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The apologia of the cosmos. Evidence of God

Davian

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That is fine. Since you did not accept my invitation to formal debate, I am free with regards to any demands you may make. I offered, you declined.
So why was my theological position not an issue at the point where you made the offer?
And as I stated before, talking about God is not possible from where you stand.
No, that is not correct. It is possible, from my perspective. What is needed is for you to provide a coherent definition for this "God" that you would like to discuss.

Do you mean that it is not possible for you to provide a coherent definition for "God"? That would be your problem, not mine.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Sorry - maybe I got too simplified :)

Eli was defining 'truth' using 7 characteristics of what 'truth' is. The definition of truth isn't up for debate. It defies logic to claim that any one of those characteristics is false, much less 5 out of 7.
I disagree :)

When you provided an example to falsify a characterisitc of 'truth', that example implied that you think that characteristic was false. So, I simplified for brevity and clarity. Your examples were actually examples of what truth is not and Eli's post isn't concerned with what is not truth.

For example: "Belief cannot change a fact" and you said yes it can. Your example was "I believe in evolution". The point is "I believe in evolution" is a belief that can be changed, ergo it doen't fall under the definition of truth.

"Truth is transcultural" and you say no it's not. Your gave an example of a non-transcultural statement, ergo it doesn't fall under the definition of truth.
My examples are things that are true which don't have those characteristics. Thus, to say that truth must have those characteristics is wrong: there are instances where it doesn't.

The point is, if one is making a statement of 'truth' it have to have all those characteristics to meet the definition of 'truth'. Your examples were not examples of truth because they didn't adhere to the definition. So, to say any one of the characteristics of what defines 'truth' is false doesn't make any sense.
Your argument seems to be a semantic one.

You define 'truth' to have those seven characteristics, and so any example I give that doesn't have those characteristics must, by definition, not be 'truth'.

However, I'm working from the notion that certain claims are true. If a claim is true, then any universal characteristic of truth has to apply. So, if one of the seven characteristics don't apply, then so much for that criterion.
 
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rush1169

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Quite obviously it is since that is what was being debated.
Debating the characteristics of 'truth' is silly. Might as well debate the charactertics of a circle while at it.

"Belief cannot change a fact"

OK - debate it, I guess. Seems self-evident to me.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Until you renounce your theological noncognitivist self-defeating view, I see no reason to facilitate in your discussing something that is meaningless and non-sensical to you. This means any discussion related to God cannot be undertaken by you and I because the word God has no meaning to you.

Thank you.

This is an obvious evasion on your part. You often point out to others that this is a Philosophy board, and with that come certain expectations regarding how the dialogue is supposed to work. A philosopher can adopt any view he wishes at any given moment and argue for it, even if he does not in the end accept that view as his own. You are evading.
 
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Belk

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Debating the characteristics of 'truth' is silly. Might as well debate the charactertics of a circle while at it.

"Belief cannot change a fact"

OK - debate it, I guess. Seems self-evident to me.


And if someone claims circles contain right right angles it would be necessary to point out to them the problems with their claims, yes?
 
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rush1169

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And if someone claims circles contain right right angles it would be necessary to point out to them the problems with their claims, yes?
Maybe for some personality types, but not mine. If someone claims a circle contains right angles, I simply highly discount any other claims they make. But finding it necessary to point out the problems with claiming a circle has right angles is as productive as trying to teach a fish how to talk.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Maybe for some personality types, but not mine. If someone claims a circle contains right angles, I simply highly discount any other claims they make.
Argumenta ad hominem are fallacious.

But finding it necessary to point out the problems with claiming a circle has right angles is as productive as trying to teach a fish how to talk.
Qv.
 
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Belk

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Maybe for some personality types, but not mine. If someone claims a circle contains right angles, I simply highly discount any other claims they make. But finding it necessary to point out the problems with claiming a circle has right angles is as productive as trying to teach a fish how to talk.

Then perhaps you should leave the discussion section to those of us who actually wish to discuss things and are willing to interact with people over new ideas. :wave:
 
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Elioenai26

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You have argued that, in addition the the universe having a cause, that the cause possesses certain unique properties
Archaeopteryx, you are one of the few people here who actually seem to be interested and sincere in your questions, and all of them are worthy of all the attention and time I can put into them. Forgive me for delaying in responding to you, I have been quite busy here on my end.


