Different state past

[Elendur]

You have no prooof of the same state past that you claim. Objective and subjective are relative terms in practice of science.

Again you show ignorance of what proof means.

At least try to understand these terms:
Proof
Objective evidence
Subjective evidence

Objective and subjective are not relative terms, they are clearly defined.

 

[dad]

.. what proof means.

Science isn't about proof. That is one reason they can't prove a present state existed in the past. They are all about belief only. They bellieve in a present state and base models of the past and future on that. The evidence can be interpreted either way, and often best fits a DSP.

The observers who lived and left records agree with a different past. God also does. You are in a losing position that cannot prevail.

 

[Elendur]

Science isn't about proof. That is one reason they can't prove a present state existed in the past. They are all about belief only. They bellieve in a present state and base models of the past and future on that. The evidence can be interpreted either way, and often best fits a DSP.

The observers who lived and left records agree with a different past. God also does. You are in a losing position that cannot prevail.

I've lost count of how many times I've told you now. Of course science isn't about proof (except math, and that's under strictly controlled models).

You still don't understand the term proof.

And yes, evidence can be interpreted either way, but no, it doesn't fit DSP best.

 

[Tiberius]

What was it you thought the point was? Maybe we should rent a psychic to probe your mind?

The point was that somehow we have rock samples that radiodate to millions of years old. You've never been able to explain how this is possible. Every single time you've tried, you've used flawed science.

Legends of a flood abound.

And how can we possibly have so many different stories of a global flood if Noah and his family were the only survivors? There are NO accounts of a global flood that agree with the Bible's account.

Or what it says! So where does that leave it?

Science has a ton of support.

All science. You name it. I have never seen any science that opposes it.

Oh no, dad. Be specific. Pick some bit of science and explain in detail how it supports a DSP. You;ve never done this because you can't.

Where? Sample??

Any Cretacious rock will do, but there are lots of others.

Man's wisdom is foolishness to God.

Then he must be particularly unimpressed with your foolishness.

No such thing as dates from that just dreams. Do you think that that method dates stuff say 5000 years old?? No. It is ALL in fantasy land, and a gross misreading of where isotopes came from.

You;ve never provided a shred of evidence to support any of that. You must enjoy hearing yourself if you make these same claims over and over. But the claims grow old, dad. Let's see some evidence.

No. You look at how it is, and dream how it was based on that alone, while ignoring God and observers...on purpose no less.

Oh, dad, if your religion was so convincing, everyone on the planet would share your beliefs. Your religion is not as convincing as you believe.

Well, I think that demons have stars. So I suspect that a star may be more like the star of Bethlehem, than our sun. Remember, it guided men to a house!

Well, you THINK wrong.

Your real world doesn't exist in deep space.

Depends where you are looking from, doesn't it?

I agree. You can't. Cause I am right.

No you're not.

Man still has nothing like the wheels Ezekiel saw! -God's wheels. God's wisdom is high above man.

A very wise person was once heard to remark, "Ralph, Jesus did not have wheels." I saw it on TV. I'm sure the same applies to God.

No. You did no such thing. Nor will you.

Oh, I did. Your beliefs blinded you to it, but I did.

Right. So?

So, you said that the tennis balls cannot tell us anything about the past.

Right. Some meaning maybe how much water trickled down since the time of the tilt. If we observed the water falling a certain time, then we can know that a certain amount fell! Simple.

And yet now you say the tennis balls CAN tell us something about the past.

So which is it? You are saying to completely opposite things here dad!

Not is any way is that remotely close to a third cousin of the truth. We can know certain things about this state for as long as this state existed and we saw stuff. For example if we know that something decays into daughter material, at a certain rate, and we know this state existed for say, 4400 years, then we can say that a certain amount of the daughter material was produced by decay!

And yet, oif this was true, it leaves us with the question of why all these rocks have EXACTLY the amount of daughter isotopes, granddaughter isotopes etc that we would expect to see if they were millions of years old.

