Atheism. What are your thoughts?

[3rdHeaven]

I can only repeat my challenge:

"y all means, cite the evidence which tells us the universe genuinely began 13.5 billion years ago, with the Big Bang."

I'm a physics, I'm well aware of what the theory states, and what it doesn't. I'm aware of what the evidence is, and what notions it supports, and what it doesn't. If you genuinely believe that there is evidence that the universe actually began with the Big Bang, I invite you to cite it.

But you are the one making the extraordinary claim it did not yet offered no evidence such as any element or elements older then the big bang. Why do you ask for evidence from me? It is you making the extraordinary claim here with nothing but an opinion or educated guess at best. By what grounds do you suppose the universe is older then the big bang and what evidence do you have to offer for this?

 

[someguy14]

Did it. Didn't take.

I'm hoping that's not your best evidence.

Relate, truely believe. Walk in those shoes(sandals). Believe it first then test it. The truth is, none disagree with love. Love is blameless. Neither you or any other can disagree that love is good. Love intends no harm to another. Love desires the best for one another. Love is the winner friend.

 

[The Nihilist]

Relate, truely believe. Walk in those shoes(sandals). Believe it first then test it. The truth is, none disagree with love. Love is blameless. Neither you or any other can disagree that love is good. Love intends no harm to another. Love desires the best for one another. Love is the winner friend.

If you knew my exgirlfriend, you'd take that all back.

 

[someguy14]

In and of itself, certainly, but again, with regards to the topic, it's irrelevant. We're discussing ethics and morality, the ability to say "don't kill" without reference to the Bible. Whether the universe formed by natural, unintelligent processes, or was created by God, or whatever, doesn't affect this.

Atheism. That is the topic. Atheism is a disbelif in a Creator, yet testifys of what is. How is that "what is" existant? Your divided. The earth exists, where does it come from though? The Holy Bible offers and explanation. Science offers a big bang. Where did a bigbang come from? Address it if you are truely interested in persueing your belief that a god doesnt exist. The burden of poof rest upon your shoulders. Your the one that must prove a random series of events that has accumilated to current events of today. Believers in God, a Creator have already presented a summary of explanations. If you are truely interested in proving creation to be formed in some other way, provide evidence. The burden of proof lies upon yourself. We have offered an explanation.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

According to this scripture, you are ungodly, unrighteous, unthankful, and even after His invisible attributes have been clearly seen -- you deny them!

Scripture also says donkeys can talk. To an atheist, citing the Bible is no more meaningful than citing the Qur'an, or Peter Rabbit.

Even Eistein after studying the universe for many years realized that there must be a God because there is so much order it couldn't have happened by chance.

"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropomorphic concept which I cannot take seriously. I feel also not able to imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. My views are near to those of Spinoza: admiration for the beauty of and belief in the logical simplicity of the order and harmony which we can grasp humbly and only imperfectly. I believe that we have to content ourselves with our imperfect knowledge and understanding and treat values and moral obligations as a purely human problem—the most important of all human problems."
- From a letter to Murray W. Gross, 26 April 1947
​

Einstein was explicit in his rejection of a personal, intelligent deity, rather, he believed in the God of Spinoza.

But let's say he did believe in an intelligent designer - so what?

Matter does not organize itself.

Yes, it does, and there are four forces that allow it to do this.

Stephen Hawking has answers that atheists cling to, but he is foolish. That's another verse: "He who says there is no God is a fool". But your argument of course would be supporting the Big Bang and on the side of evolution, a mindless process of chance mutations ordering themselves with mindless nature choosing beneficial mutations in a piece by piece manner to become complex, unique life forms, provided for in unique ways within a vast eco-sytem ... not to mention life spontaneously happening as a result of some chemical + electrical + electromagnetic + solar energies effecting some premordial goo and poof, millions of years later, you. (I could have broken up that run on sentence but heck with it!)

Make it sound as ridiculous as you want, its veracity is determined by the evidence alone. If you need to resort to cheap semantic tricks, well, you've already lost.

I'll share something from a book I wrote.

