For JWs and LDS

[strangertoo]

I haven't missed any point, nor am I pre-judging. The Bible says that we only have hope for salvation during this life.

But I just showed you it doesn't ... so please show me where you think it does ...

And it also says that salvation is by grace, not works, so clearly, I am not misunderstanding, misrepresenting, missing the point or anything else of that nature.

Again you are not being careful about context, salvation by grace is only in this life , salvation by works [Rev 20:13] is after the resurrection of the unjust, in the next life, in the kingdom come... else how do you think that countless many destroyed in this earth [Matt 7:13] are later saved [Rev 7:9-10] when only few find the way now [Matt 7:14] ?

I am also not prejudging since I am only reporting what the Bible says, not making any judgments of my own.

it is your use of the word 'unbelievers' to refer to others which is a false judgement , a prejudgement ... this is NOT the time when God judges who are the few fit to rule and minister in the kingdom and who are the many who will be ministered to in the mass salvation in the righteous kingdom... rather obviously the righteous many will be saved at judgement day , not condemned for sin in this life ... death frees man from sin , it has a purpose for God, and surely you see that death is just as effective as grace, but actually saves vastly more people than the few saved now ... read, learn... realise sinners have it wrong because they cannot know God , stop listening to sinners in frocks and on the web... even stop sinning and God will teach Himself as the new covenant says[Heb 8:10-11] and Jesus says [John 16:13] ... then you will no longer be fooled by sinners as all the world will be -Rev 13:3-4 and of course no-one gets into the kingdom as a sinner , grace is only for those who stop sinning now, death frees the rest from sin [Rom 6:7]

 

[TasteForTruth]

The Bible talks about common grace, which is a different thing than the grace of salvation (the sun shines on the just and the unjust, etc.). The definition of grace is unmerited favor.

I make no such distinction, nor does LDS theology. We understand that grace is grace is grace. And it is freely given in the first place and freely given in greater abundance to those who desire it. It is not merited.

If everyone was to receive the unmerited favor of salvation, then it would not be grace. It would be something that is expected of God.

I'm sorry but this makes absolutely no sense to me. If God chooses to give all men grace, by which He saves all from an otherwise unavoidable doom, how is it that man can expect from God what he already has? And how does that make it not grace?

According to John 3:16, salvation is something that only believers receive. " ......... that whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." If you consider either the terrestrial glory or the telestial glory to be salvation, as so many here have said, it conflicts with this most basic, most oft-repeated, scripture.

I've made clear the context of salvation in this present discussion—those who inherit any kingdom of glory. You've switched to a different context of salvation—Celestial Glory—which is consistent with John 3:16. For a while you were with me there, but the heaven/hell dynamic keeps pushing back into the discussion.

 

[Rescued One]

Take is definately the correct word. The language (choice of words) you use when explaining LDS beliefs often are negative and obviously chosen to paint our beliefs in a negative light. The phrases that are used change them from our beliefs to a caricature of our beliefs - ones that are easier to mock or discredit. Perhaps tomorrow I will point one of these instances out so you can see what I mean.

You are the one who is saying negative things about me. I do not look for the negative about LDS beliefs. I choose to expose what some posters prefer to hide. I provide sources(usually LDS ones) for the material I present.

I mentioned yesterday that I would provide an example of how you posted your take on LDS beliefs rather than a straight-forward representation of them. This paragraph works nicely.

1. You have selected to state that "LDS do not work to get to the telestial kingdom . . ." While technically correct, what you have left out is that in our belief system no one has to "work" to get to the telestial kingdom.

Perhaps you are tenderhearted and forgiving and will pardon me for my wording. I inadvertantly annoyed you. I apologize. What I said was true, and I will add to that the LDS teach the following about their Telestial Kingdom.

