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Elioenai26

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I've never seen a "nothing". I think it misstating of the problem we are addressing.

The difference here is the universe being proceeded with a "nothing" which is a state of existence I am unfamiliar with, as opposed to say, a timeless singularity (which I am also unfamiliar with) as opposed to a timeless deity (which is also unfamiliar).

You are still missing my point. I am not even talking about the universe.

"Nothing" is not a state of existence anyway, its no-thing. Nor is there such a thing as a timeless singularity. We are not talking about deities either!

Im talking about the fact that never has there been recorded in the history of human observation that something has come from nothing.

Every philosopher, scientist, physicist etc. etc. will tell you that something cannot come from nothing, for nothing is no-thing!

You are thinking way too much about something that is so simple. Do you understand now?
 
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variant

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You are still missing my point. I am not even talking about the universe.

I find that debateable.

"Nothing" is not a state of existence anyway, its no-thing. Nor is there such a thing as a timeless singularity. We are not talking about deities either!

You should bring that point up with Stephen Hawkings (whom you quoted earlier). He thinks the universe goes back into timeless space.

Im talking about the fact that never has there been recorded in the history of human observation that something has come from nothing.

We are talking about something we are unfamiliar with regardless since we don't know how the universe started. ;) I've never experienced the birth of a universe either. ;)

Every philosopher, scientist, physicist etc. etc. will tell you that something cannot come from nothing, for nothing is no-thing!

I find the idea of nothing to be highly debateable in the first place.

You are thinking way too much about something that is so simple. Do you understand now?

No, you are trying to talk (athoritatively) about things you don't understand.

You don't understand MY points that this is a poorly understood phenomina that (you don't experience every day) and calling it absurd from YOUR perspective is meaningless.
 
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Elioenai26

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I find that debateable.



You should bring that point up with Stephen Hawkings (whom you quoted earlier). He thinks the universe goes back into timeless space.



We are talking about something we are unfamiliar with regardless since we don't know how the universe started. ;) I've never experienced the birth of a universe either. ;)



I find the idea of nothing to be highly debateable in the first place.



No, you are trying to talk (athoritatively) about things you don't understand.

You don't understand MY points that this is a poorly understood phenomina that (you don't experience every day) and calling it absurd from YOUR perspective is meaningless.

LOL Im not talking about the the universe coming into existence! Why are you not able to understand what I am saying?

If you can't understand this, then you and I cannot have an intellectual discussion.

This is basic stuff my friend.
 
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quatona

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LOL. Ok ok.

This is a philosophical thesis.

1. From nothing, nothing comes,
2. something cannot come from nothing,
3. nothing cannot produce something.

They are all different ways of saying the same thing.

For example, have you ever seen a horse appear into thin air from nothing?
I haven´t seen anything physical coming from something spiritual, either. Thus, when you conclude from observations within the universe on the universe itself, please be consistent.

On another note: If, as variant suggested, "nothing" is an impossible state of affairs statements like "something can not come from nothing" are operating with a non-concept and therefore redundant.
 
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variant

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LOL Im not talking about the the universe coming into existence! Why are you not able to understand what I am saying?

If you can't understand this, then you and I cannot have an intellectual discussion.

This is basic stuff my friend.

Basic yes, as in the basis for your argument.

Why base a conversation about the universe beginning on what I have or haven't seen?
 
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Elioenai26

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I haven´t seen anything physical coming from something spiritual, either. Thus, when you conclude from observations within the universe on the universe itself, please be consistent.

On another note: If, as variant suggested, "nothing" is an impossible state of affairs statements like "something can not come from nothing" are operating with a non-concept and therefore redundant.

Who said anything about "spiritual"?

I am talking pure philosophy in a philosophy forum, and several people seem to be unaware of the classical philosophical expression ex nihilo nihil fit and what it means!!!!!!:confused::doh::confused::doh::confused::doh:
 
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quatona

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Who said anything about "spiritual"?
I did, and I was referring to your idea that God created the universe.
If applying the criterium you appealed to, it blows your own idea out of the window, as well.

I am talking pure philosophy in a philosophy forum, and several people seem to be unaware of the classical philosophical expression ex nihilo nihil fit and what it means!!!!!!:confused::doh::confused::doh::confused::doh:
Yes. Philosophy even allows you to challenge classical philosophical expressions.
 
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Elioenai26

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Basic yes, as in the basis for your argument.

Why base a conversation about the universe beginning on what I have or haven't seen?

Basic in discussions of philosophy my friend.

I've been accused by many of not presenting a case for theism, and when I try to establish some sort of semblance of a foundation on which to work, you and another person have already made it perfectly clear that you can't even bring yourself to agree that from nothing, nothing comes!!!!

And that in a philosophy forum!!! :doh:
 
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Elioenai26

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I did, and I was referring to your idea that God created the universe.


Yes. Philosophy even allows you to challenge classical philosophical expressions.