Several things of note regarding your statement above:


1. We utilize what is known in philosophy as an inference to the best explanation to develop an understanding of what some of the properties of the Cause of the universe must be. The cause can be no less than these:


i. Immaterial, timeless, and spaceless


Note that we can gather from understanding what we mean when we speak of "universe" which is all material reality including space and time, that the cause of said universe must possess at least the above attributes. This cause cannot be material, for all matter came into existence at the Big Bang. If the cause was material, it would have had to exist before matter was created, but this is of course absurd. Matter could not have existed before matter came into existence. This cause also could not have been in time or temporal because there would have had to have been a time before time came into existence. For the above reasons, this too is metaphysically absurd. There was no space time material before space time. This cause must also be spaceless, or non-spatial, for all space came into being at the Big Bang along with time and matter. There could not have been a "space" which existed co-dependently with time and matter as the GTR concludes, before space which exists co-dependently with time and matter came into existence. To maintain that the cause of the universe could have been material, spatial, or temporal, is to maintain that it was not a cause of the universe at all! For it has properties correspondant to the universe. The Standard Model makes this simply impossible, for it demonstrates that all space-time, all matter, and all energy came into existence at some point in the finite past in an explosion of light and energy from an initial singularity.

possess certain unique properties that are not shared with any other known use of the word "cause".

It seems to me that you are implying that the cause of the universe must necessarily possesses certain properties that are shared by other causes that we know of for the explanation to be logically coherent.

Several things can be said here:

1. The KCA points to an efficient cause which possesses causal powers and that stands in causal relations to entities outside of itself. It points to a cause that possesses a volitional capacity, and it points to a cause that is an intelligent mind (I will be elaborating on this below). All of the above are attributes which every human including you and I possess! So the cause in this way, is exactly like every other efficient cause that we know of! So in this manner the cause is not dissimilar to human beings which we observe every day to be efficient causes.

2. In the absence of some epistemic warrant defeater for the three main attributes inferred, we must logically conclude that the best explanation for the cause of the universe be one that is immaterial, spaceless, and timeless. This is in no way logically incoherent but coherent. For we understand that the cause of the universe must in at least three ways be wholly unlike the universe itself, for if it were not, it would just be a part of the universe. This discussion can be therefore, tackled from the angle of what exists necessarily and what exists contingently. The cause of the universe must exist necessarily and not contingently. From the argument, we see that the universe must exist contingently and therefore, owes it's existence to an entity that exists necessarily.

And yet those are exactly the properties that you ascribe to your "cause" - the properties that would define it as no-thing. Which leaves you in the bizarre position of arguing that no-thing is really something and that no-thing really is the cause of everything.

It seems to me that you are suggesting that the use of negative preidcates necessarily equates with unintelligibility and or nothingness.

Several things can be noted here:

1. If I were to tell you that I was penniless, that statement is clearly intelligible and in no way bizarre. It simply means that I have no pennies or in common idiomatic usage, "broke".

2. If I were to tell you that I was impatient, that statement is clearly intelligible and in no way bizarre. It simply means that I have no patience or am not very patient.

You see that in our usage of language, we oftentimes use negative predicates to make positive statements of fact. They are in no way unintelligible and actually very informative.

To elaborate:

1. Nothing is nothing, and therefore possess no properties for it is literally no-thing. To say that the universe was caused by nothing is to say that the universe was uncaused, which is the exact opposite of the arguments conclsion. The argument argues that the cause be no-thing material, not nothing. In other words, the argument calls for an immaterial entity which possess causal powers.

2. The KCA argues for a cause of the universe. This conclusion is a positive existential affirmation. The cause must possess incredible causal power for it brought the universe into being without any material cause. The attribution of negative predicates is enormously informative and metaphyscially significant. From it's timelessness and immateriality, we can induce from these, it's personhood.

In the below video, Dr. Craig speaks on this exact question.

9. Worst Objection to Kalam Cosmological Argument: Negative Attribues of God is Nothing - YouTube



I repeat what I said earlier: You are leveraging the meaning of the word "cause", but ignoring the context in which it finds meaning.