Why would this be, dad? It's a very big coincidence, isn't it? Don't you think?

I am starting too wonder if you grasp some of these concepts.

You are unable to grasp even the most basic of scientific concepts.

 

[dad]

I've lost count of how many times I've told you now. Of course science isn't about proof (except math, and that's under strictly controlled models).

You still don't understand the term proof.

And yes, evidence can be interpreted either way, but no, it doesn't fit DSP best.

Enough quibbling over terms. Just give us what you have call it evidence proof whatever. Fact is you are talking for nothing cause no one has proof for what was not here your present state past. Deal with it.

 

[dad]

The point was that somehow we have rock samples that radiodate to millions of years old. You've never been able to explain how this is possible. Every single time you've tried, you've used flawed science.

False. You have rates and ratios, and silly assumptions that daughter materials were all here already. Argument from ignorance.

And how can we possibly have so many different stories of a global flood if Noah and his family were the only survivors? There are NO accounts of a global flood that agree with the Bible's account.

he had kids. They remembered stories.

Oh no, dad. Be specific. Pick some bit of science and explain in detail how it supports a DSP. You;ve never done this because you can't.

Mountain building. It agrees with a post flood rapid continental movement. Such a rapid move is not possible in the present state.

Any Cretacious rock will do, but there are lots of others.

OK get one. Then show what stuff in it you think helps your case.

So, you said that the tennis balls cannot tell us anything about the past.

Not the pre tilt past.

And yet now you say the tennis balls CAN tell us something about the past.

Yes the post tilt past!

And yet, oif this was true, it leaves us with the question of why all these rocks have EXACTLY the amount of daughter isotopes, granddaughter isotopes etc that we would expect to see if they were millions of years old.

Easy. They had stuff when our state started. How many imaginary millions or billions of years that stuff 'would take' to produce based on present state rates is meaningless.

 

[Elendur]

Enough quibbling over terms. Just give us what you have call it evidence proof whatever. Fact is you are talking for nothing cause no one has proof for what was not here your present state past. Deal with it.

And. Again. You show you don't understand the term proof.

It's not quibbling, it's of the most importance to actually start talking. You're making the same mistakes over and over again.

If you would learn those three terms along with the concept epistemology you would avoid almost all of your major mistakes.

So, I encourage you to learn these three definitions:
Proof
Objective evidence
Subjective evidence

And this concept:
Epistemology

I won't start posting evidence again until you've understood the term.

Deal with it.

 

[Tiberius]

False. You have rates and ratios, and silly assumptions that daughter materials were all here already. Argument from ignorance.

Ah, but you've never answered how all these rocks could have the ratios we'd expect to see if they were the result of millions of years of decay if they WEREN'T the result of millions of years of decay!

he had kids. They remembered stories.

Then why are there so many differences between the stories?

Mountain building. It agrees with a post flood rapid continental movement. Such a rapid move is not possible in the present state.

Only if you insist that such mountains were formed in a short space of time. There is no evidence for this limitation. If a long period of time is allowed, then the processes we see today explain it very nicely.

In other words, you are assuming a DSP in order to show there was a DSP. Circular logic!

OK get one. Then show what stuff in it you think helps your case.

I will get several from many different parts of the world, point out that they all have EXACTLY THE SAME RATIOS OF PARENT ISOTOPE TO DAUGHTER ISOTOPE and then ask you how this could possibly be.

Not the pre tilt past.

Yes the post tilt past!

Ah, but we were talking about different states, weren't we? Now you are changing your tune!

Easy. They had stuff when our state started. How many imaginary millions or billions of years that stuff 'would take' to produce based on present state rates is meaningless.

Ah, so all of them SOMEHOW had exactly the right amount of daughter isotopes, and granddaughter isotopes to match perfectly with what we'd expect to see if they had decayed radioactively?

All of them?

From everywhere?

And bear in mind, we aren't talking about a single worldwide event that could produce this. I'm talking about EVERY SINGLE rock! Of any kind! All of them, somehow had the exact ratio set up to make it look like they decayed radioactively, even though they didn't!

