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Why an eternal hell?
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Kormagh
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Timothew said:
Hell is Necessary Pastor Tim Conway
Pastor Tim Conway explains what the Bible teaches about Hell, using descriptions used even by Jesus Himself of the place where people will spend an eternity in fiery torments because of the sins they've committed against an eternal God. He expounds on four points:
1. The Security of the World--Those who aren't saved don't believe that they will indeed end up in Hell.
2. The Severity of Hell--How the Bible and Jesus Himself describes the fearsome severity of Hell.
3. The Suitability of Hell--Those who aren't saved deserve the severe punishment of Hell because their sins are proportionally severe in God's sight.
4. The Sanctity/Holiness of Hell--Hell and its punishment of sinners reveals just how holy God is, in showing that a sin against Him could result in such a devastating consequence.
Tim Conway is pastor of Grace Community Church in San Antonio, TX. The church also hosts the online media ministry I'll Be Honest on Youtube.
Sent from my dumb smart phone using CF
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dies-l
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gradyll said:
Thats true. I am content to let my arguments speak for themselves and to agree to disagree if you remain unconvinced. I would just encourage you to read through Scripture at some point, letting go of your presuppositions and your perceptions of what you are "supposed to" believe. I think that if you do that you will be in broader agreement with me than you think.
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dies-l
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This is one of the reasons I avoid labels. It is easier to say "annihilationism (or whatever label you might choose) is an unorthodox view, so I refuse to believe it" than it is to dig into the Scriptures to see what they actually teach. When we talk of "this is what I believe the Scriptures teach", then we can discuss whether or not that is accurate. But, when it becomes, "that sounds a lot like x, and x is unorthodox" then the focal point is on tradition and orthodoxy, rather than Truth and Scripture.
I am probably not as diplomatic as Tim is on this, because, yes I would accuse you eisegesis (everyone does it to some extent) on this. If you remove the traditional teachings on hell from the equation and focus only on what Scripture actually says, I do not see how it is possible to come up with "hell is a place where unredeemed sinners are tormented for eternity" or anything of the sort. To come up with this from Scripture, I believe that you have to begin with the presupposition that the traditional view is correct. I don't accept that presupposition, and I don't see any support for it in Scripture.
That's a fair position to take. I would just ask that at sometime or another you revisit this issue in Scripture, trying to abandon the presuppositions that are provided to you by the traditional view of hell. I think you will find that when you read Scripture without those presuppositions, your view of Hell will be radically different.
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Kormagh
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I agree with this view of hell. You call it traditional, I call it Biblical and historical.
http://www.reformedonline.com/view/reformedonline/hell.htm
Sent from my dumb smart phone using CF
http://www.reformedonline.com/view/reformedonline/hell.htm
Sent from my dumb smart phone using CF
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From my experience on CF, I disagree with the first line. I didn't read beyond that.
"The doctrine of eternal punishment is probably the most unpopular, hated and feared teaching in the entire Bible."
From what I've seen, the doctrine of eternal punishment is the most popular, loved and generally accepted "teaching" in the bible. The trouble is that the bible doesn't teach it. Every time I suggest that the wages of sin is actually death as the bible teaches, I am hammered by people who refuse to give up their cherished idea that the people they think are "bad" will burn alive forever in hell when they are dead.
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dies-l
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I would agree with this. It seems that the a lot of the hell apologists hold an incorrect view about the perception of their view. As Kormagh has said, to hold a view such as ours is unorthodox. The very meaning of that term suggests that the contrary view (that is which orthodox) is the more wildly popular view. Let's face, the hell of eternal torment is wildly popular because it speaks to the very core of our wounded souls. It says that those who have sinned against us will "get what's coming to them" unless they repent and choose to agree with us. It says that, however deeply we might hold on to our grudges, God holds on to his infinitely more deeply. It says that our revenge will be exacted by an infinitely powerful God. To hurt and broken people, this is a powerfully uplifting message.
But, the message of the Bible is the God is full of grace and mercy, and while He is also a just God, He is not a God of petty vengeance. He does not delight in the suffering of others. And, most importantly, he doesn't condemn anyone to eternal suffering. That is the God that is described in the Bible, and that God doesn't sit well with hurt and broken people . . . until they are ready to receive that grace and mercy for themselves . . . and extend it freely to others.
Sadly, I find that I am often accused of taking the "unorthodox view" for convenience or to avoid being unpopular. The irony is that it would far easier to be popular if I simply accepted the unbiblical traditional view that is held by "orthodox" Christians.
