Atheist or agnostic?

[hollyda]

The term "agnostic atheist" is terrible, IMO. It's confusing and weasily. I rarely, if ever, see the term "agnostic theist" used, though that should be equally applicable.

If one must account for uncertainty, then a much better term is "presumptive atheist/theist." Which means that at one's current level of knowledge and understanding, one does not, or does believe in gods.

I understand your reasoning, but if people don't know what words mean, they can look at a dictionary. One word refers to knowledge, the other to belief. It's accurate for me. Granted, I refer to myself as "an atheist." The agnostic part comes in the conversation that follows. I don't feel the need to state the full thing unless it's deemed relevant by the flow of the discussion.

 

[Eudaimonist]

The term "agnostic atheist" is terrible, IMO. It's confusing and weasily.

In what way is it weasily? The reason for the term is that it covers two separate issues -- belief and knowledge. It is less confusing than failing to make that distinction.

I rarely, if ever, see the term "agnostic theist" used, though that should be equally applicable.

I see the term used frequently, especially here at CF, but at other websites as well.

If one must account for uncertainty, then a much better term is "presumptive atheist/theist." Which means that at one's current level of knowledge and understanding, one does not, or does believe in gods.

The term agnostic atheist isn't accounting for uncertainty. It's accounting for knowledge. When I call myself an agnostic atheist, I'm not saying "I'm uncertain about my views". I'm saying that I do not claim to have knowledge that no gods exist. It's equivalent to calling myself a weak atheist.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[jayem]

The term agnostic atheist isn't accounting for uncertainty. It's accounting for knowledge. When I call myself an agnostic atheist, I'm not saying "I'm uncertain about my views". I'm saying that I do not claim to have knowledge that no gods exist.

Isn't that the same as saying that you are uncertain that no gods exist? That's what I meant by uncertainty.

I think we're basically saying the same thing in different ways. This is more about style than substance. Semantic discussions usually don't shed much light on anything, and I probably should not have broached the subject.

 

[Stoneghost]

The term "agnostic atheist" is terrible, IMO. It's confusing and weasily.

It is a valid term both in common usage and philosophical definitions where it comes from. You can be an agnostic theist, even if that term isn't used. If you think its confusing maybe the problem is the term agnostic doesn't have a clear enough meaning. When I call myself an agnostic this is in a complete sense, not with respect to my belief in god specifically. I don't think one can ever know anything absolutely due to the innate bias of human perception.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Isn't that the same as saying that you are uncertain that no gods exist?

No, not the way I see it. Certainty isn't the issue.

I think we're basically saying the same thing in different ways. This is more about style than substance. Semantic discussions usually don't shed much light on anything, and I probably should not have broached the subject.

Oh, it was worth learning a new term.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[hollyda]

Isn't that the same as saying that you are uncertain that no gods exist? That's what I meant by uncertainty.

I think we're basically saying the same thing in different ways. This is more about style than substance. Semantic discussions usually don't shed much light on anything, and I probably should not have broached the subject.

Agnostic modifies atheist. It states what sort of atheist one is. In the same way I majored in English with a specialty in creative writing. I was a "Creative Writing" English Major.

 

[Buy Bologna]

I have a question.

Are there any gnostic atheist here?

I have never really heard or talked to one.

All atheist I know are agnostic.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

This question is for atheists and agnostics.

If you are an atheist, why have you chosen the designating term "atheist" as opposed to "agnostic".

If you are agnostic, why have you chosen the word "agnostic", as opposed to atheist?

I disagree with your premise: 'atheist' isn't opposed to 'agnostic'.

I am gnostic and a weak atheist, inasmuch as I believe that the existence or non-existence of deities can be deduced ('gnosticism'*), but that no such conclusion has been reached ('weak atheism').

*'gnostic' in this sense is distinct from the historic theological and philosophical field of Gnosticism.

 

[christ disciple]

I disagree with your premise: 'atheist' isn't opposed to 'agnostic'.

I am gnostic and a weak atheist, inasmuch as I believe that the existence or non-existence of deities can be deduced ('gnosticism'*), but that no such conclusion has been reached ('weak atheism').

