Do you wear a tallit in church?

[Frogster]

the tallit teaching fits right into the list of col 2, as another addition for "people to be spiritual by" that Paul was warding off, paul's teaching was always raised in Christ, Col 3:1, as the answer, not adding additions found in chapter 2, festivals, food stuff, tallits, which is and was being sold as an answer, while the tallit teachers don't want to tstress the real power, being raised, so thier error lies in the omission of the answer, while they point to additions, elementals of the world, Col 2:8, and 2:20, but we died to all that, raised is the answer found in Scripture for power, not tallits.

 

[New_Wineskin]

I undersdtand your point, we don't want to turn Paul into Moses, but he instructs to point to grace, it is works to think we need a garment or do shabaat to gain the Spriit, so Paul instructs against the mindset.

Yes . However , he does not instruct to go after anyone that does something that appears Jewish having no thought to it gaining them anything . In fact , he instructs against that .

 

[Frogster]

Yes . However , he does not instruct to go after anyone that does something that appears Jewish having no thought to it gaining them anything . In fact , he instructs against that .

They thought they would gain under law, paul said Christ would profit profit is (juxatposed to loss), them nothing in 5:2, surely they had to think they would gain holiness, or something, right standing etc.

 

[New_Wineskin]

They thought they would gain under law, paul said Christ would profit profit is (juxatpoed to loss), them nothing in 5:2, surely they had to think they would gain holiness, or something, right standing etc.

I am not discussing the intents of those being instructed by Paul . I am discussing those today who merely do things in rememberence of the culture in which Jesus was immersed .

Not everyone who is interested in Jewish things does so because they think that they will become more holy by doing them .

 

[Frogster]

I am not discussing the intents of those being instructed by Paul . I am discussing those today who merely do things in rememberence of the culture in which Jesus was immersed .

Not everyone who is interested in Jewish things does so because they think that they will become more holy by doing them .

now u r talking about ego confusion.
Agreed.
gentiles acting jewish.

 

[New_Wineskin]

now u r talking about ego confusion.

gentiles acting jewish.

Absolutely not .

They are not acting Jewish , at all . If they were acting Jewish , they would go all the way . Would you rather people identify more with the Greeks of that age because they were the original Gentiles in Christianity ? Or , with the Catholics who developed such an anti-semitic attitude that it eventually led to Hitler's doings ?

Paul was never against the Law - only against the attitude of those who used it the wrong way and promoted it on others without faith .

Edited - I suspect that I misread your post . It is hard to tell

 

[Frogster]

Absolutely not .

They are not acting Jewish , at all . If they were acting Jewish , they would go all the way . Would you rather people identify more with the Greeks of that age because they were the original Gentiles in Christianity ? Or , with the Catholics who developed such an anti-semitic attitude that it eventually led to Hitler's doings ?

Paul was never against the Law - only against the attitude of those who used it the wrong way and promoted it on others without faith .

Edited - I suspect that I misread your post . It is hard to tell

well..they can't go all the way, or i suspect they would, again speaking of those i encounter today.

hav u ever called them jewish wanabees here on the forum?

sorry, maybe i misunderstand u, that's why i said that, about wanabees, just to show i think we were talking the same thing?

 

[Frogster]

Absolutely not .

They are not acting Jewish , at all . If they were acting Jewish , they would go all the way . Would you rather people identify more with the Greeks of that age because they were the original Gentiles in Christianity ? Or , with the Catholics who developed such an anti-semitic attitude that it eventually led to Hitler's doings ?

Paul was never against the Law - only against the attitude of those who used it the wrong way and promoted it on others without faith .

Edited - I suspect that I misread your post . It is hard to tell

in other words, sure, don't follow grecian culture, but the answer for Paul was Abrahamic faith, pre judaism, so the instruction is what we need to heed, that was the answer for them to emulate that, not trying to act like a jew.

 

[Yitzchak]

Why do you think they would instruct against it, as I do?