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dies-l
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I found this article on a website posted in another thread and found it helpful:
The Origin of Hell-Fire in Christian Teaching
The Origin of Hell-Fire in Christian Teaching
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createdtoworship
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Immortality of the soul, taught by the ancient greeks, but not fully accurate.....Early Christians were the first to believe in ONE soul that was eternal.
Turtullian states:
I will go further, and say that the soul does not even fall into sleep along with the body, nor does it with its companion even lie down in repose. For it is agitated in dreams, and disturbed: it might, however, rest, if it lay down; and lie down it certainly would, if it fell. Thus that which does not fall even into the likeness of death, does not succumb to the reality thereof. Passing now to the other word mortuorum, I wish you to look carefully, and see to what substance it is applicable. Were we to allow, under this head, as is sometimes held by the heretics, that the soul is mortal, so that being mortal it shall attain to a resurrection; this would afford a presumption that the flesh also, being no less mortal, would share in the same resurrection. But our present point is to derive from the proper signification of this word an idea of the destiny which it indicates. Now, just as the term resurrection is predicated of that which falls—that is, the flesh—so will there be the same application of the word dead, because what is called “the resurrection of the dead” indicates the rising up again of that which is fallen down. We learn this from the case of Abraham, the father of the faithful, a man who enjoyed close intercourse with God. For when he requested of the sons of Heth a spot to bury Sarah in, he said to them, “Give me the possession of a burying place with you, that I may bury my dead,”110 —meaning, of course, her flesh; for he could not have desired a place to bury her soul in, even if the soul is to be deemed mortal, and even if it could bear to be described by the word “dead.” Since, then, this word indicates the body, it follows that when “the resurrection of the dead” is spoken of, it is the rising again of men’s bodies that is meant.
110 Gen. xxiii. 4.
Roberts, Alexander ; Donaldson, James ; Coxe, A. Cleveland: The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol. III : Translations of the Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325. Oak Harbor : Logos Research Systems, 1997, S. 558
about Greek influence on Early Christians:
Some of them deny the immortality of the soul; others affirm that it is immortal, and something more... it will be for Christians to clear away....Whatever noxious vapours, accordingly, exhaled from philosophy, obscure the clear and wholesome atmosphere of truth,..., both by shattering to pieces the arguments which are drawn from the principles of things—I mean those of the philosophers—and by opposing to them the maxims of heavenly wisdom
Turtullian; Ibid. S. 184
If it had been possible to construct the soul and to destroy it, it would no longer be immortal. Since, however, it is not mortal, it is also incapable of dissolution and division.
Turtullian; Ibid. S. 193
The attributes that belong to the soul's own proper condition are these: immortality, rationality, sensibility, intelligence, and freedom of the will...All these endowments of the soul which are bestowed on it at birth are still obscured and depraved by the malignant being who, in the beginning, regarded them with envious eye, so that they are never seen in their spontaneous action, nor are they administered as they ought to be.
Turtullian; Ibid. S. 219
Being Himself immortal, God wills that the soul should also be everlasting
Lactantius (304-313, W), 7.77
"the body can do nothing without the soul. But the soul can do many and great things without the body....The soul is not the same thing as the mind. For it is one thing to live and another thing to think. And it is the mind of the sleeping person that is at rest--not the soul. And in those who are insane, it is the mind that is not functioning; the soul continues to function. For that reason, they are said to be out of the minds"
Lactantius; Ibid. 7.208, 209
"The soul cannot entirely perish, for it received its origin from the Spirit of God, which is eternal....So long as the soul is united with the body, it is destitute of virtue, and it grows sick by the contagion of the body and from sharing its frailty....However, once the soul is disunited from the body, it will flourish by itself.
...It is not the soul that becomes senseless when the body fails. Rather, it is the body that becomes senseless when the soul takes it departure"
"We acknowledge with us a soul that is incorporeal and immortal"
Apostolic Constitutions (compiled c.390, E), 7.454; extended discussion; 3.181-3.220; 4.286-4.289
For observe, these men asserted that the soul was immortal, or rather, they did not merely assert this, but persuaded others of it.
"and so these last were victorious over Plato and Pythagoras, in short, over all that had gone astray; and they surpass those whose lives had been worn out in31 astrology and geometry, mathematics and arithmetic, and who had been thoroughly instructed in32 every sort of learning, and33 were as much superior to them as true and real philosophers are superior to those who are by nature foolish and out of their senses.34 For observe, these men asserted that the soul was immortal, or rather, they did not merely assert this, but persuaded others of it. The Greeks, on the contrary, did not at first know what manner of thing the soul was, and when they had found out, and had distinguished it from the body, they were again in the same case, the one asserting that it was incorporeal, the other that it was corporeal and was dissolved with the body."
31 al. “who were familiar with.”