*'gnostic' in this sense is distinct from the historic theological and philosophical field of Gnosticism.

There is actually no destinction between an athiest and an agnostic. The term "atheist" literally means without god. "Agnostic" means w/o knowledge. An atheist believes there is no god. An agnostic is unsure or undecided. So, an atheist has decided there is no god, but an agnostic has made no decision yet no decision is a decsion. If you are not for then by default you are against and if you are for then you are a believer. There is no middle road. So, an agnosistic is synonymous to an atheist. An atheist is straight out against god and an agnostic by default.

 

[hollyda]

There is actually no destinction between an athiest and an agnostic. The term "atheist" literally means without god. "Agnostic" means w/o knowledge. An atheist believes there is no god. An agnostic is unsure or undecided. So, an atheist has decided there is no god, but an agnostic has made no decision yet no decision is a decsion. If you are not for then by default you are against and if you are for then you are a believer. There is no middle road. So, an agnosistic is synonymous to an atheist. An atheist is straight out against god and an agnostic by default.

Dictionary.Com

a·the·ist   [ey-thee-ist]
noun
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Literally, huh? Might want rethink the use of that word.

An agnostic says, "I have no knowledge whether or not god(s) exist."

An atheist says "I have no belief that god(s) exist," OR "I don't believe god(s) exist," OR "God(s) do not exist." (This last example is what we call a "strong atheist")

An agnostic theist would say something like, "I have no knowledge whether or not god(s) exist, but I believe in god(s)."

An agnostic atheist would say something like, "I have no knowledge whether or not god(s) exist, and I do not believe in god(s)."

Do you know the difference between a belief statement and a knowledge statement?

 

[quatona]

There is actually no destinction between an athiest and an agnostic. The term "atheist" literally means without god. "Agnostic" means w/o knowledge. An atheist believes there is no god. An agnostic is unsure or undecided. So, an atheist has decided there is no god, but an agnostic has made no decision yet no decision is a decsion. If you are not for then by default you are against and if you are for then you are a believer. There is no middle road. So, an agnosistic is synonymous to an atheist. An atheist is straight out against god and an agnostic by default.

I so desperately was in need of yet another poster who tells me what I think and what I am by superimposing his dogma on my statements.

I´m waiting for an atheist to step up and say that there is no difference between a theist and an agnostic because both have it wrong, one of them straight out, the other by default.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

There is actually no destinction between an athiest and an agnostic. The term "atheist" literally means without god. "Agnostic" means w/o knowledge. An atheist believes there is no god. An agnostic is unsure or undecided. So, an atheist has decided there is no god, but an agnostic has made no decision yet no decision is a decsion. If you are not for then by default you are against and if you are for then you are a believer. There is no middle road. So, an agnosistic is synonymous to an atheist. An atheist is straight out against god and an agnostic by default.

Oh for gods sake...

Are the school systems really this bad, or do people just not pay attention in school?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

There is actually no destinction between an athiest and an agnostic. The term "atheist" literally means without god. "Agnostic" means w/o knowledge. An atheist believes there is no god. An agnostic is unsure or undecided. So, an atheist has decided there is no god, but an agnostic has made no decision yet no decision is a decsion. If you are not for then by default you are against and if you are for then you are a believer. There is no middle road. So, an agnosistic is synonymous to an atheist. An atheist is straight out against god and an agnostic by default.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

I am an agnostic theist. I believe but feel there is probably not enough epistemic "sugar" for me to claim "sweet" that's all. So why believe? Maybe it's just I like the taste of theism as a lifestyle and attitude... so to speak. Even if the sweetness I have turns out to be artificial (illusory, objectively ill based), I would not be disappointed to much.

 

[SithDoughnut]

There is actually no destinction between an athiest and an agnostic. The term "atheist" literally means without god. "Agnostic" means w/o knowledge. An atheist believes there is no god. An agnostic is unsure or undecided. So, an atheist has decided there is no god, but an agnostic has made no decision yet no decision is a decsion. If you are not for then by default you are against and if you are for then you are a believer. There is no middle road. So, an agnosistic is synonymous to an atheist. An atheist is straight out against god and an agnostic by default.