I see you do not want to be serious, so I am released from any demand that you may place upon me for evidence regarding the theistic worldview.

I see you are willfully refusing to engage in sincere discussion and I am sorry that you have chosen this path.
 
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variant

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Basic in discussions of philosophy my friend.

That is why we leave these things to the physicists.

Granting the idea (for arguments sake) that something dosen't come from nothing dosen't get you closer to having a decent argument though.

Philosophically I can grant every premice of yours and still have no problem with the argument.

I already showed you why.

(or you did since YOU were the one who brought up Occams Razor and Stephen Hawkings).
 
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quatona

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I see you do not want to be serious,
Rest assured, I am completely serious. I have no idea how you came to the conclusion I wasn´t.
so I am released from any demand that you may place upon me for evidence regarding the theistic worldview.
I have never demanded this from you. You came here with the claim that you had such evidence, and of course I took you by your word. If you can´t or don´t want to present it - no problem whatsoever.

I see you are willfully refusing to engage in sincere discussion and I am sorry that you have chosen this path.
No, you don´t see that. It´s not an observation, it´s your interpretation - and, again, a resorting to mind reading and ad hominem as a replacement for actual arguments. Its sort of becoming a pattern.
 
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Elioenai26

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Rest assured, I am completely serious. I have no idea how you came to the conclusion I wasn´t.

I have never demanded this from you. You came here with the claim that you had such evidence, and of course I took you by your word. If you can´t or don´t want to present it - no problem whatsoever.


No, you don´t see that. It´s not an observation, it´s your interpretation - and, again, a resorting to mind reading and ad hominem as a replacement for actual arguments. Its sort of becoming a pattern.

:hug:Have a good day. I pray you and yours are well! :wave:

If you want to speak with me any further, please just feel free to send me a PM anytime.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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Im talking about the fact that never has there been recorded in the history of human observation that something has come from nothing.

That's because in the history of human observation there's never been any evidence that "nothing" is a state of affairs that could logically exist.

Every philosopher, scientist, physicist etc. etc. will tell you that something cannot come from nothing, for nothing is no-thing!

Wrong.
 
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Eudaimonist

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I've been accused by many of not presenting a case for theism, and when I try to establish some sort of semblance of a foundation on which to work, you and another person have already made it perfectly clear that you can't even bring yourself to agree that from nothing, nothing comes!!!!

And that in a philosophy forum!!! :doh:

Philosophy isn't about dogmas, or at least not ideally. Even such ideas as ex nihilo nihil fit can be questioned or doubted. You shouldn't be surprised or shocked.

In any case, while I don't have any empirical evidence of the truth of that principle, it does satisfy my rational intuition. I would argue that change occurs according to the nature of the entities that are involved in that change. And since "nothingness" doesn't have a nature, since it is not an entity, it makes sense that "nothing" couldn't change into something.

For this reason, I conclude that there was never a state of affairs in which there was nothing at all. However, this is entirely consistent with godless naturalism.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Phileas

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You are still missing my point. I am not even talking about the universe.

"Nothing" is not a state of existence anyway, its no-thing. Nor is there such a thing as a timeless singularity. We are not talking about deities either!

Im talking about the fact that never has there been recorded in the history of human observation that something has come from nothing.

Every philosopher, scientist, physicist etc. etc. will tell you that something cannot come from nothing, for nothing is no-thing!

You are thinking way too much about something that is so simple. Do you understand now?

I think a quantum physicist would disagree on that one. You empty space of all matter and the vaccuum left behind would still be fizzing with a minimum background level of potential energy (which is as far as I know the planck constant) due to the various fields of the universe being interconnected. This can result in the production of short lived particles and anti-particles that briefly interact with the surroundings before annihilating each other (we're talking about this happening within around 5.4x10^-44 seconds).

There is a major problem with infinite regression to an unmoved mover. The universe is something and therefore requires a cause. God is implied to be the cause, but then what caused God? Ah, but nothing caused God for He is the uncaused cause. So why can't the universe be the uncaused cause and just remove that extra bit of regression. Because the universe is something and therefore requires a cause. Does that not then imply that God is not something as He requires no cause?

This problem is a bit like the urban legend about the turtles. Common sense tells us everything has to be resting on something or it will fall down, therefore the Earth has to be resting on something. That something might as well be a turtle, but then what is the turtle resting on? Well after that it's turtles all the way down. The actual truth of the matter is so outrageously outside of our everyday experience (barely a handful of people have actually experienced zero gravity) that it's a wonder we actually figured it out as early as we did. I reckon the answer to the cause of the universe will be much the same; something entirely different to anything we experience and entirely unexpected.
 
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Elioenai26

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I thank you Phileas, for I see you are actually seeking to engage in meaningful discussion instead of relying on cynicism and sarcasm.

I also recognize some of the arguments you are using.

I think a quantum physicist would disagree on that one.