Well, golly gee, is that an amazing coincidence or what?

 

[dad]

And. Again. You show you don't understand the term proof.

It's not quibbling, it's of the most importance to actually start talking. You're making the same mistakes over and over again.

If you would learn those three terms along with the concept epistemology you would avoid almost all of your major mistakes.

So, I encourage you to learn these three definitions:
Proof
Objective evidence
Subjective evidence

And this concept:
Epistemology

I won't start posting evidence again until you've understood the term.

Deal with it.

When you get some of this stuff you bandy about, get back to us. There is none for a same state past of any sort whatsoever, absolutely zero. So I will stick with God, thanks.

 

[dad]

Ah, but you've never answered how all these rocks could have the ratios we'd expect to see if they were the result of millions of years of decay if they WEREN'T the result of millions of years of decay!

What's your game..ignore the repeated answers and cut and paste the same question? Get serious. The stuff was here already apparently for the most part, and engaged in doing what stuff does in the former state.

Then why are there so many differences between the stories?

Ever passed a story around a group of people and watched how the last person to hear the whispered story tells it? Now add pagan bias, and etc...and presto.

Only if you insist that such mountains were formed in a short space of time. There is no evidence for this limitation. If a long period of time is allowed, then the processes we see today explain it very nicely.

Or short. Either one.

In other words, you are assuming a DSP in order to show there was a DSP. Circular logic!

No I realize that science has been assuming a SSP in order to show there was a SSP. Literally. I assume science doesn't know, and when we assume God's state then all evidence fits.

I will get several from many different parts of the world, point out that they all have EXACTLY THE SAME RATIOS OF PARENT ISOTOPE TO DAUGHTER ISOTOPE and then ask you how this could possibly be.

Easy, they are ll in this world, which means present state. Therefore whatever pattern came down from the former state, would be applicable.

Ah, but we were talking about different states, weren't we? Now you are changing your tune!

Noo because the tilt in the tennis ball mental experiment represented the nature change.

Ah, so all of them SOMEHOW had exactly the right amount of daughter isotopes, and granddaughter isotopes to match perfectly with what we'd expect to see if they had decayed radioactively?

In similar rocks, we would expect similar amounts of daughter materials. Both then and now. The only difference perhaps being that the daughter material is only a decay product in this state.

And bear in mind, we aren't talking about a single worldwide event that could produce this. I'm talking about EVERY SINGLE rock! Of any kind! All of them, somehow had the exact ratio set up to make it look like they decayed radioactively, even though they didn't!

Right, we are talking about the nuclear forces and spin, and gravity, and etc etc etc. If these change in earth, naturally the effect is all over. The result being that the forces after the change resulted in what we see today going on.

 

[Elendur]

When you get some of this stuff you bandy about, get back to us. There is none for a same state past of any sort whatsoever, absolutely zero. So I will stick with God, thanks.

Why would I need to present the evidence yet again? You will just hand wave it aways with your flawed understanding of the term.

 

[Tiberius]

What's your game..ignore the repeated answers and cut and paste the same question? Get serious. The stuff was here already apparently for the most part, and engaged in doing what stuff does in the former state.

I can't ignore something you;ve never provided.

Your explanation is flawed because if you were right, then those pre-existing daughter materials would have decayed for the entire length of the present state, and we would be seeing that the ratios are off from what we would expect.

Ever passed a story around a group of people and watched how the last person to hear the whispered story tells it? Now add pagan bias, and etc...and presto.

But we wouldn't expect to see some versions of the stories that say people survived by climbing tall mountains to stay above the flood, and some versions that say that no one survived, would we? I mean, that's a bit of a big error to get in there!

Or short. Either one.

Well, at least now you are accepting that an old universe that has always had the present state would produce everything that we see.

Unfortunately, your DSP has no credible evidence.

No I realize that science has been assuming a SSP in order to show there was a SSP. Literally. I assume science doesn't know, and when we assume God's state then all evidence fits.