You've got the right idea, but agnostic and atheist are different words with different meanings. I'm pretty sure you were going for a more practical application of these words rather than the words themselves, but I don't think the other posters here quite followed you correctly.

To translate somewhat: a "true" agnostic (i.e., someone who says "I don't know" and leaves it at that) will by definition be a weak atheist. Atheism by definition is the absence of theism, so anyone who is not a believer in God is an atheist, regardless of how they choose to phrase their reasons. Christ Disciple had the right idea but the wrong application of it.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

You've got the right idea, but agnostic and atheist are different words with different meanings. I'm pretty sure you were going for a more practical application of these words rather than the words themselves, but I don't think the other posters here quite followed you correctly.

To translate somewhat: a "true" agnostic (i.e., someone who says "I don't know" and leaves it at that) will by definition be a weak atheist. Atheism by definition is the absence of theism, so anyone who is not a believer in God is an atheist, regardless of how they choose to phrase their reasons. Christ Disciple had the right idea but the wrong application of it.

I disagree. When he says things like, "An atheist believes there is no god", and "If you are not for then by default you are against and if you are for then you are a believer. There is no middle road". That's completely and utterly wrong.

 

[SithDoughnut]

I disagree. When he says things like, "An atheist believes there is no god", and "If you are not for then by default you are against and if you are for then you are a believer. There is no middle road". That's completely and utterly wrong.

Well, technically there isn't. The definition of atheism encompasses everything that isn't theism. Gnostic and agnostic, being entirely separate terms, do not sit in between atheism and theism. The moment you are not a theist you are an atheist - obviously he has the wrong idea of what atheism encompasses, but the idea that there is nothing between atheism and theism is correct.

The main point is right, the exact terminology used isn't.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Well, technically there isn't. The definition of atheism encompasses everything that isn't theism. Gnostic and agnostic, being entirely separate terms, do not sit in between atheism and theism. The moment you are not a theist you are an atheist - obviously he has the wrong idea of what atheism encompasses, but the idea that there is nothing between atheism and theism is correct.

The main point is right, the exact terminology used isn't.

Ah, I see, but he's not saying that exactly - he's saying you either affirm God exists or you affirm God does not exist, and that there's no middle path. In effect, 'weak atheism' isn't real. Though I may have misunderstood him.

 

[christ disciple]

Literally, huh? Might want rethink the use of that word.

An agnostic says, "I have no knowledge whether or not god(s) exist."

An atheist says "I have no belief that god(s) exist," OR "I don't believe god(s) exist," OR "God(s) do not exist." (This last example is what we call a "strong atheist")

An agnostic theist would say something like, "I have no knowledge whether or not god(s) exist, but I believe in god(s)."

An agnostic atheist would say something like, "I have no knowledge whether or not god(s) exist, and I do not believe in god(s)."

Do you know the difference between a belief statement and a knowledge statement?