TELESTIAL KINGDOM

These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;
But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.
Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.
These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.
These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth (Doctrine and Covenants 76:100-104).
In Mormonism the glory of the Telestial Kingdom is compared to that of the stars. People who are sent to the Telestial Kingdom will be the last to be resurrected and cannot dwell where God and Christ live. This final resurrection will take place after the Millennium.
According to the Doctrine and Covenants those who will inherit this kingdom are those who:
Rejected the gospel, the testimony of Jesus, the prophets, and the everlasting covenant.
Were liars, adulterers, murderers, thieves, and all others who flouted God's commandments.
Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial Kingdoms - Mormonism, The Mormon Church, Beliefs, & Religion - MormonWiki

 

[A New Dawn]

I make no such distinction, nor does LDS theology. We understand that grace is grace is grace. And it is freely given in the first place and freely given in greater abundance to those who desire it. It is not merited.
I'm sorry but this makes absolutely no sense to me. If God chooses to give all men grace, by which He saves all from an otherwise unavoidable doom, how is it that man can expect from God what he already has? And how does that make it not grace?

I've made clear the context of salvation in this present discussion—those who inherit any kingdom of glory. You've switched to a different context of salvation—Celestial Glory—which is consistent with John 3:16. For a while you were with me there, but the heaven/hell dynamic keeps pushing back into the discussion.

I'm just trying to see how LDS theology agrees with the Bible, as you say it does, when certain things, like John 3:16, point out just the opposite. I'm just looking for resolution of conflicting scriptures.

Can you show me in LDS scripture where it says that salvation is offered to all from the beginning? Can you show it to me in the Bible? Can you show me in LDS scripture where the lower glories are referred to as salvation?

Or, are you, as I'm recalling past discussions with past LDS, speaking about salvation from death (which mainstream Christianity does not recognize as salvation, but as resurrection)?

I'd like to say that you want to talk with me without me overlying Christian theology onto LDS theology, but at the same time, you are using redefined words to make things seem to be as they aren't. If you want to discuss LDS theology without me overlying Christian theology, then let us only use LDS words. Or let us use the real meanings of words.

 

[Rescued One]

Some Christians (those who weren't valiant enough) are forever kept from Heavenly Father's presence and are assigned to the terrestrial kingdom.

The same thing happens when you state: "Some Christians (those who weren't valiant enough) are forever kept from Heavenly Father's presence . . ."

3. Once again, you have used discriminatory language when you indicate that "some Christians" are impacted. LDS beliefs in this area apply to all people. No need to draw special attention to the sub-set of humanity who are Christian and not LDS. This will of course elicit an emotion from non-LDS Christians who will likely be prejudiced against the belief since it seems to be targeting them and no one else.

A Christian is a follower of Christ. What does mormonwiki state about the LDS Terrestrial Kingdom? Let me share that here:

Terrestrial Kingdom

These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.
These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.
Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.
These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God (Doctrine and Covenants 76:76-79).
The Terrestrial kingdom is symbolically represented as the moon. It is related to the moon because although it does not give forth as much light as the sun (Celestial), it gives more light (when viewed from earth) than the stars (Telestial). While people in the Terrestrial kingdom receive of God's glory, they cannot receive of His fullness or dwell eternally in His presence.

People will inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom for the following reasons (see Doctrine and Covenants 76:72-79):

They died without law.
They received a testimony of Christ after this life (See Spirit World), but had rejected it while on the earth.
They were honorable people who allowed themselves to be blinded by the wickedness of the world.
They were not valiant in their testimonies of Jesus Christ.
Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial Kingdoms - Mormonism, The Mormon Church, Beliefs, & Religion - MormonWiki

"They received a testimony of Christ after this life (See Spirit World), but had rejected it while on the earth...They were not valiant in their testimony of Christ." Evidently they had a testimony of Christ.


Doctrine and Covenants 76
71 And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament.

72 Behold, these are they who died without law;

73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;

74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.

75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.

76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.

77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.

78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.

79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.

80 And now this is the end of the vision which we saw of the terrestrial, that the Lord commanded us to write while we were yet in the Spirit.

4. The use of the word "kept" implies action on the part of Heavenly Father to prevent "Christians" from heaven. That is not how LDS believe. God invites all of His children to return to Him. However, He also has given us commandments which we need to obey. Your comment removes the culpability for disobedience from us and places the inescapable repercussions for our actions on God. And by doing this, it presents the LDS view of Heavenly Father as harsh, uncaring, and unfair.