Given that there are so many different versions of Christianity alone, let alone all the other religious beliefs, it would seem that there is no way to test this evidence you present. There are ways to test all of science. That's why it is science.

Easy, they are ll in this world, which means present state. Therefore whatever pattern came down from the former state, would be applicable.

They are what in this world?

Noo because the tilt in the tennis ball mental experiment represented the nature change.

So then why did you say that it was possible to learn about the past from the way they were tilted if we were always talking about a DSP?

In similar rocks, we would expect similar amounts of daughter materials. Both then and now. The only difference perhaps being that the daughter material is only a decay product in this state.

Why would we expect similar amounts if the rocks are created by different means in different places at different times?

Right, we are talking about the nuclear forces and spin, and gravity, and etc etc etc. If these change in earth, naturally the effect is all over. The result being that the forces after the change resulted in what we see today going on.

You have no idea what you are talking about. I am talking about the different materials having different half lives.

 

[dad]

Why would I need to present the evidence yet again? You will just hand wave it aways with your flawed understanding of the term.

You don't. We all know what state we are in. Just clam up about any fables of the future or far past.

 

[dad]

I can't ignore something you;ve never provided.

The daughter material was here already in my current opiniion. That covers it.

Your explanation is flawed because if you were right, then those pre-existing daughter materials would have decayed for the entire length of the present state, and we would be seeing that the ratios are off from what we would expect.

Of course things decayed for 4400 years. Not a real big 'entire length' for the decay process!

But we wouldn't expect to see some versions of the stories that say people survived by climbing tall mountains to stay above the flood, and some versions that say that no one survived, would we? I mean, that's a bit of a big error to get in there!

No. Those sort of embellishments or separate flood myths are not important.

Well, at least now you are accepting that an old universe that has always had the present state would produce everything that we see.

No. Because I accept that mountain building and continent separation was fast. One can look at the evidence from science either way.

Unfortunately, your DSP has no credible evidence.

Fortunately, your SSP has no credible evidence, or any at all in fact! The record of man and God concur with me.

Given that there are so many different versions of Christianity alone, let alone all the other religious beliefs, it would seem that there is no way to test this evidence you present. There are ways to test all of science. That's why it is science.

There is no way to test the present state past you require so by your admission it is not science. I agree.

They are what in this world?

If they are here, then they are in the present state!

So then why did you say that it was possible to learn about the past from the way they were tilted if we were always talking about a DSP?

We could learn if we knew the situation before this state started. To some small degree we also can know just in this state certain things. For example, if the rates are known, we can know that 4400 year worth of decay daughter material was produced.

Why would we expect similar amounts if the rocks are created by different means in different places at different times?

Because like gravity, the laws that work on all earth rocks are what counts.

 

[Elendur]

You don't. We all know what state we are in. Just clam up about any fables of the future or far past.

And there you go again.

Can you present an argument, based on the definition of evidence, why there is no evidence of a same state past?

If you don't I just have to accept that you're avoiding the issue and admitting to your inability to understand this basic term.

 

[dad]

Why would I need to present the evidence yet again? You will just hand wave it aways with your flawed understanding of the term.

It would be a crime against reason itself to call anything you posted evidence for a same state past or future. You are welcome to your beliefs.

 

[dad]

Your explanation is flawed because if you were right, then those pre-existing daughter materials would have decayed for the entire length of the present state, and we would be seeing that the ratios are off from what we would expect.

Absurd. Just add the amount of daughter material produced in this state by decay TO the stuff already here. This might help...a little math... X + Y = P (where X is the daughter here already, and Y is the daughter material produced in this state, and P is what we see in the Present!

But we wouldn't expect to see some versions of the stories that say people survived by climbing tall mountains to stay above the flood, and some versions that say that no one survived, would we? I mean, that's a bit of a big error to get in there!

Name one!? Let's see if it is old as the hills....

