The Commonwealth of Israel to be added to the MJ Statement of Faith? (bis)

[janwoG]

I have reopened this thread under the tag debate for MJ’s only because I was informed that the tag MJ only would prevent some to debate my thread what is against my intention:
We acknowledge the Commonwealth of Israel which includes the Kahal Yeshua (Messianic Gentiles and Jews), the Pauline Church covered by the blood covenant of Yeshua who are grafted in the Olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17) and the broken branches of Israel (unbelieving Jews) (Romans 11:24)
We hope and expect the return of Yeshua Ha Mashiach to establish His Thousand Year Kingdom in Zion (Rev. 20.4) At this opportunity, whole Israel will have the possibility to be saved ( Romans 11:26)
As additional remark (may not to be included into the Statement of Faith), Messianic Gentiles find their identity in Yeshua Ha Yehud Meshichim Gadol ( Yeshua the Messianic Jew the Great) as spiritual Messianic Jew. Pauline Christians, as long as they are not aware of and endorse this identity are psychologically incomplete members of the Commonwealth of Israel.
To Lulav:
I would not vote for this, for many reasons…
I would be grateful if you could elaborate the reasons.
I think it would be important for MJ to develop a Messianic Creed since some members of our MJ forum are unhappy with the Nicene Creed. The Nicene Creed has been developed for finding a common denominator for the sheer diversity of Christianity. The Nicene Creed is the common ground and the base to allow ecumenism. For my part, I would change the item “We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.” We believe in the Commonwealth of Israel…”
The community of Messianic Judaism is also diverse and need a common denominator. I feel unease about the necessity to protect the Jewish Identity with regard to Messianic Gentiles although we are one in the Messiah. In the future, if Heaven allows me, I will write an apology of the One Law Theology. Finally, Ha Mashiach will decide who is Messianic Jew and who is not in due time.
However, in the present situation, I understand the necessity for some congregations to remain as Jewish as possible since the focus of their ministry is to bring the gospel to Jews and too many gentiles may decrease their credibility. On another side, I sympathize with Torah observant Gentiles who are following their call. Some Hebrew Christians find them ridicule. I appeal on those who know better to help them to be truer and more natural Torah observant.
I find the Divine Invitation is presently tactically the only way to minister the classical Christianity on her Hebrew Root, because of the Anti- Torah resistance within this Church. Focus on Ministry of Classical Christianity is an urgent concern since the “Shoah effect” is rapidly decreasing.
Ecumenism between the various Messianic Congregations is of eminent importance since it is a Mitzwot of Yeshua :
Yeshua prayed for his disciples and I report part of his prayer:
I ask not only on behalf of these (his disciples) but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one. As you Father are in me .and I am in You, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that You have sent me. (John 17.20)

Love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John, 13.31)
Almost two millennia of Christian History, the majority of nominal Christians constantly despised this commandment and hate each other resulting in divisions and numerous wars. These divisions contributed largely to the expansion of Islam in the Christian lands.

 

[Avodat]

I have reopened this thread under the tag debate for MJ’s only because I was informed that the tag MJ only would prevent some to debate my thread what is against my intention:
We acknowledge the Commonwealth of Israel which includes the Kahal Yeshua (Messianic Gentiles and Jews), the Pauline Church covered by the blood covenant of Yeshua who are grafted in the Olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17) and the broken branches of Israel (unbelieving Jews) (Romans 11:24)
We hope and expect the return of Yeshua Ha Mashiach to establish His Thousand Year Kingdom in Zion (Rev. 20.4) At this opportunity, whole Israel will have the possibility to be saved ( Romans 11:26)
As additional remark (may not to be included into the Statement of Faith), Messianic Gentiles find their identity in Yeshua Ha Yehud Meshichim Gadol ( Yeshua the Messianic Jew the Great) as spiritual Messianic Jew. Pauline Christians, as long as they are not aware of and endorse this identity are psychologically incomplete members of the Commonwealth of Israel.
To Lulav:
I would not vote for this, for many reasons…
I would be grateful if you could elaborate the reasons.
I think it would be important for MJ to develop a Messianic Creed since some members of our MJ forum are unhappy with the Nicene Creed. The Nicene Creed has been developed for finding a common denominator for the sheer diversity of Christianity. The Nicene Creed is the common ground and the base to allow ecumenism. For my part, I would change the item “We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.” We believe in the Commonwealth of Israel…”
The community of Messianic Judaism is also diverse and need a common denominator. I feel unease about the necessity to protect the Jewish Identity with regard to Messianic Gentiles although we are one in the Messiah. In the future, if Heaven allows me, I will write an apology of the One Law Theology. Finally, Ha Mashiach will decide who is Messianic Jew and who is not in due time.
However, in the present situation, I understand the necessity for some congregations to remain as Jewish as possible since the focus of their ministry is to bring the gospel to Jews and too many gentiles may decrease their credibility. On another side, I sympathize with Torah observant Gentiles who are following their call. Some Hebrew Christians find them ridicule. I appeal on those who know better to help them to be truer and more natural Torah observant.
I find the Divine Invitation is presently tactically the only way to minister the classical Christianity on her Hebrew Root, because of the Anti- Torah resistance within this Church. Focus on Ministry of Classical Christianity is an urgent concern since the “Shoah effect” is rapidly decreasing.
Ecumenism between the various Messianic Congregations is of eminent importance since it is a Mitzwot of Yeshua :
Yeshua prayed for his disciples and I report part of his prayer:
I ask not only on behalf of these (his disciples) but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one. As you Father are in me .and I am in You, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that You have sent me. (John 17.20)

Love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John, 13.31)
Almost two millennia of Christian History, the majority of nominal Christians constantly despised this commandment and hate each other resulting in divisions and numerous wars. These divisions contributed largely to the expansion of Islam in the Christian lands.