Aristotle in his works, distinguished between two main types of causes:


1. Efficient Causes - What brings an effect into being, i.e what produces an effect. In philosophy this is specifically referred to as "agent causation".


2. Material Causes - the stuff out of which an effect is brought into being.


For example:


The statue of David had as it's efficient cause, the artist and sculptor Michaelangelo. It's material cause was the block of marble from which he carved it.

How do you deduce personhood from timelessness and immateriality?

Excellent question Archaeopteryx! Let me see if I can unpack this neatly for you. I shall do so in three different arguments.


1. Al Ghazali, the Muslim Philosopher who in the Middle Ages propounded the Kalam Cosmological Argument, argues that the cause must be personal because if it is anything else, it is impossible to explain how you can get a temporal effect with a beginning (the universe) from a changeless eternal cause. If a cause is sufficient to produce it's effect then if the cause is there, then the effect (the universe) should be there, otherwise the cause is not really sufficient.

If the necessary and sufficient conditions (the cause) for the production of the effect are eternal, then why isn't the effect eternal? How can all the causal conditions sufficient for the production of the effect be changelessly existent and yet the effect (the universe) not also be existent along with the cause? How can the cause exist without the effect?

For example, suppose that the cause of water's freezing is that the temperature be below 0 degrees centigrade. Now if the temperature were below 0 degrees centigrade from eternity past, then any water that was around would be frozen from eternity. It would be impossible for it to begin to freeze only a finite time ago because once the sufficient conditions for the effect are given, then the effect must be there as well, otheriwise the conditions are not sufficient but must be caused by that which is sufficient to bring the conditions about. But we see that the effect (the universe) came into existence a finite time ago by a cause that is timelessly eternal. How can this be reconciled?

Al Ghazali reasoned that the only way out of this dilemma, is to say that the cause of the universe's beginning is a personal agent who freely chooses to create a universe in time. Philosophers call this type of causation "agent causation," and because the agent is free, he can initiate new effects by freely bringing about conditions which were not previously present.

For example:

A man sitting changelessly from eternity could freely will to stand up; thus, a temporal effect arises from an eternally existing agent. Similarly, a finite time ago a Creator endowed with free will could have freely brought the world into being at that moment. In this way, the Creator could exist changelessly and eternally but choose to create the world in time. By "choose" one need not mean that the Creator changes his mind about the decision to create, but that he freely and eternally intends to create a world with a beginning. By exercising his causal power, he therefore brings it about that a world with a beginning comes to exist. So the cause is eternal, but the effect is not. In this way, then, it is possible for the temporal universe to have come to exist from an eternal cause: through the free will of a personal Creator.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

The second argument is as follows:

1. The only things that are timeless and immaterial are either minds or abstract objects. Examples for the latter are mathematical entities like sets or numbers.

2. Numbers however are causally impotent. They do not have the property of causation. The number "7" has no potentiality for bringing or choosing to create anything or willing any action.

3. Therefore an immaterial or unembodied mind must have been the cause of the universe. More on what "mind" is below.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

The third argument is as follows:

Oxford professor and philosopher Richard Swinburne demonstrates that there are two broad types of explanations in philosophy:

1. Scientific - given in terms of laws of nature and initial conditions.

2. Personal - given in terms of an agent and his or her volition.

The first state of the existence of the universe cannot have a scientific explanation because there are no laws of nature or initial conditions from which that first state could be explained from or appealed to because it is the first state, there are no antecedent conditions from which one could derive a scientific explanation!

Therefore, the explanation must be personal.
 
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Elioenai26

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Of course the argument never argues that the supernatural cause has gotten inside of the natural universe. The theist must never concede that point or else his thesis becomes a testable hypothesis. The theist must not allow this to happen; he must keep his deity "outside" the universe so that his deity remains unfalsifiable.

This is irrelevant to the KCA. But I will say that the greatest evidence that God has acted within the universe and is acting even now, is that He sent His only Son to live among men, to die vicariously for their sins, to be buried, and then on the third day rise as a testament to His divine power and authority.

Minds are not immaterial.
No evidence that an "unembodied mind" is even possible.


There are several good arguments as to why this position simply is not tenable:

1. A conciousness or a mind cannot be necessarily equated only with a physcial organ of the body. The organ composed of grey matter in our cranium is not joyful or happy, or cheerful. These are mental states and cannot characeterize an organ of the body.