General Roots and Prefixes
Prefix meaning Examples
(a, an) not, without atheist, anarchy, anonymous apathy, aphasia, anemia, atypical, anesthesia
Definition of THEISM
: belief in the existence of a god or gods; specifically : belief in the existence of one God viewed as the creative source of the human race and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world
Definition of ATHEIST
: one who believes that there is no deity
{a·the·ist   [ey-thee-ist] noun
a person who denies *_or disbelieves_* the existence of a supreme being or beings.
Try again. }
Prefix Meaning Examples
(dis- also di- negation, removal, expulsion disadvantage, dismount, disbud, disbar)
Definition of BELIEVE
: to accept the word or evidence of
Definition of TRUST
1a : assured reliance on the character, ability, strength, or truth of someone or something
b : one in which confidence is placed
2a : dependence on something future or contingent : hope
Definition of FAITH
: belief and trust in and loyalty to God
Definition of DENY
1: to declare untrue
2: to refuse to admit or acknowledge : disavow <deny responsibility>
One must first have knowledge of something in order to deny it. You cannot deny something that does not exist. Therefore you must first acknowledge its existence in order to deny it or else why even have a discussion about that which does not exist. If an atheist does not believe in the existence of God then there is no reason to discuss that which does not exist. Is there? (Psalm 53:1 “The fool has said in his heart there is no God”) When properly translated actually says “The fool in his heart has said “no” to God”.
As a believer I can make a defense for that which I believe in, but why would an atheist make a defense to oppose that which he does not believe in. What is the point? Is there need to defend or fear that which does not exist.
{An atheist says "I have no belief that god(s) exist," OR "I don't believe god(s) exist," OR "God(s) do not exist." (This last example is what we call a "strong atheist")}
Is not the word “deny” synonymous with “don’t”?
{An agnostic says, "I have no knowledge whether or not god(s) exist."}
I would like to restate that, “To not commit to one thing, idea, concept, etc. is to commit to the other by default”. A person is either for or against. No middle line. Indecision is a decision. To not commit is to deny. The only difference between an atheist and an agnostic is that an agnostic is a coward and will not stand up for what he believes.
Definition of AGNOSTIC
1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
2: a person who is unwilling to commit to an opinion about something
Sounds like denial to me.
{An agnostic theist would say something like, "I have no *knowledge * whether or not god(s) exist, but I believe in god(s)."}
Cannot believe in what you do not know.
Definition of OXYMORON
: a combination of contradictory or incongruous words (as cruel kindness); broadly : something (as a concept) that is made up of contradictory or incongruous elements
Examples of OXYMORON
The phrase “cruel kindness” is an oxymoron.
{An agnostic atheist would say something like, "I have no *knowledge * whether or not god(s) exist, and I do not believe in god(s)."}
According to this definition here this would be an oxymoron. How can you deny that which you do not know? How can I believe in that which I cannot know or have no knowledge of?
{Do you know the difference between a belief statement and a knowledge statement?}
How can you Know what you Believe? I can only believe in what I know and I know whom I believe in.
Do you know the difference between “knowing about “and “knowing”?

 

[Gadarene]

One must first have knowledge of something in order to deny it. You cannot deny something that does not exist. Therefore you must first acknowledge its existence in order to deny it or else why even have a discussion about that which does not exist. If an atheist does not believe in the existence of God then there is no reason to discuss that which does not exist. Is there? (Psalm 53:1 “The fool has said in his heart there is no God”) When properly translated actually says “The fool in his heart has said “no” to God”.

This is utter nonsense. Of course one can deny that something exists without knowing it exists. One does it all the time. One does not need to know that there isn't a unicorn in your garage in order to claim that there is no unicorn in your garage.

Of course, most atheists do not explicitly deny that God does exist, they simply think there is no good reason to affirm that he does exist, which is consistent without how everyone treats non-posited entities (other than the religious and their deities, of course).

And the problem here is not whether or not God exists and discussing that, the problem is God's fanclub, who regularly try and muck around with society and not for the better. If people are going to try and do that, then their entire rationale for doing so will come under scrutiny, which includes their claims about the existence of a god. If they don't like that, they can simply refrain from expecting society to be beholden to their unsupportable religious claims.

As a believer I can make a defense for that which I believe in, but why would an atheist make a defense to oppose that which he does not believe in. What is the point? Is there need to defend or fear that which does not exist.

Who says we defend or fear him? No atheist here has claimed that.

{An atheist says "I have no belief that god(s) exist," OR "I don't believe god(s) exist," OR "God(s) do not exist." (This last example is what we call a "strong atheist")}

Is not the word “deny” synonymous with “don’t”?

No.

{An agnostic says, "I have no knowledge whether or not god(s) exist."}

I would like to restate that, “To not commit to one thing, idea, concept, etc. is to commit to the other by default”. A person is either for or against. No middle line. Indecision is a decision. To not commit is to deny. The only difference between an atheist and an agnostic is that an agnostic is a coward and will not stand up for what he believes.

To the dictatorial standards of Christians, perhaps.

{An agnostic atheist would say something like, "I have no *knowledge * whether or not god(s) exist, and I do not believe in god(s)."}

According to this definition here this would be an oxymoron. How can you deny that which you do not know? How can I believe in that which I cannot know or have no knowledge of?

It makes perfect sense, as long as you don't mangle the definition of "don't" beyond that of its typical expected usage.