32 al. “had got together.”
33 al. “these they cast as dust, and.”
34 al. “so that these appeared henceforward to be truly philosophers, but those fools by nature and out of their senses.”
St. John Chrisostom
Schaff, Philip: The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers Vol. XIV. Oak Harbor : Logos Research Systems, 1997, S. 234
but we have an immortal soul, that we may use every means to prepare ourselves for that other life. For if one enquire the use of horses and asses and oxen, and other such-like animals, we shall tell him that it is nothing else but only to minister to the present life; but this cannot be said of us; our best condition is that which follows on our departure hence; and we must do all that we may shine there, that we may join the choir of Angels, and stand before the King continually, through endless55 ages. And therefore the soul is immortal, and the body shall be immortal too, that we may enjoy the never-ending blessings.
55 al. “incorrupt.”
St John Chrisostom; Ibid. S. 111
having filled His eleven disciples with His mighty31 power, He sent them to men throughout all the world, to be the common healers of all their kind,32 to correct their way of living, to spread through every part of the earth the knowledge of their heavenly doctrines, to break down the tyranny of devils, to teach those great and ineffable blessings, to bring to us the glad tidings of the soul’s immortality, and the eternal life of the body, and rewards which are beyond conception, and shall never have an end.
31 al. “a certain irresistible and divine.”
32 Or “of their whole nature.”
St John Chrisostom; Ibid. S. 42
Turtullian states:
I will go further, and say that the soul does not even fall into sleep along with the body, nor does it with its companion even lie down in repose. For it is agitated in dreams, and disturbed: it might, however, rest, if it lay down; and lie down it certainly would, if it fell. Thus that which does not fall even into the likeness of death, does not succumb to the reality thereof. Passing now to the other word mortuorum, I wish you to look carefully, and see to what substance it is applicable. Were we to allow, under this head, as is sometimes held by the heretics, that the soul is mortal, so that being mortal it shall attain to a resurrection; this would afford a presumption that the flesh also, being no less mortal, would share in the same resurrection. But our present point is to derive from the proper signification of this word an idea of the destiny which it indicates. Now, just as the term resurrection is predicated of that which falls—that is, the flesh—so will there be the same application of the word dead, because what is called “the resurrection of the dead” indicates the rising up again of that which is fallen down. We learn this from the case of Abraham, the father of the faithful, a man who enjoyed close intercourse with God. For when he requested of the sons of Heth a spot to bury Sarah in, he said to them, “Give me the possession of a burying place with you, that I may bury my dead,”110 —meaning, of course, her flesh; for he could not have desired a place to bury her soul in, even if the soul is to be deemed mortal, and even if it could bear to be described by the word “dead.” Since, then, this word indicates the body, it follows that when “the resurrection of the dead” is spoken of, it is the rising again of men’s bodies that is meant.
110 Gen. xxiii. 4.
Roberts, Alexander ; Donaldson, James ; Coxe, A. Cleveland: The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol. III : Translations of the Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325. Oak Harbor : Logos Research Systems, 1997, S. 558
about Greek influence on Early Christians:
Some of them deny the immortality of the soul; others affirm that it is immortal, and something more... it will be for Christians to clear away....Whatever noxious vapours, accordingly, exhaled from philosophy, obscure the clear and wholesome atmosphere of truth,..., both by shattering to pieces the arguments which are drawn from the principles of things—I mean those of the philosophers—and by opposing to them the maxims of heavenly wisdom
Turtullian; Ibid. S. 184
If it had been possible to construct the soul and to destroy it, it would no longer be immortal. Since, however, it is not mortal, it is also incapable of dissolution and division.
Turtullian; Ibid. S. 193
The attributes that belong to the soul's own proper condition are these: immortality, rationality, sensibility, intelligence, and freedom of the will...All these endowments of the soul which are bestowed on it at birth are still obscured and depraved by the malignant being who, in the beginning, regarded them with envious eye, so that they are never seen in their spontaneous action, nor are they administered as they ought to be.
Turtullian; Ibid. S. 219
Being Himself immortal, God wills that the soul should also be everlasting
Lactantius (304-313, W), 7.77
"the body can do nothing without the soul. But the soul can do many and great things without the body....The soul is not the same thing as the mind. For it is one thing to live and another thing to think. And it is the mind of the sleeping person that is at rest--not the soul. And in those who are insane, it is the mind that is not functioning; the soul continues to function. For that reason, they are said to be out of the minds"
Lactantius; Ibid. 7.208, 209
"The soul cannot entirely perish, for it received its origin from the Spirit of God, which is eternal....So long as the soul is united with the body, it is destitute of virtue, and it grows sick by the contagion of the body and from sharing its frailty....However, once the soul is disunited from the body, it will flourish by itself.