2. The phenomenon of intentionality. For example: to say that you think about lunch, or you think about these posts, or you think about eating. Physcial objects do not have intentionality or "aboutness". These are properties of mental states

4. Existence of what is termed as free will. To have freedom of will you must have an immaterial self that has the potential to influence brain states. If all interaction in our bodies is brain to mind or physical to mental, then all of our acts are determined. But if you think you can will or cause things to happen in your body i.e the ability to will to open your eyes, or the ability to will to lift your leg and take a step forward, or the choice to move your fingers across the keys of a keyboard, you have mental to physical causation or mind to brain dictation, and that implies a nonreductive view of ourselves which implies the existence of an immaterial entity or "self" conjoined or correlated to the body but not reducible to it. This dualistic view has been the standard, most universally attested to view of the essential nature of humans for thousands of years.

4. Saying that the mind is nothing more than matter is simply begging the question for materialism/naturalism. If one maintains this as an objection to the logical inference to the best explanation of said cause, specifically the aspect of it's personhood, they must give some kind of argument as to why the mind is only a property of matter and nothing more, and that it is not a distinct immaterial entity.

5. In our deepest most introspective experience and knowledge of ourselves, we have an acquaintance of this immaterial self. In fact it is so intuitive that it is all but taken for granted!

6. Dr. Goetz, who is Professor of Philosophy at Ursinus College and a specialist in philosophy of mind has this to say:

"I am not convinced that evidence from neuroscience supports the view that our minds are identical with our brains. The reasons for my not being convinced are several.

First, neuroscience contributes nothing substantively new to our understanding of ourselves and our relationship to our bodies. We have known all along that our mental lives could be and are causally related to what happens to our bodies. After all, we did not need neuroscience to know that a good knock on the head could produce a change in our psychological lives. Who could fail to be aware that dropping a brick on one’s foot would produce pain? What neuroscience has done is provide us with a more detailed picture of how the human mind is influenced by certain events in the brain. It has not changed the general nature of that picture. The fact that much of what happens in our minds is influenced by what happens in our bodies was something known by the first self-conscious human beings.

Second, ..... not everything that goes on in our minds is causally determined by what goes on in our bodies. Sometimes what goes on in our bodies is a result of what goes on in our minds. For example, the movements of my fingers as I type this response to your question are ultimately produced my mental events... Here we have mental-to-physical causation. What explains both this choice of mine and the physical events in my body that are ultimately produced by this choice? The explanation is the purpose that I provide an answer to your question. A purposeful explanation is a teleological explanation. It is well known that those who identify the mind with the brain typically deny that any of us freely (indeterministically) make choices for purposes. Materialists are typically determinists who insist that the only legitimate kind of explanation is a non-teleological explanation. Causal explanations are the most well-known and frequently used kind of non-teleological explanations. Those who exclude the possibility of teleological explanations are often called ‘naturalists.’ My colleague, Charles Taliaferro, and I have written a book entitled Naturalism (Grand Rapids, Mich: Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2008) in which we explain what naturalism is and offer a critique of it.

Third, I believe it is important to note that some of the world’s foremost neuroscientists have believed that the mind is immaterial. These neuroscientists have been well aware that stimulating the brain can produce some intriguing psychological results. One of the pioneers in the field of neuroscience was Wilder Penfield. In his fascinating book The Mystery of the Mind, he writes the following:

When I have caused a conscious patient to move his hand by applying an electrode to the motor cortex of one hemisphere, I have often asked him about it. Invariably his response was: ‘I didn’t do that. You did.’ When I caused him to vocalize, he said: ‘I didn’t make that sound. You pulled it out of me.’ When I caused the record of the stream of consciousness to run again and so presented to him the record of his past experience, he marveled that he should be conscious of the past as well as of the present. He was astonished that it should come back to him so completely, with more detail than he could possibly recall voluntarily. He assumed at once that, somehow, the surgeon was responsible for the phenomenon, but he recognized the details as those of his own past experience. (76)

Penfield goes on to note that “There is no place in the cerebral cortex where electrical stimulation will cause a patient . . . to decide” (77). This is consistent with my point that choices are undetermined events with a teleological explanation. In light of his work as a neuroscientist, Penfield concludes the following: “For my own part, after years of striving to explain the mind on the basis of brain-action alone, I have come to the conclusion that it is simpler (and far easier and logical) if one adopts the hypothesis that our being does consist of two fundamental elements” (80).