They are indeed kept from the Father's Presence because they are not married for time and eternity in an LDS temple, and do not know the signs and key words, and failed to keep all the LDS commandments.

“The ordinances of the temple, the endowment and sealings, pertain to exaltation in the celestial kingdom, where the sons and daughters are. The sons and daughters are not outside in some other kingdom. The sons and daughters go into the house, belong to the household, have access to the home. ‘In my Father’s house are many mansions’ [John 14:2]. Sons and daughters have access to the home where he dwells, and you cannot receive that access until you go to the temple. Why? Because you must receive certain key words as well as make covenants by which you are able to enter. If you try to get into the house, and the door is locked, how are you going to enter, if you haven’t your key? You get your key in the temple, which will admit you.“. . . You cannot find a key on the street, for that key is never lost that will open the door that enters into our Father’s mansions. You have got to go where the key is given. And each can obtain the key, if you will; but after receiving it, you may lose it, by having it taken away from you again unless you abide by the agreement which you entered into when you went into the house of the Lord.”
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:40–41


Doctrine and Covenants 132

15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.

16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

If you believe that Heavenly Father takes no action, how is it that his wrath abides on those who don't come to the light?

How were Adam and Eve kept out of the Garden of Eden?

 

[Ran77]

You are the one who is saying negative things about me. I do not look for the negative about LDS beliefs. I choose to expose what some posters prefer to hide. I provide sources(usually LDS ones) for the material I present.

Actually, all of my comments focused on the wording that was used. The words that are chosen in any communication determine the tone of that message. If you give me a paragraph, I can create a good number of variations that deliver the same basic information, but convey radically different tones. All I have done here is point out the sublte inflections that are carried with the words you chose to use to represent this particular LDS belief. And none of it included negative comments about you.

I focused on the message - not the person.

Perhaps you are tenderhearted and forgiving and will pardon me for my wording. I inadvertantly annoyed you. I apologize. What I said was true, and I will add to that the LDS teach the following about their Telestial Kingdom.

No need for any pardon. My feelings were not affected in any way. However, what you said was not true, as I pointed out. What you offer is not what LDS teach. You offer what they teach filtered through eagerness to disprove the Church. There are subtle, and sometimes not so subtle, alterations made to our beliefs that often change them into something we do not believe. At the very least, they are altered into someting intended to be unappealing to the mainstream Christians.

It's okay with me if you do that. Just expect that I will point out where those comments fail to represent our beliefs.

TELESTIAL KINGDOM

These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;
But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.
Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.
These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.
These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth (Doctrine and Covenants 76:100-104).
In Mormonism the glory of the Telestial Kingdom is compared to that of the stars. People who are sent to the Telestial Kingdom will be the last to be resurrected and cannot dwell where God and Christ live. This final resurrection will take place after the Millennium.
According to the Doctrine and Covenants those who will inherit this kingdom are those who:
Rejected the gospel, the testimony of Jesus, the prophets, and the everlasting covenant.
Were liars, adulterers, murderers, thieves, and all others who flouted God's commandments.
Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial Kingdoms - Mormonism, The Mormon Church, Beliefs, & Religion - MormonWiki

Excellent. Thank you for providing that. It goes along nicely with what I have alread commented on the subject. Notice the part that I have bolded. The Telestial is for they who will not receive the gospel. They make this choice of their own volition. It is not Heavenly Father keeping them from Heaven and it is not discriminating against any class or group of people. This definition excludes those elements that were present in your comments.

 

[A New Dawn]

You seem to have missed the point that only few are saved by grace in this life [Matt 7:14] and the many are destroyed [Matt 7:13] , but the many are freed from sin by its only wages , not punishment, but death which frees them from sin just as effectively as grace [Rom 6:7]

and indeed countless many are later saved through all being resurrected from hell [Rev 20:13] to be judged at judgement day by WORKS after death frees them from sin ... so very clearly the many are NOT judged by grace, NOT CONDEMNED by judgement based on grace to the few saved first by belief in this life...

in short anyone can BECOME a believer in Love and Jesus states that countless many will by judgement day, but only few are taken with him to build the kingdom come where the many are later saved, God requires but a few as kings and priests, most cannot be kings and priests rather obviously...