I think that the Apostle Paul understood from experience the pitfalls and traps that come from having " Jewish pride ". He was brought out of that by a supernatural visitation from heaven on the road to Damascus. It bothered him that in his zeal for Judaism , he had formerly killed Christians. I don't think that Paul became anti Jewish , but I do think that he gained a healthy respect for the dangers of Jewish pride.

Gentile believers are not called to be Jewish and teaching Gentiles to keep Jewish customs would create confusion , at best and would create an unhealthy pride , at worst.

Wearing a tallit is found in the scripture in Deuteronomy and I do not think the Apostle Paul taught against Jews wearing a tallit since Jesus himself wore one and it is certainly biblical to wear one. But that commandment was given to Israel and not to the Gentiles.

To encourage it in the New Testament church can create confusion. It is one thing if it is a Jewish believer's own conscience to wear a tallit. But to a Gentile believer who is trying to connect with God through a tallit , Paul taught for them to find that connection through Christ alone and not through Jewish traditions.

The substance of the teaching of the tallit is for us to meditate on God's word and carry that mindset with us everywhere we go. It is for our to create a secret place with him in prayer where it is just God and us and all distractions are blocked out. The physical tallit itself is the shadow of that truth. It is like the circumcision. The circumcision of the heart is what God is really after.

Don't misunderstand me. I do believe God has and can still anoint objects such as a tallit. But it has to be real and from the heart and not a forced thing.

For the Apostle Paul to have sold tallits to the Gentile believers , that would have sent a confused and mixed message. But for him to sell tallits to Jewish believers who maintained that custom makes sense.

 

[New_Wineskin]

well..they can't go all the way, or i suspect they would, again speaking of those i encounter today.

hav u ever called them jewish wanabees here on the forum?

I called those who pushed the entire Law onto others as Jewish wanabees . They showed that that they were not going the whole way themselves but trying to tell others to go all the way .

That is far different than those who will attempt to do a seder once or even a few times in their lifetime or wearing a pendant with the star of David . And , none of which push it on others or even have the appearance of doing so to obtain points for salvation . People who quote from the "New Testament" do that often enough that going after these people are a minor inconvenience .

It is about * why* they do what they do - not *what* they do .

sorry, maybe i misunderstand u, that's why i said that, about wanabees, just to show i think we were talking the same thing?

We are taling about the same thing if we are discussing *only* those that push th stuff on others or have blatantly stated that they are getting something out of the ritual .

 

[New_Wineskin]

in other words, sure, don't follow grecian culture, but the answer for Paul was Abrahamic faith, pre judaism, so the instruction is what we need to heed, that was the answer for them to emulate that, not trying to act like a jew.

Again , not all who do this or that taken from the Law are attempting to be Law oriented . Jesus acted like a Jew all of His life . Paul acted like a Jew even when condemning those who pushed it on others and his warning those others of not participating with the wrong mindset .

He understood that those things did not make him righteous . He also knew that it was a part of his culture and there was nothing wrong with proceeding with it with a correct mindset .

There are so many people paranoid about circumcism . My parents were Catholic and were would go crazy that it would be too Jewish to do have it done even if it was done solely for health reasons . Regardless of whether those reasons were valid , it "appeared" Jewish and so it could not be done .

 

[someguy14]

Circumcision of the flesh is of the flesh. Circumcision is of the heart and God takes care of it. To be circumcised or not, God judges the heart and loves each of us very much. The Holy Spirit is wisdom itself and Love is the guide.

 

[Frogster]

I think that the Apostle Paul understood from experience the pitfalls and traps that come from having " Jewish pride ". He was brought out of that by a supernatural visitation from heaven on the road to Damascus. It bothered him that in his zeal for Judaism , he had formerly killed Christians. I don't think that Paul became anti Jewish , but I do think that he gained a healthy respect for the dangers of Jewish pride.