Another famous neuroscientist who believed that the mind is immaterial was Sir John C. Eccles. He and the widely respected philosopher of science Sir Karl Popper wrote a book entitled The Self and Its Brain in which they argued that the human mind is best understood along interactionist dualist lines (the mind and brain are separate entities that causally interact). After reading The Mystery of the Mind and The Self and Its Brain and many similar books and puzzling over questions about the mind-brain relationship, I have come to the conclusion that neuroscience provides no evidence whatsoever that the mind is identical with its brain. I am convinced that those who believe that it does provide such evidence bring their naturalist convictions to the evidence. In other words, they are already naturalists (materialists) before they do their neuroscience.

Fourth, we might ask why neuroscientists like Penfield and Eccles believed in the immateriality of the mind, even though they were well aware of the causal dependency of many psychological events on brain events. I believe that part of the answer is that they did not confuse the concept of the correlation of two events with the concept of the identity of two events. It simply does not follow from the fact that two events are correlated that they are identical. For example, when one learns that a high score on the Scholastic Aptitude Test (SAT) is correlated with entrance to a good college one does not identify scoring well on the exam with entrance to college. Similarly, when one discovers that eating a certain food is correlated with an upset stomach one does not identify eating that food with having an upset stomach. Then there is the fact that movements of bodily limbs like arms and legs are correlated with events in the motor cortex of the brain. No one believes, however, that movements of arms and legs are identical with their causal antecedents in the brain. Upon reflection, it is just as obvious that there is no good reason to believe that psychological events are identical with brain events simply because the two are correlated.

Finally, ..... some religious people cite out-of-the-body or near-death experiences as evidence for the immateriality of the mind and the possibility of its surviving disembodied. With all due respect, I seriously doubt that this is what really convinces people that the mind is immaterial. Most people start out believing that the mind is immaterial and in light of this initial conviction find nothing conceptually problematic with near-death and out-of-the-body experiences. They do not come to believe that the mind is immaterial on the basis of having or hearing about such experiences. Moreover, I believe that most people are religious because they believe that the mind is immaterial. They do not come to believe that the mind is immaterial because they are religious.
With all good wishes,"

Stewart Goetz, Ph.D.
Professor of Philosophy
Ursinus College
Collegeville, PA 19426


This is an obvious evasion on your part. You often point out to others that this is a Philosophy board, and with that come certain expectations regarding how the dialogue is supposed to work. A philosopher can adopt any view he wishes at any given moment and argue for it, even if he does not in the end accept that view as his own. You are evading.

I choose to spend time on certain posts questions, and replies according to the time I have available (very limited), and several other factors such as level of pertinence to the subject, etc.

I simply do not have time Archaeopteryx, to engage in discussion with people who, for various reasons, I cannot determine are sincerely interested in fruitful discussion. I very well could be wrong about Davian's intentions, I know I could be. But I wholeheartedly do not believe that I am. Davian does not even believe that the word "God" has any meaning Archaeopteryx. Why would I spend my time answering his rephrased, reworded already asked questions, when I could be spending my time answering your questions?

I have to make choices here on how to spend my time. I have already spent upwards of three hours on these responses to you. I simply do not have the time to answer everyone here and thus must prioritize these replies to the KCA.

I have the right to simply refuse to respond to irrelevant, pointless posts. Now if Davian desires to discard the self-defeating view of positivism, then we can have an honest open discussion. If not then that is his choice.
 
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Davian

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I have the right to simply refuse to respond to irrelevant, pointless posts. Now if Davian desires to discard the self-defeating view of positivism, then we can have an honest open discussion. If not then that is his choice.

How can there be "open, honest" discussion where one of the participants asserts that he cannot be wrong?
 
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Davian

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I never said I could not be wrong,

Then perhaps you should have be more explicit in your response, here.

So I ask: Do you think you could be wrong about "God", and that it may not actually exist, beyond a character in a book? Is there a possibility that you may not have the "truth"?
... in fact I have been wrong several times in things I have typed here in these forums.