thus we know the many later saved [Rev 7:9-10] were indeed unbelieving sinners in this life, and we know they are not condemned for sin in this life, just justly judged NOT READY to Love yet because they are still ssinning, still abusing others with sin by time of their death [or time of Jesus' return if sooner than death]

also it is not John, but you , who is pre-judging ... there are still folsk who don't yet believe in Love who can change their mind and ways before Jesus returns... it is not sinners in churches who decide who will believe by time of Jesus' return... they should judge their own sins first, then they would not need judgement, and forget about pronouncing anyone else an 'unbeliever' before the time for such decision BY GOD , not men... consider how few Jesus takes, about one in three million alive today... consider how many disagree right down to individual beliefs, so are not even baptised of the spirit, cannot yet be saved as they cannot enter the kingdom... it is almost all the world -Rev 13:3-4 which obviously includes all mass religions...

But I just showed you it doesn't ... so please show me where you think it does ...



Again you are not being careful about context, salvation by grace is only in this life , salvation by works [Rev 20:13] is after the resurrection of the unjust, in the next life, in the kingdom come... else how do you think that countless many destroyed in this earth [Matt 7:13] are later saved [Rev 7:9-10] when only few find the way now [Matt 7:14] ?

You didn't show me anything except a lot of really out-of-context verses.

In your post above, Matthew 7:14 is accurate, but I'd highly suggest you offer some proof that those who die are released from the wages of sin, so that they are judged according to their works at the final judgment and found to be believers. The final judgment is only for unbelievers, as the believers will have already been caught up to heaven. Can you give us some scriptural proof that the judgment will find any of the unbelievers who died (not in Christ) to be able to pass into salvation, when salvation is for believers? They will be judged according to their works, but they will not be believers, or they would not be there being judged. When the Bible says that only believers will be saved, you can't have it both ways!

it is your use of the word 'unbelievers' to refer to others which is a false judgement

The term "unbeliever" is an observation, not a judgment. And it is an observation in the abstract. I have no idea who are believers and who are unbelievers.

 

[Rescued One]

What you offer is not what LDS teach.

You may suggest that; however, many of us know that I present what LDS teach.

You offer what they teach filtered through eagerness to disprove the Church.

Here you are pretending to know my motives. Those are not my motives. What am I proving or disproving? I simply share LDS teachings that contradict the teachings of evangelical Christianity.

There are subtle, and sometimes not so subtle, alterations made to our beliefs that often change them into something we do not believe.

There are not alterations made to LDS teachings. Your accusation doesn't stand.

At the very least, they are altered into someting intended to be unappealing to the mainstream Christians.

You are pretending that you know my intentions.

It's okay with me if you do that. Just expect that I will point out where those comments fail to represent our beliefs.

It would be very pleasant if you stuck to LDS teachings rather than making accusations about other posters.

 

[TasteForTruth]

I'm just trying to see how LDS theology agrees with the Bible, as you say it does, when certain things, like John 3:16, point out just the opposite. I'm just looking for resolution of conflicting scriptures.

Yes, I know. I did resolve it in my last post (the John 3:16 "problem"). Although now that I think about it, that scripture could be applied in LDS theology at least two ways. In the first, it would apply to all people born on earth, and in the second, only to those who enter the Celestial Kingdom. But let's not go there until we get the material that follows squared away...

Can you show me in LDS scripture where it says that salvation is offered to all from the beginning?

From birth until a person becomes accountable for his actions before God, every person who is born into mortality, without variation, is in a condition fit for the Celestial Kingdom through the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ. He removes from them the "curse of Adam," and they can neither sin nor need to repent or be baptized.:

Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.
9 And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn mockery before God, that ye should baptize little children.
10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children.
11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.
12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!
13 Wherefore, if little children could not be saved without baptism, these must have gone to an endless hell.
14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.
15 For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism.
16 Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, I speak with boldness, having authority from God; and I fear not what man can do; for perfect love casteth out all fear.
17 And I am filled with charity, which is everlasting love; wherefore, all children are alike unto me; wherefore, I love little children with a perfect love; and they are all alike and partakers of salvation.
18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.
19 Little children cannot repent; wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them, for they are all alive in him because of his mercy.
20 And he that saith that little children need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption.
21 Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment. I speak it boldly; God hath commanded me. Listen unto them and give heed, or they stand against you at the judgment-seat of Christ.
22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—
23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.
​