Gentile believers are not called to be Jewish and teaching Gentiles to keep Jewish customs would create confusion , at best and would create an unhealthy pride , at worst.

Wearing a tallit is found in the scripture in Deuteronomy and I do not think the Apostle Paul taught against Jews wearing a tallit since Jesus himself wore one and it is certainly biblical to wear one. But that commandment was given to Israel and not to the Gentiles.

To encourage it in the New Testament church can create confusion. It is one thing if it is a Jewish believer's own conscience to wear a tallit. But to a Gentile believer who is trying to connect with God through a tallit , Paul taught for them to find that connection through Christ alone and not through Jewish traditions.

The substance of the teaching of the tallit is for us to meditate on God's word and carry that mindset with us everywhere we go. It is for our to create a secret place with him in prayer where it is just God and us and all distractions are blocked out. The physical tallit itself is the shadow of that truth. It is like the circumcision. The circumcision of the heart is what God is really after.

Don't misunderstand me. I do believe God has and can still anoint objects such as a tallit. But it has to be real and from the heart and not a forced thing.

For the Apostle Paul to have sold tallits to the Gentile believers , that would have sent a confused and mixed message. But for him to sell tallits to Jewish believers who maintained that custom makes sense.

Hi Yitz.

well, it sounds like you agree about the mixed message?

but here is the problem in it's purest sense.

Basically when we read col 1:19-23, paul is basically stressing the cross, and the gospel as the answer, then when we jump down to 2, he then proceeds to tell then to walk , live as the found the Lord in 2:6, by faith, then there are about 7 'in Him' verses, complete in him 2:10, etc.

Then in 2:16 there is that therefore..and basically the list was things to not add on, sabby, food stuff, angel stuff, harsh treatments of the body etc.

ok, that was because since the beginning, there is always someone trying to add on something, for sanctification..grow or gain by additions, which goes against Paul, tallits can be put right in chapter 2.

yes, you talk of shadows, but paul warded off the shadows very clearly, by warding off doing the externals, because that is where fusion comes in.

So do u see how he fought circumcision externally also? Even though we were circumcised internally col 2:11?

Why didn't he want external snipping, after all, we are snipped internally?

See what I mean?

Same as he would fight tallits also, because the binding of the external is to connected to the internal, they become one, Paul fought the leaven, because this tallit teaching, and shabaat has to be fought externally,just like how he fought the external circumcision, so people don't get confused internally.

So do you see that he would view the tallit as a shadow, as u say it is, that would have to be wardded off also, along with all the other shadows?

 

[Frogster]

Again , not all who do this or that taken from the Law are attempting to be Law oriented . Jesus acted like a Jew all of His life . Paul acted like a Jew even when condemning those who pushed it on others and his warning those others of not participating with the wrong mindset .

He understood that those things did not make him righteous . He also knew that it was a part of his culture and there was nothing wrong with proceeding with it with a correct mindset .

There are so many people paranoid about circumcism . My parents were Catholic and were would go crazy that it would be too Jewish to do have it done even if it was done solely for health reasons . Regardless of whether those reasons were valid , it "appeared" Jewish and so it could not be done .

tell ya....paul had to really be careful not to by example, hold up what being a jew meant, to the gentiles, look at the wordage here, he knew very well just what "the uncircumcised" meant by way of culture and elitism, so we can't press judaism, and again, he stressed Abraham. We were the 'foreskin'..hehehe.



Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—

he then stressed that the one new man, camy after jewish law ablishment in 2:15, then in 3, went to Abraham, the gospel, one body etc, so we need to have doctrinal and cultural understanding, in the history of the unfolding church.

Paul told the galatians, he became as them in 4:12.

Then in Phil 3, he comparred all that to poop in order to know christ, do u realize what a radical statement that was?

 

[Frogster]

Again , not all who do this or that taken from the Law are attempting to be Law oriented . Jesus acted like a Jew all of His life . Paul acted like a Jew even when condemning those who pushed it on others and his warning those others of not participating with the wrong mindset .

