Atheism (2)

[someguy14]

Life or death. It is a choice.

 

[quatona]

do you believe something created the universe, or that it came from nothing?

"created from nothing by an uncaused non-phyical cause" and "came from nothing" are both exceptional claims (i.e. they postulate options that contradict the laws we observe within the universe).
If I apply the same standard to both they are both equally valid or invalid "explanations".

Of course, they aren´t the only available options when it comes to exceptional claims.

 

[createdtoworship]

"created from nothing by an uncaused non-phyical cause" and "came from nothing" are both exceptional claims (i.e. they postulate options that contradict the laws we observe within the universe).
If I apply the same standard to both they are both equally valid or invalid "explanations".

Of course, they aren´t the only available options when it comes to exceptional claims.

non physical causes? Like what?

 

[createdtoworship]

Neither. That's a false alternative.

My view is that the universe (in the general sense of physical reality) is uncreated, and existed at the very beginning of time/change.


eudaimonia,

Mark

but time is a physical property (look it up)

and so time would not work without matter involved in the universe.

so something had to create this time simultaneous to the matter in order for their even to be a "beginning" of anything.

 

[createdtoworship]

This wiki page (Ex nihilo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) indicates that the idea of Creatio ex nihilo didn't become a thing until the 2nd century AD.

That the word could mean that, it need not and appears likely that it doesn't.

I should note that I quoted from Christian websites to minimize the question of bias. That bara could mean "ex nihilo" the first time doesn't mean that this is what was meant.

As noted in my earlier post there are 3 possibilities: 1) There is a contradiction, 2) the author used the word inconsistently though legitimately (and thus you cannot know what he meant), and 3) he didn't use the word to ever mean "out of nothing" -- possibly because the concept didn't exist.

well quoting biblical lexicons and dictionaries is how you find out
bara tends to mean created, while asa means make of existing material.
http://studybible.info/strongs/H1254

 

[Belk]

but time is a physical property (look it up)

and so time would not work without matter involved in the universe.

so something had to create this time simultaneous to the matter in order for their even to be a "beginning" of anything.

Close, but not quite. Matter is not a requirement, just space time. Time would have no meaning prior to the space-time expansion event (The BB). Prior to plank time after the expansion event all the maths break down. If you wish to claim that God caused the expansion I have no issues with that. Saying that God is the only possible explanation I do have issues with. You would have to rule out all other possibilities and since we don't even know what they might be that is a very difficult task.

 

[createdtoworship]

Close, but not quite. Matter is not a requirement, just space time. Time would have no meaning prior to the space-time expansion event (The BB). Prior to plank time after the expansion event all the maths break down. If you wish to claim that God caused the expansion I have no issues with that. Saying that God is the only possible explanation I do have issues with. You would have to rule out all other possibilities and since we don't even know what they might be that is a very difficult task.

well, how to explain that time varies with mass?

 

[quatona]

non physical causes? Like what?

Isn´t your god supposed to be a non physical cause?

 

[Belk]

well, how to explain that time varies with mass?

Because mass causes a curvature of space-time.

 

[createdtoworship]

Because mass causes a curvature of space-time.

time is a dimension of our space, and therefore you can't distinguish them from each other.

here is a clip from a creationist site:

Time Stands Still

The new metric is not complicated, compared to many modern ones. Because it is simple and yet rigorous, it shows a feature of gravitational time dilation that nobody had noticed before. The feature was implicit in many previous metrics, but it had been obscured by the effects of motion. Humphreys calls this feature of time dilation achronicity, or “timelessness.” It causes clocks and all physical processes—hence, time itself—to be completely stopped in a region that could be very large. This is in contrast to the time dilation around a black hole, in which time is completely stopped only at a certain exact distance from its center, at the “event horizon.”3 In his 2008 article, Humphreys showed how this new metric led straightforwardly to achronicity. In the last five pages of the paper, he applied the time dilation achronicity to develop a new creationist cosmology.

Space Is Like a Scroll

The first step in understanding this new cosmology is to recognize that space is not empty. Both science and Scripture strongly imply that space is a solid material that we cannot see or feel, though quantum field theory suggests it is extremely dense.1 We move freely through it and it moves freely through us.4 See Scriptures like Isaiah 40:22: “[God] stretches out the heavens like a [tent] curtain” (NASB), and 16 other similar verses.5 These verses invite us to compare the material of space to a stretchable fabric under tension,6 like that in a trampoline.

Next, think about the space we live in. It appears to have only three dimensions, or directions—length, width, and height. Lay a piece of typing paper flat on a table. It is 8.5 inches wide by 11 inches long, but it is only 0.003 inches thick. It does not occupy much of the height direction at all. Now roll up the paper like a scroll. You used the third dimension, height, in the air above the table to roll it up, and the thinness of the paper allowed you to do so. So if an object is thin in one of its dimensions, you can roll it up. But here is an amazing thing—Scripture says the same thing about the heavens:

...
The Analogy of the Trampoline

So, if the heavens are thin in one dimension, and like a stretchable fabric under tension, we can compare them to the fabric in a trampoline. Put a heavy ring inside the circular frame on the trampoline. Notice that the weight of the ring makes a dent in the fabric of the trampoline, as in Figure 3. In just the same way (but with more dimensions), Einstein’s gravity equations say the presence of a mass bends the fabric of space.12 For dents that are not very deep, this picture also fits Newton’s gravity equations.13

The slope of the fabric is proportional to gravitational force. If we put a marble on the sloped part, it will roll inward toward the ring. Notice that if we put the marble inside the ring, it sits in a flat region and does not try to roll anywhere. This corresponds to the fact that in both Newton’s and Einstein’s gravity equations, the gravitational force is zero inside an empty hollow sphere.