It is worth noting that all those who are without law are also saved. And to be clear, the law spoken of here is the same law spoken of in 2 Ne. 2:5:

And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil. And the law is given unto men. And by the law no flesh is justified; or, by the law men are cut off.
​

This law by which men are instructed sufficiently on good and evil is the light of Christ. And it is the same power of judgment as that spoken of in Moroni 7:16,18:

For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil;

And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.
​

So not only are babies and little children saved in their condition, but those who reach the age of accountability but are yet without law—meaning those who cannot comprehend good and evil through the light of Christ (the severely mentally disabled, for example)—are also saved by the grace and mercy of Christ.

In LDS theology, there is not one soul born to this earth but who is saved, in the highest sense of the word, when he gets here. We are saved by default.

Can you show it to me in the Bible?

Nowhere in the Bible is the doctrine of children being saved spelled out in the detail seen in the Book of Mormon. The truth is still there, though:

Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 19:14)
​

When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. (Mark 2:17)
​

Can you show me in LDS scripture where the lower glories are referred to as salvation?

These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial; And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial. And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation. (D&C 76:86-88)
​

With the single exception being the sons of Perdition, every soul ever born into this world will be given a measure of salvation in a kingdom of glory.

Or, are you, as I'm recalling past discussions with past LDS, speaking about salvation from death (which mainstream Christianity does not recognize as salvation, but as resurrection)?

Salvation from death and salvation in some kingdom of glory are absolutely synonymous. The one exception, again, is the sons of perdition, who are resurrected bodily, but who are not saved spiritually in any measure. They are the only ones over whom the second death has any power:

They are they who are the sons of perdition...
...And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power; (D&C 76:32,37)
​

I'd like to say that you want to talk with me without me overlying Christian theology onto LDS theology, but at the same time, you are using redefined words to make things seem to be as they aren't.

No. I reject your implication here. I am using every single one of these terms as LDS understand them. I am making no attempt to merge LDS theology with traditional Christian terms. If additional clarification is needed from time to time, I am very willing to stop the discussion and do that. I would prefer to do that.

If you want to discuss LDS theology without me overlying Christian theology, then let us only use LDS words. Or let us use the real meanings of words.

I am using LDS words. And I'm doing my best to make their context clear when I use them. So if I'm saying that A is A and you're hearing A is B, it's not that I'm trying to confuse or deceive you, nor is it that I'm crazy, nor is it that LDS theology doesn't make sense. It just means that we need to stop momentarily and clarify a term or something.

 

[TasteForTruth]

Excellent. Thank you for providing that. It goes along nicely with what I have alread commented on the subject. Notice the part that I have bolded. The Telestial is for they who will not receive the gospel. They make this choice of their own volition. It is not Heavenly Father keeping them from Heaven and it is not discriminating against any class or group of people. This definition excludes those elements that were present in your comments.

That is an excellent point. Everyone will bow the knee and confess the Christ, but not all will receive Him. Not even in the end. (see D&C 76:110)

 

[Ran77]

That is an excellent point. Everyone will bow the knee and confess the Christ, but not all will receive Him. Not even in the end. (see D&C 76:110)

Exactly.

 

[strangertoo]

Exactly.
Originally Posted by TasteForTruth

That is an excellent point. Everyone will bow the knee and confess the Christ, but not all will receive Him. Not even in the end. (see D&C 76:110)
​

<edit>

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

everyone will accept Jesus according to Jesus<edit>
Jesus rule of Love will just keep spreading until all accept the kingdom of Christ, kingdom of God , of Love, no more abuse of folks with sin :-

Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgement and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

<edit>
1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

[those who believe now being the one's God uses as priests and kings in the kingdom in the later salvation of those many, almost all [Rev 13:3-4] who are destroyed in this earth Matt 7:13, all still sinners by time of Jesus' return..., but their spirit cannot be destroyed , as Jesus says, countless many are saved later [Rev 7:9-10] ,not just the few who find the way now [Matt 7:14] ... ALL are freed from hell [Rev 20:13], and hell and death are destroyed... so clearly hell is not endless and there is no way out of life by death, by ending, so indeed all accept Jesus and are translated , just the same as the few who are saved in this world to begin the salvation of men... a power process then, as the first few are used to craete the kingdom and so minister later as priests and kings... just consider whom they serve

Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

clearly God does not have dominion over sinners, Satan does... for God commands Love, sin is not Love ,but unloving abuse of others and oneself...