That fact that is not in dispute. Out of curiosity, I would ask where, when this occurred, did you acknowledge that you were wrong?
 
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Elioenai26

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Then perhaps you should have be more explicit in your response, here.

So I ask: Do you think you could be wrong about "God", and that it may not actually exist, beyond a character in a book? Is there a possibility that you may not have the "truth"?


That fact that is not in dispute. Out of curiosity, I would ask where, when this occurred, did you acknowledge that you were wrong?

Two things here very quickly :

1. I do enjoy discoursing with you, you seem to be a lot more mature than some here who just post random nonsensical irrelevant posts. Im just not going to be discussing anything related to God unless you admit that the word is intelligible.

2. These questions you are asking me now have absolutely no bearing on the KCA.
 
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Danyc

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Two things here very quickly :

1. I do enjoy discoursing with you, you seem to be a lot more mature than some here who just post random nonsensical irrelevant posts. Im just not going to be discussing anything related to God unless you admit that the word is intelligible.

2. These questions you are asking me now have absolutely no bearing on the KCA.

Are you a politician or something? Why can't you answer a simple question, directly, and honestly? Why can't you admit wrong when you're called on it like a decent person? Like a decent Christian?
 
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Wiccan_Child

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A gentle reminder to anyone desiring to interact in this thread:

1. Informal fallacies will not be considered arguments worthy of a response.
Is that why you didn't respond to my post? :confused:
 
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The Engineer

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A gentle reminder to anyone desiring to interact in this thread:

1. Informal fallacies will not be considered arguments worthy of a response.

Please let us stay on topic. The thread is for discussion regarding the KCA.

Thanks.
What does this have to do with this

Are you a politician or something? Why can't you answer a simple question, directly, and honestly? Why can't you admit wrong when you're called on it like a decent person? Like a decent Christian?

The thing is, nobody's interested in an honest debate with you because you've shown yourself to be dishonest on several occasions.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Archaeopteryx, you are one of the few people here who actually seem to be interested and sincere in your questions, and all of them are worthy of all the attention and time I can put into them. Forgive me for delaying in responding to you, I have been quite busy here on my end.


Several things of note regarding your statement above:


1. We utilize what is known in philosophy as an inference to the best explanation to develop an understanding of what some of the properties of the Cause of the universe must be. The cause can be no less than these:


i. Immaterial, timeless, and spaceless

Why must it be any of these things? How can we even attach the word "cause" to it if it possesses none of the properties of things that we ordinarily attach the word "cause" to? If we utilize what is known as an inference to the best explanation, then we never reach the conclusion you want us to reach.

Note that we can gather from understanding what we mean when we speak of "universe" which is all material reality including space and time, that the cause of said universe must possess at least the above attributes. This cause cannot be material, for all matter came into existence at the Big Bang. If the cause was material, it would have had to exist before matter was created, but this is of course absurd. Matter could not have existed before matter came into existence. This cause also could not have been in time or temporal because there would have had to have been a time before time came into existence. For the above reasons, this too is metaphysically absurd. There was no space time material before space time. This cause must also be spaceless, or non-spatial, for all space came into being at the Big Bang along with time and matter. There could not have been a "space" which existed co-dependently with time and matter as the GTR concludes, before space which exists co-dependently with time and matter came into existence. To maintain that the cause of the universe could have been material, spatial, or temporal, is to maintain that it was not a cause of the universe at all! For it has properties correspondant to the universe. The Standard Model makes this simply impossible, for it demonstrates that all space-time, all matter, and all energy came into existence at some point in the finite past in an explosion of light and energy from an initial singularity.

So it comes back to the cause of everything being nothing, no where and no when.

Recall earlier, in your conversation with someone else, how you used the word "immaterial" to describe their counterpoint? Juxtapose that with how you are using the word "immaterial" right now and you will notice quite a difference.

It seems to me that you are implying that the cause of the universe must necessarily possesses certain properties that are shared by other causes that we know of for the explanation to be logically coherent.

If it is, as you claim it is, an explanation from what is already known about causes, then yes, it must adhere to the properties of known causes for the explanation to have some force. Otherwise it simply leverages the meaning of the word.

