The best evidence for Creationism

[CaliforniaSun]

No he hasn't unless you never pray and therefore you are batting 0 for 0.

Technically, he's right, as Christians are instructed by their leaders that their god always answers prayers with a yes, no, or not yet.

 

[HoopsMcCaan]

Technically, he's right, as Christians are instructed by their leaders that their god always answers prayers with a yes, no, or not yet.

Word 'em up, son, although the only leader I listen to on this matter is God, and due to his answering my prayers with "yes" so often puts me at a much better record than an 0 for 0 type count.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

Word 'em up, son, although the only leader I listen to on this matter is God, and due to his answering my prayers with "yes" so often puts me at a much better record than an 0 for 0 type count.

Always amazes me that people think God answers their prayers when he so obviously ignores so many others. One can only imagine the self centred thinking going on.

 

[HoopsMcCaan]

Always amazes me that people think God answers their prayers when he so obviously ignores so many others. One can only imagine the self centred thinking going on.

Hopefully that one is also imagining the blatant generalization and assumption going on. Who said God ignores others? Who said all my prayers were for me? Keep praying, Mr Strawberry, you'll get there.

PS, good to hear you're always amazed. Many a prayer being answered apparently! Praise the Lord!

 

[Mr Strawberry]

Hopefully that one is also imagining the blatant generalization and assumption going on. Who said God ignores others? Who said all my prayers were for me? Keep praying, Mr Strawberry, you'll get there.

PS, good to hear you're always amazed. Many a prayer being answered apparently! Praise the Lord!

Well, let's start with the 25,000 people who will die of starvation today. How are their prayers doing?

Poverty.com - Hunger and World Poverty

 

[HoopsMcCaan]

Well, let's start with the 25,000 people who will die of starvation today. How are their prayers doing?

Oh you're one of those. Bad things happen. Must not be a God. I agree, many many many prayers don't go the way of the one praying. Counting lots of my own, but not once in my post did I say every prayer is always answered all the time, Mr. Strassumption, but speaking on behalf of myself, what I've lived and seen cannot be unlived or unseen because of some stats. I wish God answered every single one of my prayers, cause we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. You'd be a believer. But let the big man do his job. I'm sure it's a lot harder than mine and yours put together!!!! I added three more exclamation points for emphasis.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

Oh you're one of those. Bad things happen. Must not be a God. I agree, many many many prayers don't go the way of the one praying. Counting lots of my own, but not once in my post did I say every prayer is always answered all the time, Mr. Strassumption, but speaking on behalf of myself, what I've lived and seen cannot be unlived or unseen because of some stats. I wish God answered every single one of my prayers, cause we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. You'd be a believer. But let the big man do his job. I'm sure it's a lot harder than mine and yours put together!!!! I added three more exclamation points for emphasis.

So in other words you have no explanation as to why God you describe is so capricious. Of course the obvious answer is that there is no one there listening and that you are just doing some creative interpretation of events in your own life. This does of course require viewing the world in a rather narrow way, otherwise the blatant unfairness of selective intervention would destroy the whole illusion.

 

[HoopsMcCaan]

So in other words you have no explanation as to why God you describe is so capricious. Of course the obvious answer is that there is no one there listening and that you are just doing some creative interpretation of events in your own life. This does of course require viewing the world in a rather narrow way, otherwise the blatant unfairness of selective intervention would destroy the whole illusion.

Why on earth would I, or anyone, ever proclaim to have the knowledge of why God does what he does? To assume you're equipped with such a mind is an extraordinary arrogance on your part. You're also forgetting, that in my belief system, death is not the worst thing, not the end all be all. Not to sound morbid, and God willing I'll live a long full life, but I can't wait to get to the other side. Most of those 25,000 are there now, feeling no pain, no suffering, no fear. Just joy, love and warmth, and perhaps some flying. I've always wondered if we get to fly.

As far as misinterpreting my experiences... nothing I haven't heard before, lad. And by all means, you go ahead and believe that. I'll continue on with my beliefs.

And I'm surprised you didn't call me out for assuming you were an unbeliever, since I called you Mr. Strassumption, but turns out I was right.

Hey man, gonna make some dinner, but God Bless you, brother. I'll be back later to carry on.