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Jesus came to destroy sin<edit>

 

[TasteForTruth]

Jesus does not agree though<edit>

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

everyone will accept Jesus according to Jesus<edit>
Jesus rule of Love will just keep spreading until all accept the kingdom of Christ, kingdom of God , of Love, no more abuse of folks with sin :-

Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgement and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

<edit>
1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

[those who believe now being the one's God uses as priests and kings in the kingdom in the later salvation of those many, almost all [Rev 13:3-4] who are destroyed in this earth Matt 7:13, all still sinners by time of Jesus' return..., but their spirit cannot be destroyed , as Jesus says, countless many are saved later [Rev 7:9-10] ,not just the few who find the way now [Matt 7:14] ... ALL are freed from hell [Rev 20:13], and hell and death are destroyed... so clearly hell is not endless and there is no way out of life by death, by ending, so indeed all accept Jesus and are translated , just the same as the few who are saved in this world to begin the salvation of men... a power process then, as the first few are used to craete the kingdom and so minister later as priests and kings... just consider whom they serve

Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

clearly God does not have dominion over sinners, Satan does... for God commands Love, sin is not Love ,but unloving abuse of others and oneself...

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Jesus came to destroy sin<edit>

If God does not have dominion over sinners, but Satan does, how is it that every creature accepts Christ? That would include those who follow Satan. You've lost me.

 

[he-man]

If God does not have dominion over sinners, but Satan does, how is it that every creature accepts Christ? That would include those who follow Satan. You've lost me.

If God does not have dominion over everything then a false belief in making a scape goat for sins is redundant!

Act 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every person, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

 

[Ran77]

You may suggest that; however, many of us know that I present what LDS teach.

I have done more that suggest it; I have pointed out how the language used in your comments have altered the LDS beliefs to a point where they no longer acurrately reflect what we actually believe. And you have posted quotes from LDS sources that reinforce my observations. The language in those sources remains consistent with what I presented and different from what you presented. I think that speaks for itself.

Here you are pretending to know my motives. Those are not my motives. What am I proving or disproving? I simply share LDS teachings that contradict the teachings of evangelical Christianity.

Oops. I had intended to stated that "I suspect" this to be the case. I don't know your motive. I don't care why you alter the wording in our beliefs to give it a different feel / meaning. I just plan on pointing it out when it happens. And I have.

There are not alterations made to LDS teachings. Your accusation doesn't stand.

So you say. When you actually post from LDS sources the language is similar to what I have used to explain LDS beliefs and differs from what you have offered. If that isn't evidence that my comments are accurate, then I'm not sure what would constitute such proof. Still, I have no interest in convincing you. My comments are intended for those who are willing to take a look at the topic subjectively. For them, I believe I have made a compelling argument.

You are pretending that you know my intentions.

Nope. I have no idea what your intentions are. I just am able to observe the alterations in our beliefs that are based on how you change the language used to explain them.

It would be very pleasant if you stuck to LDS teachings rather than making accusations about other posters.

Stating that I plan to point out errors in LDS beliefs that are posted by others is all about sticking to LDS teachings. That is the whole point - to allow people to know what the LDS beliefs are and what they are not. I'm afraid you are confusing comments made about the content of the post with comments made about the person making those comments.

 

[Ran77]

"They received a testimony of Christ after this life (See Spirit World), but had rejected it while on the earth...They were not valiant in their testimony of Christ." Evidently they had a testimony of Christ.

I'm sorry, I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. The quote states they gained a testimony. And it indicates that they gained that testimony after this life. I'm sure even in your belief system the recognize that judgment is based on what we do in this life and not in the afterlife. So, what is the problem here?

