Atheism (2)

[Skavau]

I said I can't say otherwise, thats not the same thing as believing in them btw.

Precisely.

So I can't disprove God. Doesn't mean I believe in God. You are taking the same position on leprechauns as atheists do with God.

 

[Dave Ellis]

never said that,

that is a fallacy known as poisoning the well.....let me address it for you....


Poisoning the well (or attempting to poison the well) is a rhetorical device where adverse information about a target is pre-emptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing everything that the target person is about to say. Poisoning the well can be a special case of argumentum ad hominem, and the term was first used with this sense by John Henry Newman in his work Apologia Pro Vita Sua (1864).[1] The origin of the term lies in well poisoning, an ancient wartime practice of pouring poison into sources of fresh water before an invading army in order to diminish the invading army's strength.

wikipedia

The funny thing is you are committing the exact same fallacy against us, as well as trying to shift the burden of proof.

How is it you don't see that?

 

[Dave Ellis]

never did that, I asked for the definition of atheism, then asked for proof. Thats all it's been for like 25 pages now.

If you listened, you would understand that our position requires no proof. As you are making the positive assertion (God Exists), If you fail to meet your burden of proof, we hold a justified position in rejecting your claim.

If I claim there's a colony of Donkeys living on Mars that are planning an invasion to conquer earth... then provide no evidence for my claim, you do not have to prove anything to justifiably reject my claim.

We do not have to provide proof to reject your God claim, as you have not proven it to be true in the first place.

 

[Dave Ellis]

you are the ones poisoning the well stating I believe in leprechauns. I never said that. I said "how do you know there isn't any leprachauns". I also stated that "I can't say otherwise" meaning I can't say one way or another in leprachauns exist. Same way for God.

And that's exactly what we've been saying to you in regards to your God claim, and you have ignored it over and over again.

You can't say for sure if Leprechauns exist, however you do not hold a belief that Leprechauns do exist. That is EXACTLY the Atheist position towards God.

We can't say for sure if God exists, however we don't hold a belief that he does. Therefore we are Atheists.

 

[Dave Ellis]

I said I can't say otherwise, thats not the same thing as believing in them btw.

EXACTLY!

That is the Atheist position towards God.

Hopefully this serves as an eye-opener.... because to date I'm not sure you actually understood where Atheists are coming from.

You have shown you are capable of understanding the position, as you have made it here. Just rephrase that argument so it applies to God instead of Leprechauns and you can understand Atheism.

 

[Dave Ellis]

either way, we can't tell. So athiests really have no basis for their views in the same way thiests don't. You see?

That's not applicable to the argument.

This argument is a binary one, you can hold two possible positions.

1) You have a positive belief God Exists. (Theist position)
2) You do not have a positive belief God Exists. (Atheist position)

If we can't tell, then you do not have a positive belief that God exists.

That's not to say he doesn't exist, but that is irrelevant. What we're talking about is belief (or lack of belief), not assertion.

 

[createdtoworship]

EXACTLY!

That is the Atheist position towards God.

Hopefully this serves as an eye-opener.... because to date I'm not sure you actually understood where Atheists are coming from.

You have shown you are capable of understanding the position, as you have made it here. Just rephrase that argument so it applies to God instead of Leprechauns and you can understand Atheism.

huh?

 

[createdtoworship]

And that's exactly what we've been saying to you in regards to your God claim, and you have ignored it over and over again.

You can't say for sure if Leprechauns exist, however you do not hold a belief that Leprechauns do exist. That is EXACTLY the Atheist position towards God.

We can't say for sure if God exists, however we don't hold a belief that he does. Therefore we are Atheists.

I never stated leprechauns existed?

 

[createdtoworship]

That's not applicable to the argument.

This argument is a binary one, you can hold two possible positions.

1) You have a positive belief God Exists. (Theist position)
2) You do not have a positive belief God Exists. (Atheist position)

If we can't tell, then you do not have a positive belief that God exists.

That's not to say he doesn't exist, but that is irrelevant. What we're talking about is belief (or lack of belief), not assertion.

both don't have evidence (well at least I haven't provided any for theism- doesn't mean it doesn't exist)

 

[Dave Ellis]

both don't have evidence (well at least I haven't provided any for theism- doesn't mean it doesn't exist)

Correct.

However, without that evidence, making a positive assertion that they do exist is unjustified.

Therefore the honest thing to do is reserve judgement.

If you reserve judgement, then you do not hold a positive belief in the existence of said being.

If you do not hold a positive belief in God, you are an Atheist.

 

[createdtoworship]

Correct.

However, without that evidence, making a positive assertion that they do exist is unjustified.

Therefore the honest thing to do is reserve judgement.

If you reserve judgement, then you do not hold a positive belief in the existence of said being.

If you do not hold a positive belief in God, you are an Atheist.

Oh I hold a positive belief in theism, but I was just curious as to the definition of athiesm. Because atheism can't seem to get any evidence as to it's belief.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Oh I hold a positive belief in theism, but I was just curious as to the definition of athiesm. Because atheism can't seem to get any evidence as to it's belief.

.

 

[Skavau]

Oh I hold a positive belief in theism, but I was just curious as to the definition of athiesm. Because atheism can't seem to get any evidence as to it's belief.

Atheism isn't a belief. This has been explained to you constantly. Atheism isn't an argument for there being no God. Atheism is a descriptive term that refers to people who do not affirm the existence of a God(s).

 

[Crusader05]

Oh I hold a positive belief in theism, but I was just curious as to the definition of athiesm. Because atheism can't seem to get any evidence as to it's belief.

But atheism isn't a belief, it's a non-belief! Kinda like not believing in leprechauns.

 

[createdtoworship]

But atheism isn't a belief, it's a non-belief! Kinda like not believing in leprechauns.

you "believe" there is no evidence for God right?

then it's a belief.

 

[Gadarene]

you "believe" there is no evidence for God right?

then it's a belief.

That still isn't a refutation of the definition of atheism. Atheism is a lack of belief in a god or gods.

Again - if you want to change our minds on this, give justification for why we should believe in only your god without evidence. Or give positive evidence for the existence of a god.

You know, the positive assertion you made earlier, and for which the burden of proof is on you.

 

[Dave Ellis]

you "believe" there is no evidence for God right?

then it's a belief.

No

We have not been presented with evidence for a God.

We don't know if evidence for God exists or not. However if it does exist, until we see it we can not justifiably claim God exists.

Kinda like your stance on Leprechauns. You don't know if evidence exists or not, however since you haven't seen any, you don't hold a positive belief in the existence of Leprechauns.

 

[quatona]

I said I can't say otherwise, thats not the same thing as believing in them btw.

How does "I can´t say leprechauns don´t exist" reflect in your life, practically (as opposed to someone who doesn´t believe they exist)?
How does the possibility that leprechauns may exist affect your life?
What would you do differently if you were convinced they don´t exist?

 

[quatona]

you "believe" there is no evidence for God right?

No. It´s just that it has yet to be presented to me.
You are invited to present it.

 

[createdtoworship]

No. It´s just that it has yet to be presented to me.
You are invited to present it.

but no evidence has been given to the contrary either.