 

[CaliforniaSun]

Why on earth would I, or anyone, ever proclaim to have the knowledge of why God does what he does? To assume you're equipped with such a mind is an extraordinary arrogance on your part. You're also forgetting, that in my belief system, death is not the worst thing, not the end all be all. Not to sound morbid, and God willing I'll live a long full life, but I can't wait to get to the other side. Most of those 25,000 are there now, feeling no pain, no suffering, no fear. Just joy, love and warmth, and perhaps some flying. I've always wondered if we get to fly.

As far as misinterpreting my experiences... nothing I haven't heard before, lad. And by all means, you go ahead and believe that. I'll continue on with my beliefs.

And I'm surprised you didn't call me out for assuming you were an unbeliever, since I called you Mr. Strassumption, but turns out I was right.

Hey man, gonna make some dinner, but God Bless you, brother. I'll be back later to carry on.

Base rate fallacy.

 

[NGC 6712]

Word 'em up, son, although the only leader I listen to on this matter is God, and due to his answering my prayers with "yes" so often puts me at a much better record than an 0 for 0 type count.

You claimed they are always answered - which I took it to mean a positive result. If that is your claim then you either pray not at all or you are not being truthful. Do not tell me everything you have ever prayed for has come to fruition in the manner you wanted it to - because I do not believe you or anybody who makes that claim.

 

[HoopsMcCaan]

You claimed they are always answered - which I took it to mean a positive result. If that is your claim then you either pray not at all or you are not being truthful. Do not tell me everything you have ever prayed for has come to fruition in the manner you wanted it to - because I do not believe you or anybody who makes that claim.

Heavens no! Read my above posts. Most of my prayers don't go my way, but if I make 3000 prayers in a year and 20 come to fruition as I have prayed them to, that's a very good result. And, in my case, they're not "oh please God, let me find a parking spot" type prayer. They're pretty heavy, if I do say so myself.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

Why on earth would I, or anyone, ever proclaim to have the knowledge of why God does what he does? To assume you're equipped with such a mind is an extraordinary arrogance on your part. You're also forgetting, that in my belief system, death is not the worst thing, not the end all be all. Not to sound morbid, and God willing I'll live a long full life, but I can't wait to get to the other side. Most of those 25,000 are there now, feeling no pain, no suffering, no fear. Just joy, love and warmth, and perhaps some flying. I've always wondered if we get to fly.

As far as misinterpreting my experiences... nothing I haven't heard before, lad. And by all means, you go ahead and believe that. I'll continue on with my beliefs.

And I'm surprised you didn't call me out for assuming you were an unbeliever, since I called you Mr. Strassumption, but turns out I was right.

Hey man, gonna make some dinner, but God Bless you, brother. I'll be back later to carry on.

I have an atheist icon under my name, which as you are new you perhaps didn't recognise.

So now you are presenting a view of God allowing 25,000 people to die of starvation a day as "not the worst thing". Death being something to look forward to, obviously. This does nothing to address the pain and suffering they endure before they die. Starving to death isn't nice and quick like being hit by a bus, but then nor are most of the diseases that kill millions each year. I assume you're not going to claim that suffering is good for you or any of that rot I hope. Let's see, how many people in the world are suffering the agonies of a disease that will kill them because they have no access to modern medicine. Strangely these people don't have their prayers answered. They just suffer and then die. Diarrhea, AIDS, malaria, these claim millions of victims each year. Meanwhile you are quite content to believe that God has stepped in to fix something in your life while He ignores all of them. What sort of viewpoint would you call that?

But you claim that even questioning this bizarre policy of your God's is arrogant. Well that's a nice get out clause to avoid having to think about whether what you believe actually makes any sense or not. Tell me, can you think of a single prayer you believe God has answered for you that you wouldn't immediately swap this minute with a child needlessly dying of hunger? Can you honestly make that claim? If you can't then you have to wonder why this omnipotent God thought you were more deserving. Do you think your God was right? Or do you think perhaps He got His priorities wrong?

 

[HoopsMcCaan]

I have an atheist icon under my name, which as you are new you perhaps didn't recognise.