"Let's use another example, the human embryo. The male
sperm fertilizes the female egg. Why? What wills it to do this?​

Does it have a little brain to direct itself? Does it say to itself, “I
just have to get into that egg?” No, it has no brain. It swims like a
fish but in and of itself does not have consciousness. So what is the
causal force that wills these tiny cells? Again we nonchalantly
respond; [FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]“[/FONT]that's life!”​

No, we attribute it to well-understood biochemical impulses. Chemical motors drive it forward, and it directs itself using chemical cues within the vagina, cervix, uterus, and fallopian tube, all the way to the positively odours egg. It basically smells it out, but requires no more intelligence than a plant does when it turns towards the Sun.

But let's dig below the surface. There must
be someone or something outside of itself. Out of a million sperm
cells, one penetrates the egg wall, fertilizes the egg and mitosis
begins. These cells begin to multiply rapidly. Do the cells
communicate to each other?

Yes.

Are we to believe that there is nothing
outside of the womb organizing this process?

Yes.

Let's imagine one cell saying to the other cell, “let's make a
human!” “Ok guys. We have a tough job to do. Did you do your
studies? I want no mistakes here. First we need to decipher the
billions of bits of information from our genetic code to organize
the trillions of cells into this complex body. We have to duplicate
ourselves, correct errors, make modifications, build factories that
manufacture complex proteins and amino acids and millions of
other precision tasks that are time-sensitive. All systems function
dependently on each other. You guys over there, make the brain
and nervous system and you on this side, the circulatory system
and you, the lungs and respiratory system and so on. If there are
any questions, refer to the code!” This may be a good idea for a
cartoon but it is obviously a ridiculous scenario

Farcial, yes, but accurate, in its crude way. The cells react to their own genetic material, which tells them exactly what to do.

Those would be
very smart cells, smarter than any humans on the planet. Seriously,
they are complex cells but they are not the builders and brains
behind the operation nor do they organize themselves!

A bald assertion on your part. Evolution explains how this phenomenon can come about, despite your attempts to ridicule it.

Since energy that comes from the sun or nuclear or
electromagnetic or electrical or any chemical reaction, does not
have intelligence to decipher codes and organize this mind
boggling task, it must be more than energy.

Err, no. The proteins and enzymes which mediate this task have evolved over millions of years to become very good indeed at what they do.

This life force requires
intelligence and power beyond what we know. If it has a mind then
it is a person, an incredible being! And all living and nonliving
things depend on this Supreme Being to create, organize, grow and
sustain everything. One does not need to go back in history for
proof of God, just look at all the designs of life around you. Look
at the stars in the sky. Design requires a Designer, order requires
an Organizer, mathematical laws require a Law Giver and creation

requires a Creator." RDB

Each statement here is just unsupported conjecture after unsupported conjecture, making sweeping philosophical assumptions and gratuitous scientific errors.

Another invisible attribute is one that exists inside you. You say you have morals. A moral code or compass is evidence of God as well. Where did that come from?

Briefly, our sense of morality is an evolved response to social living. The nebulous urge to not kill other humans stems from the fact that those around you are likely to be your kin, and thus carry something very similar to your genetic code. "Don't kill" is also the basis of a mammalian society - rampant psychopathy would end the society before it began. Thus, to function as a society, we evolved these instincts to curb behaviour that would otherwise doom us.

Your conscience says you ought to go this way and you try to rationalize or analyze it logically and choose the wrong way! The voice inside you telling you to do something isn't always you? Is that you arguing with yourself. You may say, your parents or society taught you morals. But this conflict within, just you struggling with yourself? And then what about afterwards, the experience guilt for doing something wrong even if no one knows? Is this a self imposed moral that we violate? Why do you feel guilty for anything?

A negative feedback loop in the brain to prevent repetion of behaviour we have evolved to dislike - treachery, betrayal, theft, etc, all serve to stop us from doing something.

God wired us that way.

Oh, look, another unsupported assertion.

Even though you are not aware of it, he has led you to this forum. He orchestrates people and events in your life to lead you to a certain moment at which time He reveals Himself.

He's taking his time. Is God so limited in faculty that he has to wait?

Get ready, I'll pray for you.