Well, at least now you are accepting that an old universe that has always had the present state would produce everything that we see.

False. It can be explained that way, and has been. But it is flawed to the core.

Unfortunately, your DSP has no credible evidence.

All history and God's communication to man actually. What you want to mislabel credible is of no consequence.

Given that there are so many different versions of Christianity alone, let alone all the other religious beliefs, it would seem that there is no way to test this evidence you present. There are ways to test all of science. That's why it is science.

Test a state of the future or past by a bible case? That is easy. I do it. No one can refute it. End of story. It rules

Oh darn, this is looking familiar...I think I answered this post already. Oh well, there is some new light in this reply so let's keep it and post it then..

 

[dad]

And there you go again.

Can you present an argument, based on the definition of evidence, why there is no evidence of a same state past?

Name any piece of evidence and learn why.

If you don't I just have to accept that you're avoiding the issue and admitting to your inability to understand this basic term.

You need to accept that science doesn't know the state and laws of the past. Period.

 

[Tiberius]

The daughter material was here already in my current opiniion. That covers it.

It does NOT cover why it is in the exact ratio that we'd expect if it had come from radioactive decay in a SSP. You've NEVER covered this. Why that particular ratio instead of some other? Why do all the rocks show the exact ratio we'd expect to see?

Of course things decayed for 4400 years. Not a real big 'entire length' for the decay process!

Let's say you;re right. The daughter material would have had to be in a very specific amount in order for us to see the ratios we see today. Why was it this particular amount?

No. Those sort of embellishments or separate flood myths are not important.

Typical. Embrace the bits you like, discount the bits you don't. You're criteria for choosing? If it agrees with what you have decided or not.

Do you think you have actually convinced ANYONE with this thread?

No. Because I accept that mountain building and continent separation was fast. One can look at the evidence from science either way.

Once again, you get so caught up in your ideas that you read what you WANT to red, not what I am actually saying.

I said that IF there was a SSP, then the universe would need to be old.

Get it?

Fortunately, your SSP has no credible evidence, or any at all in fact! The record of man and God concur with me.

Your evidence is not testable and is hearsay. My evidence (which I have been posting throughout the thread) is very testable.

it's falsifiable too. A single rock in which the ratios of parent material, daughter material, granddaughter material, great-granddaughter material did NOT match what we'd expect them to be due to radioactive decay would prove me wrong very effectively.

There is no way to test the present state past you require so by your admission it is not science. I agree.

I just showed you a way to test my position. It is science.

If they are here, then they are in the present state!

If they were formed in a DSP, then they would not look like they had always existed in a SSP!

We could learn if we knew the situation before this state started. To some small degree we also can know just in this state certain things. For example, if the rates are known, we can know that 4400 year worth of decay daughter material was produced.

But that's not what you said, is it? You said that if we look at the way the balls are tilted NOW, we can learn something, however small, about the way it was all tilted before.

Because like gravity, the laws that work on all earth rocks are what counts.

The laws in action are the same, but that doesn't mean that all rocks will be the same. That's why we have granite, marble and a whole bunch of other different kinds of rocks.

 

[Tiberius]

Absurd. Just add the amount of daughter material produced in this state by decay TO the stuff already here. This might help...a little math... X + Y = P (where X is the daughter here already, and Y is the daughter material produced in this state, and P is what we see in the Present!

And isn't it amazing that the value of X is exactly what we'd expect to see if it was all Y!

Name one!? Let's see if it is old as the hills....

Flood myths.

False. It can be explained that way, and has been. But it is flawed to the core.

If it has been, it hasn't been by you.

All history and God's communication to man actually. What you want to mislabel credible is of no consequence.

Exceot what we have was written by man, not God.

Test a state of the future or past by a bible case? That is easy. I do it. No one can refute it. End of story. It rules

You miss the point...

Oh darn, this is looking familiar...I think I answered this post already. Oh well, there is some new light in this reply so let's keep it and post it then..

You may have replied to it, but you never gave an answer. Just flawed logic.