So now you are presenting a view of God allowing 25,000 people to die of starvation a day as "not the worst thing". Death being something to look forward to obviously. This does nothing to address the pain and suffering they endure before they die. Starving to death isn't nice and quick like being hit by a bus, but then nor are most of the diseases that kill millions each year. I assume you're not going to claim that suffering is good for you or any of that rot I hope. Let's see, how many people in the world are suffering the agonies of a disease that will kill them because they have no access to modern medicine. Strangely these people don;t have their prayers answered. They just suffer and then die. Diarrhea, AIDS, malaria, these claim millions of victims each year. Meanwhile you are quite content to believe that God has stepped in to fix something in your life while He ignores all of them. What sort of viewpoint would you call that?

But you claim that even questioning this bizarre policy of your God's is arrogant. Well that's a nice get out clause to avoid having to think about whether what you believe actually makes any sense or not. Tell me, can you think of a single prayer you believe God has answered for you that you wouldn't immediately swap this minute with a child needlessly dying of hunger? Can you honestly make that claim? If you can't then you have to wonder why this omnipotent God thought you were more deserving. Do you think your God was right? Or do you think perhaps He got His priorities wrong?

Nope, didnt notice it, and beside I was just joshin with ya. I noticed there wasn't much joshin on this forum, so I thought I'd bring some to lighten it up a bit. Must be cause I'm brand spankin new. Let me know if there's no joshin allowed.

Oh, Mr Strassumption....all the points you made are very very good, but, no, only a complete buffoon would say that suffering is a good thing. I cannot answer your very good questions and concerns because I don't have those answers. Yes, it absolutely seems unfair, and yes those types of statistics bother the ever loving hell out of me. I pray for the sick and hungry more than I pray for myself, yet they keep suffering and keep dying. It's quite sad. I'm sorry that these stats have turned you away from God though, which is where the arrogance comes in. Questioning is one thing, but saying you know better than Him about what should be done is quite another.

The few prayers about myself that were answered, sure I'd trade those in to save a few lives. However, that wasn't God's will. I can't tell you if He answering my prayers was a higher priority than others. I don't have those answers. I can't say if I'm more deserving. I. Don't. Have. Those. Answers. I do believe that He is right in every decision he makes.

Hey man, if you're right, and there is no one up there, then I'll buy you a beer when we're both trees...or whatever.

Until then, God Bless you and the others on this forum!

 

[NailsII]

I pray for the sick and hungry more than I pray for myself, yet they keep suffering and keep dying. It's quite sad. I'm sorry that these stats have turned you away from God though, which is where the arrogance comes in. Questioning is one thing, but saying you know better than Him about what should be done is quite another.

Which is noble; but there are some people who have realised that prayer is not enough, and they send aid to help others less fortunate.
Personally I don't think it is the stats that puts people off god, although the sheer scale of depravation on this planet is mind boggling - and not believing in god doesn't make you arrogant.

Just think for a second as to what you can do better than god did.
I had a chat at work a few weeks ago with a Christian and we managed to re-write the ten commandments in to what we thought was a better, fairer set of laws than those in the bible (both sets of ten, that is) - in less than half an hour.

You might also want to consider Jesus' position a little.
Here is the son of the creator of literally all that is, and all that will be.
He comes to earth to learn about humans (despite his father being omnipotent and omnicient), seeing their chosen people (yes, he/they has favourites) being oppressed by a better organised, more civilised, technologically advanced nation.
So how does god/Jesus respond?
His people are living in fear, oppressed and abused by the Romans, disease is rife, mortality rates are high (particularly in children), literacy is low. These are poor people and they are suffering.
So he turns water into wine (very good wine by all acounts), feeds 9,000 people in two seperate events, denounces violence (which was just as well, as the Jews were never going to overthrow the Romans by force)
and basically tells people to pray more, have faith and to wallow in their poverty until they die and go to a better place.
Then just to prove it all makes sense, he heals a few people and brings a couple back from the dead.
Nothing to help them out of poverty, nothing to help them reduce disease or infection, nothing to educate them about anything other than words - nice words in fact, like the sermon on the mount. Nice, but hollow.
Nothing to end slavery, ownership of women, beating of children, democracy or freedom, or anything at all to improve human existance really, other than some nice notions such as turn the other cheek and treat others etc - nothing really magical that hadn't been written down earlier in other cultures.
To suggest that this response is a little inadequate is not arrogant, in my opinion.

