Atheism (2)

[KCfromNC]

Or an uncaused naturalistic process could have done it.

It relies on as many assertions as you're making. Neither have any prior evidence.

This actually takes fewer assertions, since you don't have to make up a bunch of stuff about gods to make the story work. We've seen natural processes do stuff before, but evidence for gods is conspicuously absent.

 

[KCfromNC]

well it's about as likely that a tornado went through a junk yard and created a Boeing 747.

What exactly are the odds of each event happening? I'd love to see your calculations of the probabilities of both events so we can double-check your work.

 

[KCfromNC]

Thats a problem with the Bible, take it up with God.

OK. She told me to tell you that you're wrong.

Using personal revelation as an argument is so much fun.

 

[Eudaimonist]

okay how about a boeing 747 coming out of a tornado wrecked junk yard.

thats the evidence for design.

How is that evidence for design?

Let me ask you this. Perhaps you've heard this one.

You are walking along a beach, and you happen across a working clock, which you pick up and examine. You ask yourself: was this clock designed? You decide that it almost certainly was, or how else could it be there? Could sand just spontaneously form into a clock?

So, you put the clock down, and notice it scurry away on little legs towards yet another clock. It mates with that clock...

The moral of the story is: it makes a great deal of difference to any issue of assembly just what sort of entity one is talking about. If it involves anything like replicating strands of DNA, then there might be a process of assembly that is not in any way like an airplane falling together.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Dave Ellis]

God provided the money

No, your employer likely did.

Ultimately, the government and mint provided the money

 

[Dave Ellis]

you assume the age dating factors of the Bible untrue. Adam was fully developed when he was created. Eve too. They were not embryos that had to grow to full state. Also the trees, they were created full grown. Why not create a world with age dating factors in it.

I didn't make a comment on the age dating factors of the bible.... I'm not sure where you're even going with that argument?

As for Adam, Eve and the trees..... Can you demonstrate Adam and Eve even existed? And how do you know them, and the trees were "created" as full adults?

The whole Adam and Eve/Garden of Eden story is kinda ridiculous to be honest. I'm honestly surprised you're attempting to argue it from a literally true position.

 

[Elioenai26]

This actually takes fewer assertions, since you don't have to make up a bunch of stuff about gods to make the story work. We've seen natural processes do stuff before, but evidence for gods is conspicuously absent.

All you have to do is come up with a rational explanation of how something can come from nothing and you are home free. I doubt however, that you will be able to. Seeing as how it is logically impossible. Ex nihilo nihil fit. Parmenides. Maybe you have read of him before?

 

[Dave Ellis]

at least you are actually stating it's design. Most in this forum won't even do that. Which is quite ridiculous.

It's obvious 747's are designed, humans designed them. In fact, assuming he's still alive we can meet and talk to the person who designed the 747.

There is nothing to suggest the universe was designed.

 

[Gadarene]

All you have to do is come up with a rational explanation of how something can come from nothing and you are home free. I doubt however, that you will be able to. Seeing as how it is logically impossible. Ex nihilo nihil fit. Parmenides. Maybe you have read of him before?

Oh, look. Name-dropping.

Try Lawrence Krauss, if you want an explanation about how something can come from nothing.

The problem in this debate is the frequent equivocation fallacy between "something from nothing" and "an expansion of the currently existing bubble of spacetime from a singularity, prompted possibly by quantum vacuum fluctuations (Krauss) or the collapse of a pre-existing universe (Penrose)".

The former is far more amenable to intuition-mongers like Craig and those who prefer simplistic argumentation as a matter of convenience.

 

[Dave Ellis]

All you have to do is come up with a rational explanation of how something can come from nothing and you are home free. I doubt however, that you will be able to. Seeing as how it is logically impossible. Ex nihilo nihil fit. Parmenides. Maybe you have read of him before?

I recommend you find a good optometrist.... they will provide you with a good pair of glasses that will allow you to read our arguments, as it's clear you're having trouble with that.

So, to restate the argument for once you get your pair of glasses: The Big Bang Theory does NOT claim something came from nothing.

Therefore we are not under any obligation to provide evidence or reasoning for a statement we are not making. No atheist on here has made the argument that something came from nothing.

In fact, the only people on here that are asserting something came from nothing are the Christians when they are talking about their God, or misrepresenting what the Big Bang Theory is.

 

[quatona]

All you have to do is come up with a rational explanation of how something can come from nothing and you are home free.

Would the mere assertion that an entity that has existed eternally is able to create stuff into being count as "rational explanation" by your standards?

 

[Elioenai26]

Would the mere assertion that an entity that has existed eternally is able to create stuff into being count as "rational explanation" by your standards?

Very rational. More rational than asserting that something can come from nothing; which is what must be ultimately accepted if one holds to the naturalistic explanation of the universe.

 

[Eudaimonist]

More rational than asserting that something can come from nothing; which is what must be ultimately accepted if one holds to the naturalistic explanation of the universe.

No, that need not be accepted. I don't believe that, and I don't recall any atheist in my experience arguing for that view.

Do you believe that God came from nothing?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[quatona]

Very rational. More rational than asserting that something can come from nothing; which is what must be ultimately accepted if one holds to the naturalistic explanation of the universe.

So "the universe has existed eternally" would count as a rational explanation, in your book?

 

[Elioenai26]

So "the universe has existed eternally" would count as a rational explanation, in your book?

No. It is irrational.

 

[Elioenai26]

No, that need not be accepted. I don't believe that, and I don't recall any atheist in my experience arguing for that view.

Do you believe that God came from nothing?


eudaimonia,

Mark

Coming implies a beginning. Two of God's nonmoral attributes are: His aseity which simply means: not caused by another, and His necessity. Aseity and necessity are kindred attributes. Aseity has to do with as I mentioned earlier His existence, and necessity has to do with the impossibility of His nonexistence.

 

[createdtoworship]

How is that evidence for design?

Let me ask you this. Perhaps you've heard this one.

You are walking along a beach, and you happen across a working clock, which you pick up and examine. You ask yourself: was this clock designed? You decide that it almost certainly was, or how else could it be there? Could sand just spontaneously form into a clock?

So, you put the clock down, and notice it scurry away on little legs towards yet another clock. It mates with that clock...

The moral of the story is: it makes a great deal of difference to any issue of assembly just what sort of entity one is talking about. If it involves anything like replicating strands of DNA, then there might be a process of assembly that is not in any way like an airplane falling together.


eudaimonia,

Mark

what? You lost me when you said one watch mated with another.

 

[createdtoworship]

No, your employer likely did.

Ultimately, the government and mint provided the money

actually a friend you owns Jesusislord.com did.

so God put it on His heart to give me some Bibles, and He did.

 

[createdtoworship]

What exactly are the odds of each event happening? I'd love to see your calculations of the probabilities of both events so we can double-check your work.

there is a book

called "science speaks" by peter stoner I believe that has the statistics of 30 prophecies coming true, then He does 300 I think.

He says it is as likely as filling texas 2 feet deep in silver dollars and picking one.

If I remember accurately

 

[createdtoworship]

Why is god not responsible, since in your opinion we can trace the chain of causality all the way back to her? Seems that humans are just another in the long string of causes tracing all the way back to the alleged creation of the universe by this all-powerful agent so we're no more responsible than the laws of physics. Pretending otherwise is just special pleading - it shows you're being awfully selective is what you'll accept as a cause or not.

God didn't make you do it, you have a free will. God allowed it, but didn't make it happen.