The depth of the dent at any given point is proportional to the gravitational energy14 at that point. Inside the ring, all points are at the same depth below where they would be if we had not put the ring on the trampoline. This corresponds to the fact that in both Newton’s and Einstein’s equations, particles inside a hollow sphere of mass have a lower15 gravitational energy than they would if the hollow sphere did not exist.

from

A New Creationist Cosmology: In No Time at All Part 1

 

[Gadarene]

I feel like we're veering into TimeCube territory here

 

[Belk]

time is a dimension of our space, and therefore you can't distinguish them from each other.

Spacetime - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is actually considered to be a different sort of dimension from what i understand but I am not a physicist

here is a clip from a creationist site:

Time Stands Still

The new metric is not complicated, compared to many modern ones. Because it is simple and yet rigorous, it shows a feature of gravitational time dilation that nobody had noticed before. The feature was implicit in many previous metrics, but it had been obscured by the effects of motion. Humphreys calls this feature of time dilation achronicity, or “timelessness.” It causes clocks and all physical processes—hence, time itself—to be completely stopped in a region that could be very large. This is in contrast to the time dilation around a black hole, in which time is completely stopped only at a certain exact distance from its center, at the “event horizon.”3 In his 2008 article, Humphreys showed how this new metric led straightforwardly to achronicity. In the last five pages of the paper, he applied the time dilation achronicity to develop a new creationist cosmology.

Space Is Like a Scroll

The first step in understanding this new cosmology is to recognize that space is not empty. Both science and Scripture strongly imply that space is a solid material that we cannot see or feel, though quantum field theory suggests it is extremely dense.1 We move freely through it and it moves freely through us.4 See Scriptures like Isaiah 40:22: “[God] stretches out the heavens like a [tent] curtain” (NASB), and 16 other similar verses.5 These verses invite us to compare the material of space to a stretchable fabric under tension,6 like that in a trampoline.

Next, think about the space we live in. It appears to have only three dimensions, or directions—length, width, and height. Lay a piece of typing paper flat on a table. It is 8.5 inches wide by 11 inches long, but it is only 0.003 inches thick. It does not occupy much of the height direction at all. Now roll up the paper like a scroll. You used the third dimension, height, in the air above the table to roll it up, and the thinness of the paper allowed you to do so. So if an object is thin in one of its dimensions, you can roll it up. But here is an amazing thing—Scripture says the same thing about the heavens:

...
The Analogy of the Trampoline

So, if the heavens are thin in one dimension, and like a stretchable fabric under tension, we can compare them to the fabric in a trampoline. Put a heavy ring inside the circular frame on the trampoline. Notice that the weight of the ring makes a dent in the fabric of the trampoline, as in Figure 3. In just the same way (but with more dimensions), Einstein’s gravity equations say the presence of a mass bends the fabric of space.12 For dents that are not very deep, this picture also fits Newton’s gravity equations.13

The slope of the fabric is proportional to gravitational force. If we put a marble on the sloped part, it will roll inward toward the ring. Notice that if we put the marble inside the ring, it sits in a flat region and does not try to roll anywhere. This corresponds to the fact that in both Newton’s and Einstein’s gravity equations, the gravitational force is zero inside an empty hollow sphere.

The depth of the dent at any given point is proportional to the gravitational energy14 at that point. Inside the ring, all points are at the same depth below where they would be if we had not put the ring on the trampoline. This corresponds to the fact that in both Newton’s and Einstein’s equations, particles inside a hollow sphere of mass have a lower15 gravitational energy than they would if the hollow sphere did not exist.

from

A New Creationist Cosmology: In No Time at All Part 1

That sounds close to my understanding as well. Not sure about their whole "achronicity" idea though.

 

[createdtoworship]

Spacetime - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is actually considered to be a different sort of dimension from what i understand but I am not a physicist

yeah space has three dimensions, plus time.

 

[someguy14]

Isn´t your god supposed to be a non physical cause?

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Mark 13:19
For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

Colossians 1:16-17
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Mark 13:19
For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

Colossians 1:16-17
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

And that matters how?

 

[Eudaimonist]

but time is a physical property (look it up)

I agree that time (or, rather, change) is a physical property.

and so time would not work without matter involved in the universe.

I'll assume for purposes of this discussion that "matter" means anything physical, even what is sometimes called "energy", and what is called "spacetime".

Given that, I agree that something has to be there. For time to exist, something has to change.

so something had to create this time simultaneous to the matter in order for their even to be a "beginning" of anything.

No, nothing has to "create time". Time and matter go together. Matter changes by its nature. So, time does not have to be created. It is a product of matter. You've just said that it's a physical property.

Neither does matter have to be created, unless you want to suggest that God has to be created.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[someguy14]

And that matters how?

Admitting the truth, is a wise move.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Admitting the truth, is a wise move.

Agreed.... but what does bible verses have anything to do with truth?

 

[someguy14]

Neither does matter have to be created, unless you want to suggest that God has to be created.


eudaimonia,

Mark

How glorious it is to understand where it came from.

 

[Eudaimonist]

here is a clip from a creationist site:

Learning science from a creationist site is like trying to learn modern medicine from a voodoo site.


eudaimonia,

Mark