Just think about it sometime, and compare it with what you might expect if Jesus was a normal human being, and his story was embelished somewhat by some well-meaning and over-zealous followers.
~Just think~

 

[NailsII]

NailsII,

Just plain old Nails will do, the 'II' was onlt because someone else had used my favourite nickname before me....

The title of your post is ironic unless you were trying to one up SavedByChrist94 because your post had exactly zero facts. Unless you count that the earth revolves around the sun, which by you noting, proves just what a scientific genius you are. And because "You're too dumb to get it" is the universal outcry of the evolutionist, please explain through biology what SavedByChrist94 just isn't understanding about evolution.

Red it again, it contained more than one fact.
But alas, we were dealing with logic, as anyone who knows creation-evolution debates will tell you that facts are either irrelevant or open to interpretation. But thanks for your input, I will make amends in this post hopefully.
Hey, did you know that 2+2=4?
No really - that's a fact.

"No evidence for a creator" is quite comical to me. I can name approximately 18 trillion evidences for Him, but none of them are big words, they're easily explained, and don't need website links to back them up, which is why you dismiss them because the layman can easily understand them. Pretty ironic that you have to be super duper smart, as you proclaim to be, to ignore God's creation.

Glad I made you chuckle, but in reality that is a fact - because, if there was evidence for a creation event as described in the bible, then there wouldn't be that many atheists.
The few would just be student-teenager types who are mad at god and want to be rebellious, right?
Plus of course, if there really was 18 trillion bits of evidence for a god, the bible wouldn't need to harp on about faith being a virtue, would it.
Also, I never claimed to be smart - so do we need to tally the facts in my posts with the misrepresentations in yours?

But you're so incredibly smart and gifted, you know exactly how God would think, if there were one. I'll give you a hint, your brain is human, fallible and not even remotely close to all knowing. That fact that, according to evolutionists, we evolved from a primordial soup indicates that we were destined to become super geniuses! Why WOULDN'T we know all the ins and outs of the universe with our one off monkey brains?

Our brains are pretty much as limited as most people would expect given that we evolved from apes on the savannah.
Note with interest how often genius is correlated with madness or mental illness, psychiatric disorders and such.
This may well be due to the pattern-seeking nature of our brains.
A genius can see a pattern where no one else can, a madman sees patterns everywhere.

God most certainly exists. I pray that one day you will be shown that. If you seek God, you will find Him. Most unbelievers want nothing to do with God, and therefore seek the evidences they desire so they can rest easy. Through my life, and doubts, and hopes and fears, I was given proof by God himself that He's real, He's watching, and one day, sooner or later, you will find that out.

I have found no such proof - hence I describe myself as atheist.
I did seek, but I must have been looking in the wrong place.
I tried my heart, my soul (what a futile search that was - turns out I don't even have a soul) the bible and even church.
It was like playing hide and seek with a neutrino.

God Bless you, NailsII. You're in my prayers tonight. Fortunately, my God answers prayers. Always has.

Thanks for the blessing, but please don't pray for me.
Prayer seems to have a negative effect on people in controlled experiments, and I don't want to take that risk thank you.
There are plenty more people less fortunate than me who need your prayers - the families of the 25,000 every day for a start.

Peace

Now that really would be nice.

 

[USincognito]

"evolution" is a faith. the chances of it happening are impossible. the proof? since the character limit doesn't allow me to copy and paste the whole thing, on mathematics of evolution .com on chapter 15 and icr.org article entitled, The Mathematical Impossibility Of Evolution

Any time there is an appeal to math or philosphy or any other tangental subject to the evidence and the science it's likely to be a straw man. I checked out this page:
The Mathematical Impossibility Of Evolution
and note very little by way of concrete evidence, and a simple appeal to vagueness in calculations done 40 years ago.

But let us give the evolutionist the benefit of every consideration. Assume that, at each mutational step, there is equally as much chance for it to be good as bad. Thus, the probability for the success of each mutation is assumed to be one out of two, or one-half. Elementary statistical theory shows that the probability of 200 successive mutations being successful is then (½)200, or one chance out of 1060. The number 1060, if written out, would be "one" followed by sixty "zeros." In other words, the chance that a 200-component organism could be formed by mutation and natural selection is less than one chance out of a trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion! Lest anyone think that a 200-part system is unreasonably complex, it should be noted that even a one-celled plant or animal may have millions of molecular "parts."​

Wow. Just wow...

