If abortion isn't murder...

[ThatRobGuy]

...if someone punched a pregnant woman in the stomach and caused her to have a miscarriage, should they only get the basic assault charge that one would get if she wasn't pregnant at all?

 

[Dave Ellis]

If an abortion is murder, do you support the idea that a woman who gets an abortion should also get 25 years to life in jail?

 

[saffron park]

If an abortion is murder, do you support the idea that a woman who gets an abortion should also get 25 years to life in jail?

I'm reasonably sure that most pro-lifers regard the aborticians as having the most guilt.

 

[Dave Ellis]

I'm reasonably sure that most pro-lifers regard the aborticians as having the most guilt.

So someone who hires someone to kill someone else is not guilty of a crime?

Charles Manson hasn't ever killed anyone.... he just had his followers do the work.

Going by legal precedent, if abortion is murder, then the woman is also complicit in that murder, and would be charged not only with 1st degree, but with conspiracy as well.

 

[Gadarene]

Erm....because you don't know if the person is carrying a baby they want to keep, so it's probably a good idea to have some kind of penalty for falcon-punching ladies in the pregnancy?

Just because an abortion isn't murder doesn't mean that penalising someone for an assault that may kill a pregnancy is.

 

[keith99]

If shooting an individual who has broken into yuor home isn't murder, then guning down people in Times Square isn't murder!

Reducio ad absurdium.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Erm....because you don't know if the person is carrying a baby they want to keep, so it's probably a good idea to have some kind of penalty for falcon-punching ladies in the pregnancy?

Just because an abortion isn't murder doesn't mean that penalising someone for an assault that may kill a pregnancy is.

This is more along the lines of the question I was asking.

Since many pro-choice folks have said that they agree with abortions up to the 20 week mark since a woman has the right to change her mind up until that point and the fetus is nothing more than an appendage...if this incident happened at the 16 week mark, there's reasonable doubt about whether or not she was actually going to end up keeping it therefore should a person be punished beyond what they would be punished if they, say, knocked out a tooth?

 

[Gadarene]

This is more along the lines of the question I was asking.

Since many pro-choice folks have said that they agree with abortions up to the 20 week mark since a woman has the right to change her mind up until that point and the fetus is nothing more than an appendage

I think you'll find it's a little more complicated than that.

...if this incident happened at the 16 week mark, there's reasonable doubt about whether or not she was actually going to end up keeping it therefore should a person be punished beyond what they would be punished if they, say, knocked out a tooth?

But that's the point, the doubt isn't sufficient to justify a different sentence. You don't know for sure whether it would have killed a wanted pregnancy or not. We do also grade assault depending on the level of damage, so knocking out a tooth is not even comparable with other forms of assault that don't result in a pregnancy being killed.

I'd also dispute that it's reasonable doubt - the statistics would vary a lot depending on where you were, and at what current laws permit, what local economics dictate, etc.

If someone is visibly and undoubtedly pregnant, chances are they're probably within spitting distance of the elective abortion limit at any rate, so this seems like a fairly obtuse argument. It's not treated as murder, which is consistent with the statement that...abortion isn't murder. That doesn't mean we think that it's like totes ok to go around punching people in the gut. People don't get attached to their teeth, try for ages to have teeth, etc.

 

[jayem]

This is more along the lines of the question I was asking.

Since many pro-choice folks have said that they agree with abortions up to the 20 week mark since a woman has the right to change her mind up until that point and the fetus is nothing more than an appendage...if this incident happened at the 16 week mark, there's reasonable doubt about whether or not she was actually going to end up keeping it therefore should a person be punished beyond what they would be punished if they, say, knocked out a tooth?

If a state wanted to criminalize the loss of a fetus during the commission of another crime, then the charge should be feticide.

I would think the offender could still be prosecuted for feticide in your scenario, but his counsel could try to use the possibility of an elective abortion as a defense. I doubt that it would fly with a jury. The vast majority of elective abortions are done at 6-8 weeks. If the woman hadn't terminated at 16 weeks, I'd think that's evidence of her intent to keep the pregnancy. But it would be up to the jury to decide.

 

[Glas Ridire]

If shooting an individual who has broken into yuor home isn't murder, then guning down people in Times Square isn't murder!

Reducio ad absurdium.