Not sure where to start with the many difficulties in this OP.

Maybe, to start off, I would like to know: what is a 'Pauline' Church? I've never heard of it in many years as a Christian and over 20 as a Minister. The vast majority are clearly Jesus Churches (to one extent or another I admit). I've never heard of a Church that has been built around just a handful of letters from the latter part of The Book.

The Nicene Creed wasn't founded just to allow ecumenism, it was founded to state the minimum that those who take the title of Christian should hold to, in order to prevent a watering down of the basic tenets of the faith (although nowadays it seems you can believe, or disbelieve, anything - and many do!). That is rather different. There are in existence other Creeds, written at varying times, so why change just the Nicene Creed? As we have not defined what the Commonwealth of Israel actually is, I cannot see any benefit in removing the sentence 'one holy catholic and apostolic Church', unless you mis-understand the use of the word catholic, as many do. It has nothing to do with a denomination headquartered in Roma.

Btw. Just a minor correction to why it is better to use this tag. If you want only MJ's to debate an issue the tag you have used here is correct.

 

[janwoG]

To Avodat
Pauline Church is the non-Messianic Church according to our understanding of Messianic.

 

[Avodat]

To Avodat
Pauline Church is the non-Messianic Church according to our understanding of Messianic.

Does that include, or exclude, Messianics who include Paul's writings, which is what I assume you are attempting to address in a very obscure way? What happened to your comment that you actually meant Traditional Christian Churches - still ambiguous but at least we know what you meant!

To what does 'our' refer?

You haven't commented on what I said about your proposed change to the Nicene (and other) Creeds?

 

[janwoG]

To Avodat
Does that include, or exclude, Messianics who include Paul's writings
The Commonwealth of Israel as well gentiles grafted in the Olive Tree (Israel) , the salvation of the whole of Israel are also Paul’s teaching. The Commonwealth of Israel include alls believers of Yeshua plus the broken branches of the Olive Tree to be grafted back at the latest upon the return of Mashiach are also from Paul.
You haven't commented on what I said about your proposed change to the Nicene (and other) Creeds?
The concept of Church does not focus of the Jewish aspect of Yeshua nor includes the Jewish non-believers. As you see I am also pro Shaul but with a different focus to that of the Classical Church.

 

[Avodat]

To Avodat
Does that include, or exclude, Messianics who include Paul's writings
The Commonwealth of Israel as well gentiles grafted in the Olive Tree (Israel) , the salvation of the whole of Israel are also Paul’s teaching. The Commonwealth of Israel include alls believers of Yeshua plus the broken branches of the Olive Tree to be grafted back at the latest upon the return of Mashiach are also from Paul.
You haven't commented on what I said about your proposed change to the Nicene (and other) Creeds?
The concept of Church does not focus of the Jewish aspect of Yeshua nor includes the Jewish non-believers. As you see I am also pro Shaul but with a different focus to that of the Classical Church.

1. Who has defined this 'Commonwealth of Israel' - which Jewish & Messianic bodies have agreed it?

2. The concept of Judaism doesn't focus on Yeshua, either, so are all Jews who do not believe in Yeshua also cast out from this Commonwealth of Israel?

3. Why does the term 'holy, catholic and apostolic' Church need to be replaced? The Church is actually meant to be separate, gathered and mission oriented, which is what those terms mean.

 

[yedida]

1. Who has defined this 'Commonwealth of Israel' - which Jewish & Messianic bodies have agreed it?

2. The concept of Judaism doesn't focus on Yeshua, either, so are all Jews who do not believe in Yeshua also cast out from this Commonwealth of Israel?

3. Why does the term 'holy, catholic and apostolic' Church need to be replaced? The Church is actually meant to be separate, gathered and mission oriented, which is what those terms mean.

I can't say what anyone else means when they refer to "creeds" of any sort, I can only tell you my knee-jerk reaction: all the atrocities that have taken place in the "name" of christ under those creeds!
I realize that the few men who created these creeds may not have had those things in mind (but I'm not fully convinced of this), but that's what happened. I want no part of it.
Some things I have no say in what I inherited, some things I do - and that's one of them.

And, as for the "pauline churches," here in the states, that's pretty much what we call "grace-only, law-nailed-to-the-cross" theology churches. Take a trip through GT, and meet a few of such adherants. There's bunches.