They would only disagree if they maintain that a vaccuum is no-thing.

But do they maintain that a vaccuum in space is "nothing"? And should they. I do not know of many that maintain this. However, I do know of a contemporary philosopher who does.

The American contemporary philosopher Quentin Smith maintains that a quantum vaccuum in which short lived particles and anti-particles interact, qualifies as these particles coming into existence from nothing.

But is this accurate? There are several reasons why it is not:

The motions of elementary particles described by statistical quantum mechanical laws, even if uncaused, do not constitute an exception to this principle that states:

1.' Whatever begins to exist has a cause.

Even Quentin Smith who uses this as part of his argument himself admits: "at most tend to show that acausal laws govern the change of condition of particles, such as the change of particle x's position from q1 to q2. They state nothing about the causality or acausality of absolute beginnings, of beginnings of the existence of particles" (p. 50).

Smith seeks rectify this defect in his argument, however, by pointing out that the Uncertainty relation also permits energy or particles (notably virtual particles) to "spontaneously come into existence" for a very brief time before vanishing again. It is therefore false that "all beginnings of existence are caused" and, hence, ". . . the crucial step in the argument to a supernatural cause of the Big Bang . . . is faulty" (pp. 50-51).

But as a counterexample to (1'), Smith's use of such vacuum fluctuations is highly misleading. For virtual particles do not literally come into existence spontaneously out of nothing. Rather the energy locked up in a vacuum fluctuates spontaneously in such a way as to convert into evanescent particles that return almost immediately to the vacuum.

As John Barrow and Frank Tipler comment, ". . . the modern picture of the quantum vacuum differs radically from the classical and everyday meaning of a vacuum-- nothing. . . . The quantum vacuum (or vacuua, as there can exist many) states . . . are defined simply as local, or global, energy minima (V'(O)= O, V"(O)>O)" ([1986], p. 440).

The microstructure of the quantum vacuum is a sea of continually forming and dissolving particles which borrow energy from the vacuum for their brief existence. A quantum vacuum is thus far from nothing, and vacuum fluctuations do not constitute an exception to the principle that whatever begins to exist has a cause. Credit goes to Dr. William Lane Craig for all of the above.

There is a major problem with infinite regression to an unmoved mover. The universe is something and therefore requires a cause. God is implied to be the cause, but then what caused God? Ah, but nothing caused God for He is the uncaused cause. So why can't the universe be the uncaused cause and just remove that extra bit of regression. Because the universe is something and therefore requires a cause. Does that not then imply that God is not something as He requires no cause?

Excellent question!

When you use the word "something" you are referring to a contingent entity. The universe and all the hierarchy of contingent things that might be imagined to exist within it is itself contingent. Why?

Because of the principle which states that everything that begins to exist must have a cause for it's existence.

Cosmology has shown us that the universe is not eternal but that it came to be at some point in the distant past. And since no one seriously can maintain that something can come from nothing, it remains that the universe is contingent.

God, it is maintained, is not contingent upon anything because He is immaterial and aseitc (uncaused) and therefore can be the unmoved mover and/or the uncaused cause.

I mean think about it for a moment. Does it not make sense? As far back as your mind can go, it has to end with the concept of the greatest conceivable being who is everything that the God of the Bible reveals Himself to be.

In fact, it is necessary that this God self-disclose Himself to us. For apart from this, we could not know anything about Him. The apostle Paul says He has done this in several ways, namely through what has been created!

When we look at the universe, we are to understand that this grandeur is evidence of God's existence.

Before the discovery that the universe had a beginning, people could more plausibly maintain that the universe was simply eternal. But that is not honestly maintainable now.

Every true scientific discovery only serves to lend credibility to Genesis 1:1 which states:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth...





 
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Elioenai26

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Philosophy isn't about dogmas, or at least not ideally. Even such ideas as ex nihilo nihil fit can be questioned or doubted. You shouldn't be surprised or shocked.

In any case, while I don't have any empirical evidence of the truth of that principle, it does satisfy my rational intuition. I would argue that change occurs according to the nature of the entities that are involved in that change. And since "nothingness" doesn't have a nature, since it is not an entity, it makes sense that "nothing" couldn't change into something.

For this reason, I conclude that there was never a state of affairs in which there was nothing at all. However, this is entirely consistent with godless naturalism.


eudaimonia,

Mark

So what do you maintain was this "something" that made it impossible for a state of affairs in which there was nothing at all, to become the universe as we know it today?
 
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dcyates

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Just for clarification...
My question is:
Once we were to accept that the existence of uncaused causes is possible/necessary - what would keep us from considering/postulating two, three, ten, thousands or countless uncaused causes, and instead decide that this must be a unique phenomenon?
So are you suggesting that the creation of the universe may have been a team effort?
It was actually Aristotle who posited the necessity of the 'Uncaused Cause'/'Unmoved Mover'.
 
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