...It is not the soul that becomes senseless when the body fails. Rather, it is the body that becomes senseless when the soul takes it departure"
"We acknowledge with us a soul that is incorporeal and immortal"
Apostolic Constitutions (compiled c.390, E), 7.454; extended discussion; 3.181-3.220; 4.286-4.289
For observe, these men asserted that the soul was immortal, or rather, they did not merely assert this, but persuaded others of it.
"and so these last were victorious over Plato and Pythagoras, in short, over all that had gone astray; and they surpass those whose lives had been worn out in31 astrology and geometry, mathematics and arithmetic, and who had been thoroughly instructed in32 every sort of learning, and33 were as much superior to them as true and real philosophers are superior to those who are by nature foolish and out of their senses.34 For observe, these men asserted that the soul was immortal, or rather, they did not merely assert this, but persuaded others of it. The Greeks, on the contrary, did not at first know what manner of thing the soul was, and when they had found out, and had distinguished it from the body, they were again in the same case, the one asserting that it was incorporeal, the other that it was corporeal and was dissolved with the body."
31 al. “who were familiar with.”
32 al. “had got together.”
33 al. “these they cast as dust, and.”
34 al. “so that these appeared henceforward to be truly philosophers, but those fools by nature and out of their senses.”
St. John Chrisostom
Schaff, Philip: The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers Vol. XIV. Oak Harbor : Logos Research Systems, 1997, S. 234
but we have an immortal soul, that we may use every means to prepare ourselves for that other life. For if one enquire the use of horses and asses and oxen, and other such-like animals, we shall tell him that it is nothing else but only to minister to the present life; but this cannot be said of us; our best condition is that which follows on our departure hence; and we must do all that we may shine there, that we may join the choir of Angels, and stand before the King continually, through endless55 ages. And therefore the soul is immortal, and the body shall be immortal too, that we may enjoy the never-ending blessings.
55 al. “incorrupt.”
St John Chrisostom; Ibid. S. 111
having filled His eleven disciples with His mighty31 power, He sent them to men throughout all the world, to be the common healers of all their kind,32 to correct their way of living, to spread through every part of the earth the knowledge of their heavenly doctrines, to break down the tyranny of devils, to teach those great and ineffable blessings, to bring to us the glad tidings of the soul’s immortality, and the eternal life of the body, and rewards which are beyond conception, and shall never have an end.
31 al. “a certain irresistible and divine.”
32 Or “of their whole nature.”
St John Chrisostom; Ibid. S. 42
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The views and teachings of hell today hardly agree with those of the majority of the early church. When politics took over religion "Rome", hell was redefined to more of a pagan theme, torture, pain, levels, etc...Even the many secular historians admit this. This gave the church/government great control over the masses...Sadly, when the church accepted a God that would torture, the church became an agent of torture themselves, after all, if God could do it, why not they in his name.
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dayhiker
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addressing the OP.
I think people are in hell because they want to do evil, or to put it another way, they don't want to repent. As soon as they are willing to allow God to change them, then they can go to heaven. Heaven is suppose to be a place of love. If God accepts evil people into heaven then I don't know how heaven could be a place of love.
I think people are in hell because they want to do evil, or to put it another way, they don't want to repent. As soon as they are willing to allow God to change them, then they can go to heaven. Heaven is suppose to be a place of love. If God accepts evil people into heaven then I don't know how heaven could be a place of love.
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createdtoworship
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you seem to know a lot of history of the church, what year was that? That this all happened?
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createdtoworship
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there are dozens of verses stating we must repent to be saved! You are correct!
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Ave Maria
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I am not certain why God made punishment in Hell to be eternal. However, if it were not eternal then one of two things would have to happen to the souls who went there: A. Be annihilated or B. Be admitted to Heaven. Well, the fact is, if you die in a state of mortal sin then you cannot be forgiven of this sin after you die. There is no forgiveness once you are in the grave. Also, the soul is eternal. The soul never ceases to exist so that rules out annihilationism.
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Just someone does not think that god is real does not mean that they are evil. There are people who give there whole lives to serving others and trying to make the world a better place, but they see no reason to believe in god, so therefore they are evil and deserve to burn in a lake of fire forever?
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The soul is supposed to be who we truly are right? Our bodies dont have a soul, our souls have a body, so when our physical body gives out, why cant our souls still be forgiven?
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Not a year, a progression starting around 300AD, when Roman politics and powers hijacked christianity.
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createdtoworship
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so why do we hold the exact same truths as those prior to 300 A.D.?
http://www.christianforums.com/t7648154-52/#post60526941
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