 

[Avodat]

I can't say what anyone else means when they refer to "creeds" of any sort, I can only tell you my knee-jerk reaction: all the atrocities that have taken place in the "name" of christ under those creeds!
I realize that the few men who created these creeds may not have had those things in mind (but I'm not fully convinced of this), but that's what happened. I want no part of it.
Some things I have no say in what I inherited, some things I do - and that's one of them.

And, as for the "pauline churches," here in the states, that's pretty much what we call "grace-only, law-nailed-to-the-cross" theology churches. Take a trip through GT, and meet a few of such adherants. There's bunches.

Do note I said the Church is supposed to be. That is what the statement means. I wasn't around when all this rubbish was happening - I just have to put up with history being bandied around as if it our fault today :o. That is one MAJOR failing in the Messianic Movement, much, much more than in Judaism in my experience. I seriously believe that if all that had never happened it would have to be invented to give people something to keep kvetching about!

I don't see much about the Jews fighting with the Germans in the 1st world war being thrust at them at every opportunity.

 

[GuardianShua]

Not sure where to start with the many difficulties in this OP.

Maybe, to start off, I would like to know: what is a 'Pauline' Church? I've never heard of it in many years as a Christian and over 20 as a Minister. The vast majority are clearly Jesus Churches (to one extent or another I admit). I've never heard of a Church that has been built around just a handful of letters from the latter part of The Book.

The Nicene Creed wasn't founded just to allow ecumenism, it was founded to state the minimum that those who take the title of Christian should hold to, in order to prevent a watering down of the basic tenets of the faith (although nowadays it seems you can believe, or disbelieve, anything - and many do!). That is rather different. There are in existence other Creeds, written at varying times, so why change just the Nicene Creed? As we have not defined what the Commonwealth of Israel actually is, I cannot see any benefit in removing the sentence 'one holy catholic and apostolic Church', unless you mis-understand the use of the word catholic, as many do. It has nothing to do with a denomination headquartered in Roma.

Btw. Just a minor correction to why it is better to use this tag. If you want only MJ's to debate an issue the tag you have used here is correct.

2000 years ago Cath was a sun goddess in Italy. So what do you think "pertaining to the Cath" means?

 

[Avodat]

?

 

[visionary]

I think the OP attempt of making sure that Commonwealth of Israel needing defining here on this part of the forum might be a good idea.

There will be a lot of here and there in this thread, but I believe that focus would be good.

 

[GuardianShua]

?

The sun goddess Cath is where we get the words Cathode Ray and catheter. I wonder if we have been lied to!

2000 years ago Cath was a sun goddess in Italy. So what do you think "pertaining to the Cath" means?

 

[janwoG]

To Avodat
The Commonwealth of Israel is explained for instance in the book of “Grafted In” by D. Thommas Lancaster edited by the First Fruit of Zion. This organization works closely with UMJC - Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations.

 

[yedida]

To Avodat
The Commonwealth of Israel is explained for instance in the book of “Grafted In” by D. Thommas Lancaster edited by the First Fruit of Zion. This organization works closely with UMJC - Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations.

Yep, one of the abc groups that wants to define us.....

 

[GuardianShua]

Yep, one of the abc groups that wants to define us.....

That can be good or bad, or even both. Too often people who what to make the rules know the least about the subject of any matter. They can't win a logical argument, so they make rules. That is most often true. That is what may be called social engineering.

 

[Avodat]

The sun goddess Cath is where we get the words Cathode Ray and catheter. I wonder if we have been lied to!

2000 years ago Cath was a sun goddess in Italy. So what do you think "pertaining to the Cath" means?

You have an over-active imagination!

 

[Avodat]

To Avodat
The Commonwealth of Israel is explained for instance in the book of “Grafted In” by D. Thommas Lancaster edited by the First Fruit of Zion. This organization works closely with UMJC - Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations.

I've never heard of the guy, though I know of the group. I see he published the book 7 years ago through MJRI.

What I was asking was: how widely is this defining statement accepted by Jews and Messianics?

FFOZ, although liked by a number of people, is hardly representative of a wide range of Jews and Messianics, neither is UMJC.

 

[GuardianShua]

You have an over-active imagination!

So then you believe there was no such thing as a sun goddess Cath?

 

[Avodat]

So then you believe there was no such thing as a sun goddess Cath?

Didn't say that. Just because a word happens to start with a particular set of letters does not mean that someone purposely thought of some pagan god from several millennia ago and thought to themselves, I know, lets call this after that god, or let's use that name for this purpose. That is a ludicrous idea. On the basis of how your mind worked on that there may have been an obscure pagan god called Gua - ergo, you are a pagan, yes?

 

[Avodat]

I think the OP attempt of making sure that Commonwealth of Israel needing defining here on this part of the forum might be a good idea.

There will be a lot of here and there in this thread, but I believe that focus would be good.

We've been there before. Just before I joined you and another poster fought tooth and nail to reject any idea of setting down just the very basic, common characteristics of a Messianic, for research purposes, in a very bitter battle with a poster who is now no longer with us!

Even on this thread another post has commented on people trying to define us.

It clearly doesn't, and will not, work.