They are indeed kept from the Father's Presence because they are not married for time and eternity in an LDS temple, and do not know the signs and key words, and failed to keep all the LDS commandments.

If they are not married for time and eternity it is because they choose not do do so. All of us are invited to participate. Those that reject the invitation have kept themselves from His presence.

If you believe that Heavenly Father takes no action, how is it that his wrath abides on those who don't come to the light?

How were Adam and Eve kept out of the Garden of Eden?

Actually, you have altered my comment. I haven't stated that Heavenly Father takes no actions at all. I spoke about a specific situation. He takes no action which prevents us from accepting His invitation. That is our choice. He is not discriminating against any groups of humanity. His invitation is given to all mankind. Obviously, He has acted when He invited us to particpate in His goodness and to return unto Him. He acts when He helps the missionary work along or softens our hearts so that we can better understand the Plan of Salvation. My comment is limited to pointing out that God takes no action which prevents us from using our free will to make choices.

 

[strangertoo]

If God does not have dominion over sinners, but Satan does, how is it that every creature accepts Christ? That would include those who follow Satan. You've lost me.

Read Ezekiel 28, the death of Satan as a man for blasphemy [2Thess 2:4]

that is Satan locked away for a thousand years with all sinners of this earth, dead in hell [not master of hell as in Dante's fiction of common misbelief] :-

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years

The few saints [Jude 1:14] and Jesus free of trial by temptation and of all sinners for a thousand years to buld the kingdom come , righteous to love , in the new earth , to be later kings and priests when all who died sinners are resurrected from hell [Rev 20:13] to be judged by works [Rev 20:13] after death has freed all from sin [Rom 6:7] ...

we know few are saved in this earth [Matt 7:14, Jude 1:14, Rev 7:3-8] and the rest, the whole earth , destroyed [Matt 7:13, 2 Peter 3:10] for wages of sin [because sin is removed in resurrection to a new body by means of one's spirit] ... so equally it proves that the spirit of a man cannot be destroyed, because it is of God, so always returns to God [one cannot destroy God] :-

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

thus we find that of the many destroyed in this earth, countless many are later saved by means of their spirit resurrected to a new viable body in the new earth kingdom come , free of sin by death , so freed to listen to God

-,so God finally can baptise all flesh -Joel 2:28 -freeing them from being deceived by Satan by God's Truth defeating Satan's wiles [John 16:13] Jesus' witness - many LATER saved Rev 7:9-10

but only few saved in this earth and the many destroyed [Matt 7:13-14] ... so religion of the many is already now false , being taught by sinners, not by God [as all siants are taught by God, not men Heb 8:10-11, John 16:13],

world religion corrupted as Jesus said MUST happen before he can return...notably Rev 13:3-4, 2Thess 2

So God finally gets to teach all men His truth by FIRST giving Satan his say in this earth, then locking him and all sinners who follwo him away for a thousand years whilst God has Jesus and His few saints prepare the PROOF of the BETTER way of Love for all emn, teh kingdom come, righteous life in the new earth where sin buys one yet another death to remove sin AND remove one from corrupting the kingdom of God come to all men ...

that is how God overcomes Satans dominion over all sinners in THIS earth ... almost all men as there can only be about two thousand saints alive at any one time according to Jesus' figures and the fact that the saints never completely die out in almost two millennia since Jesus came...

that then is how convincng is Satan's subtle lies in religion and politics ['economics' is just one big lie abut robbing the poor systematically ,to transfer power to the most evil of men , under Satan most directly ]

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

there is the challenge met in the new earth buy the kingdom of Love which saves countless billions by resurrection and demonstration of Love WORKING in the kingdom come where this earth saved only tens of thousands by grace ...

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away

... obviously we need a larger earth for about twice as many people ... all resurrected from hell who ever lived...Rev 20:13

clearly too , stories by Satan of endless punishment for those whodon't believe him in mass religion now, are FALSE ... equally clearly few will now believe they are false.... even though the scripture proves it many ways ...and anyone could get the whole Truth from God Himself [John 16:13, Heb 8:10-11] simply by obeying Jesus and Loving, stopping abusing people with sin against them and oneself...