This. The difference between murder and homicide. An affirmative defense in the case of homicide is "my ex-boyfriend kicked in the door to the motel room and stabbed my boyfriend 13 times, I grabbed (dearly departed) boyfriend's gun and shot ex-boyfriend until he stopped trying to stab me to death." Should the home-girl go down for murder? no. The law says no. It isn't murder, it is a homicide. It is only illegal if home-girl happens to be a prohibited person and could not lawfully take control of boyfriend's gun i.e. she is a felon, has been adjudicated mentally ill, is under age or some such. Homicide and murder are not the same thing, that is why we use two different sounding words.

 

[Paradoxum]

...if someone punched a pregnant woman in the stomach and caused her to have a miscarriage, should they only get the basic assault charge that one would get if she wasn't pregnant at all?

I would say no, because that person doesn't only harm the pregnant lady, but also takes the child (and the child's potential personhood) from her. I don't know if it should be considered murder, but it is probably one of the worst sorts of criminal damage. In Britain I think it is possible to get a life sentence for some types of criminal damage.

So the crime is against the woman (and perhaps the husbands) and their right to their childs life.

That's just one thought anyway.

 

[Skaloop]

...if someone punched a pregnant woman in the stomach and caused her to have a miscarriage, should they only get the basic assault charge that one would get if she wasn't pregnant at all?

Punching a pregnant woman in the stomach and causing her to miscarry is not a legal abortion, and therefore is not a legal form of homicide, and as such would be considered murder (or manslaughter or something else depending on the circumstances).

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I would say no, because that person doesn't only harm the pregnant lady, but also takes the child (and the child's potential personhood) from her. I don't know if it should be considered murder, but it is probably one of the worst sorts of criminal damage. In Britain I think it is possible to get a life sentence for some types of criminal damage.

So the crime is against the woman (and perhaps the husbands) and their right to their childs life.

That's just one thought anyway.

But it's not actually a child at that point right? So how could it be considered murder?

Can't really have it both ways on this one...it's either a human life or it's not.

Let's also remember that the husband would have zero grounds to file charges of his own since by the current standards, he has no say and no authority over the fetus prior to the actual birth.

 

[Skaloop]

But it's not actually a child at that point right? So how could it be considered murder?

Can't really have it both ways on this one...it's either a human life or it's not.

It is. And a human life can legally be ended under certain conditions. Punching a woman in the stomach causing a miscarriage is not one of those conditions, so it's murder. Abortion is one of those conditions, so it's not murder.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Punching a pregnant woman in the stomach and causing her to miscarry is not a legal abortion, and therefore is not a legal form of homicide, and as such would be considered murder (or manslaughter or something else depending on the circumstances).

By the current standards, a fetus is an appendage of the woman's body, thus the justification for legal abortion since you're not killing a human life, you're just removing an appendage.

So if we want to be consistent, I would think the assualt charge would be the same as if you cut someone's finger off. (Maybe even less since the baby is an appendage that you can grow another one of...you can't grow another finger)

 

[ThatRobGuy]

It is. And a human life can legally be ended under certain conditions. Punching a woman in the stomach causing a miscarriage is not one of those conditions, so it's murder. Abortion is one of those conditions, so it's not murder.

So you acknowledge that abortion is a legal form of killing an innocent child then?

 

[Cute Tink]

If abortion is murder, do you start a criminal investigation for every known miscarriage? Just curious what your position on that would be.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

If abortion is murder, do you start a criminal investigation for every known miscarriage? Just curious what your position on that would be.

Actually, hospitals do report to the police them if they see evidence of foul play (trauma to certain areas of the body, signs of abuse, etc...)

So if a woman has a miscarriage and there's a fist-sized bruise on her stomach, absolutely investigate that!

 

[Skaloop]

So you acknowledge that abortion is a legal form of killing an innocent child then?

No. I acknowledge that abortion is a legal form of ending a human life.

I disagree with your use of the charged terms "killing", "innocent", and "child".

 

[ThatRobGuy]

No. I acknowledge that abortion is a legal form of ending a human life.

I disagree with your use of the charged terms "killing", "innocent", and "child".

If you disagree with the terms, then you agree that the assault charges brought upon the aggressor should be no more severe than an aggressor who damages another random appendage but doesn't end the life of the mother?