Several things can be said here:

1. The KCA points to an efficient cause which possesses causal powers and that stands in causal relations to entities outside of itself. It points to a cause that possesses a volitional capacity, and it points to a cause that is an intelligent mind (I will be elaborating on this below). All of the above are attributes which every human including you and I possess! So the cause in this way, is exactly like every other efficient cause that we know of! So in this manner the cause is not dissimilar to human beings which we observe every day to be efficient causes.

That's pretty much the only property your so-called cause possesses - the property of being causally efficacious. However, that would make it somewhat circular. Causes in the real world cause their effects because they act upon them (matter on matter) in a certain way, in space, and across time. Given that your cause apparently exists in a timeless, spaceless and matter-less vacuum, there is nothing about it that would identify it as a cause. And yet you assert that it is still a cause.

2. In the absence of some epistemic warrant defeater for the three main attributes inferred, we must logically conclude that the best explanation for the cause of the universe be one that is immaterial, spaceless, and timeless. This is in no way logically incoherent but coherent. For we understand that the cause of the universe must in at least three ways be wholly unlike the universe itself, for if it were not, it would just be a part of the universe. This discussion can be therefore, tackled from the angle of what exists necessarily and what exists contingently. The cause of the universe must exist necessarily and not contingently. From the argument, we see that the universe must exist contingently and therefore, owes it's existence to an entity that exists necessarily.

Why not cut the argument short and conclude that the universe must exist necessarily (in some form or another), and not contingently? That is certainly a much more parsimonious conclusion that going the extra step by postulating alien causes. But supposing that we accept the notion of some supernatural cause. Why should we conclude that that cause must exist necessarily? Perhaps it too is contingent on some other, as yet unidentified, cause (a super-supernatural cause)? Your argument doesn't tell us why nature must be contingent, nor why the supernatural cause must be necessary. It is a word-play.

It seems to me that you are suggesting that the use of negative preidcates necessarily equates with unintelligibility and or nothingness.

Several things can be noted here:

1. If I were to tell you that I was penniless, that statement is clearly intelligible and in no way bizarre. It simply means that I have no pennies or in common idiomatic usage, "broke".

2. If I were to tell you that I was impatient, that statement is clearly intelligible and in no way bizarre. It simply means that I have no patience or am not very patient.

You see that in our usage of language, we oftentimes use negative predicates to make positive statements of fact. They are in no way unintelligible and actually very informative.

And if you were to tell me that you have taken my favourite pen and hidden it in no place, at no time, in some immaterial world (if we can even call such emptiness a "world"), that statement would indeed be unintelligible because you would be in the odd position of saying that something is nothing and nothing is something.

To elaborate:

1. Nothing is nothing, and therefore possess no properties for it is literally no-thing. To say that the universe was caused by nothing is to say that the universe was uncaused, which is the exact opposite of the arguments conclsion.

Exactly. Which is why the argument is unintelligible nonsense. It pretends that nothing is really something.

The argument argues that the cause be no-thing material, not nothing. In other words, the argument calls for an immaterial entity which possess causal powers.

To be an entity possessing causal powers is to be material. To be "immaterial" in relation to anything is to stand in no relation to it whatsoever.

2. The KCA argues for a cause of the universe. This conclusion is a positive existential affirmation. The cause must possess incredible causal power for it brought the universe into being without any material cause. The attribution of negative predicates is enormously informative and metaphyscially significant. From it's timelessness and immateriality, we can induce from these, it's personhood.

Excellent question Archaeopteryx! Let me see if I can unpack this neatly for you. I shall do so in three different arguments.


1. Al Ghazali, the Muslim Philosopher who in the Middle Ages propounded the Kalam Cosmological Argument, argues that the cause must be personal because if it is anything else, it is impossible to explain how you can get a temporal effect with a beginning (the universe) from a changeless eternal cause. If a cause is sufficient to produce it's effect then if the cause is there, then the effect (the universe) should be there, otherwise the cause is not really sufficient.

That doesn't point to the necessity of an agency. It points to the necessity of change.


The second argument is as follows:

1. The only things that are timeless and immaterial are either minds or abstract objects. Examples for the latter are mathematical entities like sets or numbers.

2. Numbers however are causally impotent. They do not have the property of causation. The number "7" has no potentiality for bringing or choosing to create anything or willing any action.