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

clearly sin is unloving, one obeys Satan, disobeys Jesus, if one abuses others with sin... Jesus does require that saints Love God and all men no matter what happens to them... that is the oNLY way for Jesus to eventually complete destruction of sin...his purpose in the twoearths which he does complete, by his witness ...

 

[Phantasman]

<edit>

Please

Both of my friends. It is not for us to judge each other about what Jesus has in mind for either of us. This frustration from both sides is not coming from a Holy source.

Romans 15:5
Now may the God of patience and comfort grant you to be like-minded toward one another, according to Christ Jesus,

Take a break. You both love the Lord.

 

[TasteForTruth]

I'm glad that I asked about your use of the term creed, and what you thought that it meant. I wouldn't call that a creed, rather I would call it traditions or doctrine. I realize that technically according to the dictionary definiton that creed can be used this way. However, my experience with the discussions here is that creed is most always used to refer to a formalized set of beliefs.

Why do you think that in JS-History 1:9 both creeds and doctrines were mentioned, if the intended meaning was that they were the same thing?




I can't answer this question until we are in agreement about our use of the term creed.

I was curious how the term creed is used by LDS leaders, as I thought that it might give a clue as to how they viewed the use of the term creed in JS-H 1:9. So I looked up some references.

Can a person be a New Testament Christian and yet not subscribe to later creeds that most of traditional Christianity adopted? source


Constantine became a Christian in the fourth century, he called together a great convocation of learned men with the hope that they could reach a conclusion of understanding concerning the true nature of Deity. All they reached was a compromise of various points of view. The result was the Nicene Creed of A.D. 325. This and subsequent creeds have become the declaration of doctrine concerning the nature of Deity for most of Christianity ever since. source


In some faith traditions, theologians claim equal teaching authority with the ecclesiastical hierarchy, and doctrinal matters may become a contest of opinions between them. Some rely on the ecumenical councils of the Middle Ages and their creeds. Others place primary emphasis on the reasoning of post-apostolic theologians or on biblical hermeneutics and exegesis. source


(Quoting Henry Van Dyke)

Men have dulled their eyes with sin,
And dimmed the light of heaven with doubt,
And built their temple walls to shut thee in,
And framed their iron creeds to shut thee out.
Addressed to God of the Open Air

source


This first article of faith epitomizes our doctrine. We do not accept the Athanasian Creed. We do not accept the Nicene Creed, nor any other creed based on tradition and the conclusions of men. source


Significantly, our belief in the nature of God is what distinguishes us from the formal creeds of most Christian denominations.

The Articles of Faith, our only formal declaration of belief, begin as follows: “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.”

source​

I hope that is enough references to make my point. I think that the one that I highlighted in crimson explains best why I do not feel that the traditions of the Pharisees were there creeds. President Hinckley mentioned creeds as being based on traditions and conclusions of men. If they were based on the tradtions of men, then they would not be the traditions themselves. (We will save the discussion of what every else believes that they were based on for another time. )

I am not trying to be overly picky. I just can't answer your question about creeds until we come to an understanding about what we are talking about.

Sorry, I missed this post.

There is a lot to respond to here. Before going further, are you suggesting that the creeds being spoken of in JS-H 1:9 are nothing more than, say, the Nicene Creed? Strictly a summary of the foundational beliefs a religion embraces?

 

[skylark1]

Sorry, I missed this post.

There is a lot to respond to here. Before going further, are you suggesting that the creeds being spoken of in JS-H 1:9 are nothing more than, say, the Nicene Creed? Strictly a summary of the foundational beliefs a religion embraces?

Yes, I think that the creeds being spoken of in JS- 1:9 were formal creeds, such as the Nicene Creed, but not limited to the Nicene Creed. If the usage of creeds in this context was intended to mean doctrine, then it wouldn't have been necessary to use the words creeds and doctrines.

There was a restoration movement at that time to return to beliefs strictly found in the Bible, that looked upon creeds as written by men and something to be avoided. They were especially looked down on by those in this movement when they were used as tests of faith; required for baptism or admittance to membership in a church. Perhaps this was on Joseph's mind when he inquired of God which church was true.