These supposed "mathematical disproofs" mean nothing. We have looked at individual genes and even entire genomes and seen that the mutations have occured, and that they occur in the same places and ways predicted by morphological phylogenies.

Because again, no random act could've created this earth {snip}

Whoops. Nebular hypothesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

...when it is logically and mathematically impossible for "evolution" to have occurred, and you say otherwise, then that is just relying on faith and not fact.

Oh brother. Would you care to explain how evolution is "logically impossible"?

That is why I am a Young Earth Creationist, God creating the earth the way he says in The Bible makes the most logical, possible and scientific sense.

Except that science "says" the earth is ~4.5 byo, not ~6,000 yo; that life on earth has existed since ~3.5 bya, not ~6,000 ya; that life has evolved over the course of those ~3.5 billion years, not created all at once ~6,000 years ago; and there was no world-wide flood ~4,000 ya reducing the population of humanity down to 8 and a small percentage of animals down to 2 (or 14).

No, irreducible complexity shows all or nothing. an accident statistically cannot make something so complex and this is common sense.

Speaking of sense, this response lacks it. There's nothing "accidental" in evolution. The mutations are random, but the selective pressures are not in the same way that rainfall is random, but the flow of rivers is not - however, both processes are explained via natural means. And what does IC "shows all or nothing" mean? Are you alluding to the system must be as we observe it now or it cannot work at all?

"evolution" is like saying a pencil can magically scribble itself on a paper until it forms a proper sentence {snip}

Would that sentence be "This is a strawman argument"?

Me sacrificing myself for a loved one, for love doesn't have anything at all to do with survival of fittest. {snip}

Survival of the fittest is not what you seem to think it is. Nature was known to be pretty brutal long before Darwin set foot upon the Beagle. "Fittest" can mean many things including fastest so one can run away (like a gazelle), thickest armor (like an oyster), or most successfully reproductive (like a grass that spreads to overtake a field). "Survival" doesn't just apply to the inividual either, it can apply to genes and in the case of sacrificing oneself for a loved one, one is ensuring that the genes of the population (or your own if the loved one is a child) continue.

All the other references you make to "survival of the fittest" subsequent to the paragraph I've truncated and responded too suffer from the same fallacious reasoning. Especially this one.

That was an example. the "evolution" theory is that the fit survive and "evolve" and that that the weak die off. so if evolution happened there would be no problem with killing or raping to "evolve" or get rid of 'weak'. but no there is a problem with killing and raping, killing IS wrong, rape IS wrong. "evolution" doesn't explain why at the heart rape, killing and violence are wrong and sickening, it just comes up with illogical excuses.

Sorry but "evolution" doesn't have any logical explanation on morality, none. doesn't explain where morals come from, doesn't explain why there are objective morals. they only assume that morals aren't objective or created for survival (which they are not as I explained)

Really? It's funny you appeal to "logic" when in the last sentence you poison the well. And apparently, there's enough study on the subject for one author to write an entire book (parts of which you can read on Google Books - The Evolution of Morality

 

[driewerf]

Nixon was impeached eventually, and lived the rest of his days ignominiously. The god described in the bible makes Nixon look like a saint.

P.S. I bend my knee for no one. I have rights granted to me by the U.S. constitution by virtue of my birth, and that is a right I shall never give up.

You can bend your knee to whomever you choose.

Just to be annoying:
your constitutional rights are only garanteed in the US. The moment you enter another country you will have to obey the laws of that country.

 

[driewerf]

"No evidence for a creator" is quite comical to me. I can name approximately 18 trillion evidences for Him,

Really? really really really?


Then I'm waiting for number one...

 

[driewerf]

posted, the 10th of june 06:53 AM

I agree, many many many prayers don't go the way of the one praying. Counting lots of my own, but not once in my post did I say every prayer is always answered all the time,

posted the 10th of june 06:05 AM

the only leader I listen to on this matter is God, and due to his answering my prayers with "yes" so often puts me at a much better record than an 0 for 0 type count.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Really? really really really?


Then I'm waiting for number one...

It's going to be something inane like the 18 trillion organisms that live on Earth...