He understood that those things did not make him righteous . He also knew that it was a part of his culture and there was nothing wrong with proceeding with it with a correct mindset .

There are so many people paranoid about circumcism . My parents were Catholic and were would go crazy that it would be too Jewish to do have it done even if it was done solely for health reasons . Regardless of whether those reasons were valid , it "appeared" Jewish and so it could not be done .

Good morning by the way.

yes, Jesus lived as a jew, but it is all about a new creation 2 cor 5:17, so do i live as jesus according to the flesh or resurrection now?


16 From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer.

 

[New_Wineskin]

tell ya....paul had to really be careful not to by example, hold up what being a jew meant, to the gentiles, look at the wordage here, he knew very well just what "the uncircumcised" meant by way of culture and elitism, so we can't press judaism, and again, he stressed Abraham. We were the 'foreskin'..hehehe.



Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—

he then stressed that the one new man, camy after jewish law ablishment in 2:15, then in 3, went to Abraham, the gospel, one body etc, so we need to have doctrinal and cultural understanding, in the history of the unfolding church.

Paul told the galatians, he became as them in 4:12.

Then in Phil 3, he comparred all that to poop in order to know christ, do u realize what a radical statement that was?

I realize quite well how radical a statement that is ... it is still a very radical statement as it is a complete rejection of Scriptural Authority . One receives the same reaction to that concept today as they would from the Jewish believers in that day .

 

[New_Wineskin]

Good morning by the way.

yes, Jesus lived as a jew, but it is all about a new creation 2 cor 5:17, so do i live as jesus according to the flesh or resurrection now?


16 From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer.

Yet , you are regarding these others in the flesh with how you go about this tallit discussion .

Jesus had no problem with the Law because He knew how to obey it without being under it . There was nothing wrong with the Law - only how one goes about using it . It isn't *what* but *why* .

Something else Paul wrote ...

0 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings.

You are doing that with the way that you go about "do not do those Jewish things" .

 

[Frogster]

Yet , you are regarding these others in the flesh with how you go about this tallit discussion .

Jesus had no problem with the Law because He knew how to obey it without being under it . There was nothing wrong with the Law - only how one goes about using it . It isn't *what* but *why* .

Something else Paul wrote ...


You are doing that with the way that you go about "do not do those Jewish things" .

and you're totally ignoring my points, about paul not wanting those additions added for spiritual growth in Col 2, and Galatians aren't you?

Are you ever finally going to debate the text? The text that on other threads you seem to want to act like we don't need when you say things like there is no scriptural authority, or you talk of accuracy issues etc, or whatever that argument is you always talk of on other threads. You are over reaching on all that, but lets debate my points here, staying on topic, and not a scriptural authority debate, the words u used in your other post above.

Now, if u wanna debate the text on it's own merit, i am more than ready. But if your mo is going to be that we can't quote the teachings of Paul, or somehow we hold up "scriptural authority", then there is no point, but if you want to go by the actual text fine.

 

[Frogster]

I realize quite well how radical a statement that is ... it is still a very radical statement as it is a complete rejection of Scriptural Authority . One receives the same reaction to that concept today as they would from the Jewish believers in that day .

and besides, read the OP, i said if one wants to wear a tallit wear it, and on the 1 cor 8 thread, i said aslk the Lord about how to dress or tattoos, I did not say thoueth canteth, but I am talking about what the Scripture says, when one tries to do these additions, to gain growth, or righteousness, as per paul.

 

[New_Wineskin]

and you're totally ignoring my points, about paul not wanting those additions added for spiritual growth in Col 2, and Galatians aren't you?

*I* am the one bringing those points up and *you* are the one ignoring them . You are rejecting the idea that not all people do things "added for spiritual growth" just because you don't like them . You look at the outward things and assume inward things are happening .

Are you ever finally going to debate the text?

You have had no text to debate since *I* am the one bringing it up .