3. Therefore an immaterial or unembodied mind must have been the cause of the universe. More on what "mind" is below.

The mind is not immaterial nor is it unembodied. The very notion of an unembodied mind makes no sense except under dualist assumptions.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

The third argument is as follows:

Oxford professor and philosopher Richard Swinburne demonstrates that there are two broad types of explanations in philosophy:

1. Scientific - given in terms of laws of nature and initial conditions.

2. Personal - given in terms of an agent and his or her volition.

The first state of the existence of the universe cannot have a scientific explanation because there are no laws of nature or initial conditions from which that first state could be explained from or appealed to because it is the first state, there are no antecedent conditions from which one could derive a scientific explanation!

Therefore, the explanation must be personal.
[/QUOTE]

False dichotomy. Personal agents are part of nature.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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There are several good arguments as to why this position simply is not tenable:

1. A conciousness or a mind cannot be necessarily equated only with a physcial organ of the body. The organ composed of grey matter in our cranium is not joyful or happy, or cheerful. These are mental states and cannot characeterize an organ of the body.

2. The phenomenon of intentionality. For example: to say that you think about lunch, or you think about these posts, or you think about eating. Physcial objects do not have intentionality or "aboutness". These are properties of mental states

4. Existence of what is termed as free will. To have freedom of will you must have an immaterial self that has the potential to influence brain states. If all interaction in our bodies is brain to mind or physical to mental, then all of our acts are determined. But if you think you can will or cause things to happen in your body i.e the ability to will to open your eyes, or the ability to will to lift your leg and take a step forward, or the choice to move your fingers across the keys of a keyboard, you have mental to physical causation or mind to brain dictation, and that implies a nonreductive view of ourselves which implies the existence of an immaterial entity or "self" conjoined or correlated to the body but not reducible to it. This dualistic view has been the standard, most universally attested to view of the essential nature of humans for thousands of years.

4. Saying that the mind is nothing more than matter is simply begging the question for materialism/naturalism. If one maintains this as an objection to the logical inference to the best explanation of said cause, specifically the aspect of it's personhood, they must give some kind of argument as to why the mind is only a property of matter and nothing more, and that it is not a distinct immaterial entity.

5. In our deepest most introspective experience and knowledge of ourselves, we have an acquaintance of this immaterial self. In fact it is so intuitive that it is all but taken for granted!

I don't see any of those as arguments, but as assumptions; the assumptions of mind-body dualism. As one might expect, such assumptions appeal to strong intuitions, but that is essentially all they can appeal to. Consciousness still remains largely mysterious to us, but there is little reason to believe that consciousness is something of a different "substance" to the rest of reality, and that it somehow (in ways yet not specified) hangs as a cloud over our corporeal selves.

I choose to spend time on certain posts questions, and replies according to the time I have available (very limited), and several other factors such as level of pertinence to the subject, etc.

I simply do not have time Archaeopteryx, to engage in discussion with people who, for various reasons, I cannot determine are sincerely interested in fruitful discussion. I very well could be wrong about Davian's intentions, I know I could be. But I wholeheartedly do not believe that I am. Davian does not even believe that the word "God" has any meaning Archaeopteryx. Why would I spend my time answering his rephrased, reworded already asked questions, when I could be spending my time answering your questions?

I have to make choices here on how to spend my time. I have already spent upwards of three hours on these responses to you. I simply do not have the time to answer everyone here and thus must prioritize these replies to the KCA.

I have the right to simply refuse to respond to irrelevant, pointless posts. Now if Davian desires to discard the self-defeating view of positivism, then we can have an honest open discussion. If not then that is his choice.

For someone who frequently reminds others of the decorum expected on a Philosophy board, you seem to have no qualms about breaking decorum when it suits you. Philosophers often suspend their own beliefs while engaging in a discussion for the sake of that discussion. That is why you will sometimes read "Suppose that we accept X's argument that such and such occurs..." It would be impossible to fruitfully engage in any discourse on these matters if one continued to assert that a person has no right to speak on whether an argument is cogent unless he believes that the argument's conclusion (in this case, God) has meaning. If that is the route you want to take then the only people who are allowed to object to your argument are theists (incidentally, people who are least likely to object for obvious reasons).
 
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