what messianic prophecies where not fulfilled by jesus?

[LoAmmi]

Again, have you looked at eastern Jewish sources? But I wouldn't suggest 25% of the Jews became Christian. Christianity grew at the rate of only about 4% a year until Constantine converted, and that included Gentiles.

Which eastern Jewish sources would you recommend?

 

[LoAmmi]

No, no, no. That's the number of Jews there are today!

Yes, that's right. I was getting my numbers confused.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Dear Jane,

Keep in mind that aside from Luke/Acts all of the books of the NT were written by Jews

Dear Susan,

I know this can grow into a colossal thread derail, but do you actually believe in the traditional attributions of authorship?

It's pretty obvious that the synoptic gospels are not independent texts, and I doubt that any of them was written by the person traditionally associated with them.
(Well, the gospel of "Mark" may be an original text, but even that one was most likely written after the rise of Paul, and definitely not by John Mark the confidante of Peter.

How do I know that? Well, for starters, "Mark" makes some serious mistakes with regards to Palestinian geography:

Mark 7:31
Then he [Jesus] return from the region of Tyre, and went through Sidon to the Sea of Galilee.

Sidon is North of Tyre, the Sea of Galilee to the Southeast. And while it's possible that he's merely describing a detour in this case (akin to "going from New York to Washington D.C. by way of Boston), there's also this:

In Mark 5, Jesus crosses Lake Galilee and visits Gerasa, where he drives a horde of demons into a herd of pigs (implausibly numbering no less than 2,000 animals). These pigs then rush to the lake and drown themselves.

Here's the thing, though: Gerasa does not and did not lie on the shore of the lake. It's more than 30 miles (or fifty kilometers) from that city to the Sea of Galilee.

That's BASIC geography, and certainly something that any native of that land would be aware of.

But maybe he was a diasporic Jew, you say? Well, he didn't know Palestinian custom too well, either:

Mark 10:11-12
He [Jesus] answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."

This suggests that women were allowed to divorce their husbands. They were not, and any Jew should know that.

Once more into the breach:

Mark 7:3-4
For the Pharisees and all the Jews, do not eat unless they thoroughly wash their hands, thus observing the tradition of their elders; and they do not eat anything from the market unless they wash it; and there are also many other traditions that they observe, the washing of cups, pots, and bronze kettles.

Evidence in the Talmud shows that this ritual cleansing was ONLY obligatory for priests - and while some Pharisees might have engaged in this ritual voluntarily, this was certainly not true of "all the Jews" at the time.

In short: whoever "Mark" was, he was not a Jew, and not an inhabitant of Palestine.

 

[smaneck]

Which eastern Jewish sources would you recommend?

There was an excellent article on this subject in the Cambridge History of Iran written by a famous Jewish scholar whose name escapes me right now and the article is not be found in the more recent edition. In the fourth century there were a lot of vigorous debates between Jews and Christians in Mesopotamia, but it appears as those the Jewish side of this polemic did not survive. The book on 4th century debates is: Gorgias Press - Koltun-Fromm, Naomi. Jewish-Christian Conversation in Fourth-Century Persian Mesopotamia

I also found references to the fact that the Nestorians who brought Christianity to China were Jewish.

 

[BruceDLimber]

The 'ulama or Muslim clergy gets blamed for all persecution against Baha'is whereas the role played by the state tends to be downplayed.

That may well have been the case in the past, but more recently Iran itself has come in for great blame--hence the many nations currently condemning Iran for these persecutions!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[smaneck]

That may well have been the case in the past, but more recently Iran itself has come in for great blame--hence the many nations currently condemning Iran for these persecutions!

Well, today there is no distinction between the clergy and the state, but this wasn't the case in the 19th century.

 

[dfw69]

Dear Susan,

I know this can grow into a colossal thread derail, but do you actually believe in the traditional attributions of authorship?

It's pretty obvious that the synoptic gospels are not independent texts, and I doubt that any of them was written by the person traditionally associated with them.
(Well, the gospel of "Mark" may be an original text, but even that one was most likely written after the rise of Paul, and definitely not by John Mark the confidante of Peter.

How do I know that? Well, for starters, "Mark" makes some serious mistakes with regards to Palestinian geography:

Mark 7:31
Then he [Jesus] return from the region of Tyre, and went through Sidon to the Sea of Galilee.

Sidon is North of Tyre, the Sea of Galilee to the Southeast. And while it's possible that he's merely describing a detour in this case (akin to "going from New York to Washington D.C. by way of Boston), there's also this:

In Mark 5, Jesus crosses Lake Galilee and visits Gerasa, where he drives a horde of demons into a herd of pigs (implausibly numbering no less than 2,000 animals). These pigs then rush to the lake and drown themselves.

Here's the thing, though: Gerasa does not and did not lie on the shore of the lake. It's more than 30 miles (or fifty kilometers) from that city to the Sea of Galilee.

That's BASIC geography, and certainly something that any native of that land would be aware of.

But maybe he was a diasporic Jew, you say? Well, he didn't know Palestinian custom too well, either:

Mark 10:11-12
He [Jesus] answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."

This suggests that women were allowed to divorce their husbands. They were not, and any Jew should know that.

Once more into the breach:

Mark 7:3-4
For the Pharisees and all the Jews, do not eat unless they thoroughly wash their hands, thus observing the tradition of their elders; and they do not eat anything from the market unless they wash it; and there are also many other traditions that they observe, the washing of cups, pots, and bronze kettles.

Evidence in the Talmud shows that this ritual cleansing was ONLY obligatory for priests - and while some Pharisees might have engaged in this ritual voluntarily, this was certainly not true of "all the Jews" at the time.

In short: whoever "Mark" was, he was not a Jew, and not an inhabitant of Palestine.

i believe the new testament account....its amazing all the contradictions ive learned on this forum.....and i would have not known because of not searching them out for myself.....several things though.....i believe the gospels were written by Jews to witness to jews....you would think that the witness would be pretty acurate to convince a jew....after all.... do you know how hard it is to convert a learnered Jew?....(retorical).....anyway....the gospels names may have been changed....and basically all the new testament have contradictions....foolish ones... that should be corrected long ago...by men who knew and understood .....yet they remain to this day....only suggest to me that the good seed was tainted...tweeked...so that the new testament would be seen as false doctrine and the men who preach it seen as false witnesses....yep

 

[LoAmmi]

i believe the new testament account....its amazing all the contradictions ive learned on this forum.....and i would have not known because of not searching them out for myself.....several things though.....i believe the gospels were written by Jews to witness to jews....you would think that the witness would be pretty acurate to convince a jew....after all.... do you know how hard it is to convert a learnered Jew?....(retorical).....anyway....the gospels names may have been changed....and basically all the new testament have contradictions....foolish ones... that should be corrected long ago...by men who knew and understood .....yet they remain to this day....only suggest to me that the good seed was tainted...tweeked...so that the new testament would be seen as false doctrine and the men who preach it seen as false witnesses....yep

That sets up a situation where the New Testament cannot be trusted then. If you are saying that it has been compromised, then how can we trust other parts? How about if the beginning of John was changed and all the parts that could possibly point to Jesus being divine are additions? Could that mean that worshiping Jesus would be wrong?

What criteria do you use to determine which parts are clean and which have been dirtied?

 

[dfw69]

That sets up a situation where the New Testament cannot be trusted then. If you are saying that it has been compromised, then how can we trust other parts? How about if the beginning of John was changed and all the parts that could possibly point to Jesus being divine are additions? Could that mean that worshiping Jesus would be wrong?

What criteria do you use to determine which parts are clean and which have been dirtied?

thats a good question.....i think the account of jesus being divine was left alone....it discredit jesus in the eyes of jews....how can he be god?....yet revelation reveals jesus as God ....the trinity account goes against judaism...so it was left alone.....thus i believe it to be true.....imo....

 

[LoAmmi]

thats a good question.....i think the account of jesus being divine was left alone....it discredit jesus in the eyes of jews....how can he be god?....yet revelation reveals jesus as God ....the trinity account goes against judaism...so it was left alone.....thus i believe it to be true.....imo....

Are you suggesting the only things changed were changed by Jews?

 

[dfw69]

Are you suggesting the only things changed were changed by Jews?

yes....im afraid so....to combat enemies of judaism....

 

[LoAmmi]

yes....im afraid so....to combat enemies of judaism....

and the Christians allowed Jews to do this... why?

 

[dfw69]

and the Christians allowed Jews to do this... why?

what do you mean?

 

[LoAmmi]

what do you mean?

The New Testament would have been the possession of Christians. In order for Jews to change it, they would have had to gain possession of it, and all copies. Why did the Christians allow this to happen?

 

[dfw69]

The New Testament would have been the possession of Christians. In order for Jews to change it, they would have had to gain possession of it, and all copies. Why did the Christians allow this to happen?

well i dont know how history took place.....but what can christians do?...they were being persecuted....most probably could not write if they had copies....i dont know how hard it would be to gain all copies.....its not like they had printing machines back them...know what i mean?

what i dont understand is...why not destroy all copies?....end the movement that way?....christianity would have died off... jesus said my words shall not perish....its a miracle they still exist

 

[LoAmmi]

well i dont know how history took place.....but what can christians do?...they were being persecuted....most probably could not write if they had copies....i dont know how hard it would be to gain all copies.....its not like they had printing machines back them...know what i mean?

what i dont understand is...why not destroy all copies?....end the movement that way?....christianity would have died off... jesus said my words shall not perish....

You have basically created your own plot hole here. If the Jews were interested in getting rid of the thing, AND had this amazing power to get every copy as well as all those people who would have the stories committed to memory and SOMEHOW change them just to discredit the movement, why would they have not used this immense power to destroy the movement? Because such power did not exist.

 

[dfw69]

You have basically created your own plot hole here. If the Jews were interested in getting rid of the thing, AND had this amazing power to get every copy as well as all those people who would have the stories committed to memory and SOMEHOW change them just to discredit the movement, why would they have not used this immense power to destroy the movement? Because such power did not exist.

lol...i know....beats me....maybe the jews drop the ball on this one....

 

[LoAmmi]

lol...i know....beats me....maybe the jews drop the ball on this one....

or maybe the things Jane pointed out were in the original text. Which seems more likely? Some sort of super Jewish power to change documents held sacred to a group of people, or the original documents having these things in them?

 

[dfw69]

or maybe the things Jane pointed out were in the original text. Which seems more likely? Some sort of super Jewish power to change documents held sacred to a group of people, or the original documents having these things in them?

honestly....i cant rule out the first....because its possible....or somehow possible....but its easy to say these original doctrines had these things in them...but that would make it false...right?.....a thing i strongly disagree with....i rather believe its tainted than truth...i know its foolish...but to them who believe its the power of God to salvation.....so.....something went down in the past that only God knows and will judge .....for he knows all things....

 

[LoAmmi]

honestly....i cant rule out the first....because its possible....or somehow possible....but its easy to say these original doctrines had these things in them...but that would make it false...right?.....a thing i strongly disagree with....i rather believe its tainted than truth...i know its foolish...but to them who believe its the power of God to salvation.....so.....something went down in the past that only God knows and will judge .....for he knows all things....

I just don't know why you would blame Jews for it though. A lot of your ideas seem to come back to the idea that Jews are evil/corrupting.