For what purpose? Do you expect, genuinely expect, that there's a chance God will change his mind and accelerate whatever plans you say he has? Whether you pray for him or not, how will that change the relationship between God and AtheistAlan?

Philosophy ... don't you love it?

Indeed!

 

[someguy14]

The Big Bang isn't something that happens at any one point, it's a phenomenon that the entire universe is undergoing. Every point in space is moving away from every other point. It's like asking what happened before the beginning of time, or what's north of the north pole, or who's the bachelor's wife, or what colour an invisible unicorn is - the very nature of the question renders it moot. It's not the easiest concept to get your head around, for sure, but it's robust.

So you are still curious and exploring answers. Im not against that. The actual truth does not fail.

 

[someguy14]

I'm not sure what you mean. A theory is the highest echelon of certainty possible by science - atoms and galaxies are theoretical, after all. Be careful you don't fall into the, "But it's just a theory!" fallacy.

A theory is an educated guess, stemmed from equations that result in a response of, "my best guess is", or "my calculations point to". Demanding ultimate proof from a believer and yet giving yourself a "wiggle room" to say "it may or may not be" is not proving your "theorys" to be true, instead, simply saying, "I can't say for sure, but Im speculating", or "It could be this or that". Leaving yourself in a state of doubt, from your own confessing, unreliable source of truth and rather still desiring to obtain the truth, or admitting that your wasting every human beings time by saying "Im only guessing so that neither side will blame me for being wrong, because Im scared of their fury of correcting me, so I will just remain neutral and not say it is one way or another". That is moot, friend. Literally jump into a conclusion, without fear, God is greater, don't worry, I can protect you. Jump into an actual summary, and walk in its paths and discard the fake and accept the truths and conclude based on the truth of it. Do not be afraid. Mankinds judgement means squat compared to actual truth.

 

[someguy14]

The Big Bang isn't something that happens at any one point, it's a phenomenon that the entire universe is undergoing.

A super nova. Consider that that is an end. Every ending has a beginning.

Where did the universe come from?
Your argument is at a stalemate until you have an answer for every doubt.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

But you are the one making the extraordinary claim it did not

By all means, cite the post wherein I made this claim. I'll make it easier for you. With regards to the discussion between me and your good self, there are six posts (from oldest to latest):

#298 (my response to Asvin).
#303 (your first response to me).
#306 (my first response to you).
#323 (your response to me).
#339 (my last response to you).
#341 (your latest response to me).

My posts are #298, #306, and #339. In which post (or posts) did I claim that the universe is older than the Big Bang?

yet offered no evidence such as any element or elements older then the big bang.

Because, as I carefully explained in a previous post, our theories don't allow us to say anything about what happened before the Big Bang, or even if anything happened at all.

Why do you ask for evidence from me?

Because you made a claim. In your original reply to me, back in post #303, you said:

"You realize [the universe] was created from the big bang right?"
"There was nothing before the big bang, zip, notta nothing."
"Every thing came in to being from [the Big Bang]."

You stated, in no uncertain terms, that the universe actually began with, and was created by, the Big Bang. This is a claim, one I consider to be unsupported by the evidence, hence my request.

It is you making the extraordinary claim here with nothing but an opinion or educated guess at best. By what grounds do you suppose the universe is older then the big bang and what evidence do you have to offer for this?

See above.

 

[someguy14]

If you believe in Genesis is a literal, historical account, then we very much can prove it wrong. But there are many interpretations of the various texts and claims of the Bible, so I cannot comment on whether your beliefs have been disproven or not until you expound them.

Genesis. A wonderful and glorious book. Ask any question you are curious about. I can help where I can help.

Lived to be over one thousand years old. All things are possible. Rotation of earth. Faster, slower. Gravity. Creation. I have witnessed numerous so called atheists say that the creation story does not veer off course with the big bang theory. Ask yourself, how is the earth placed in such a way as to support life. So calculated, so constant. How do almost every planet or ball of matter contain elements that are pieces of the earth. Earth contains them all, yet they contain one, or numerous amunts of a substance, yet not as many as earth.

What doubts concern yourself about genesis?
Considering God is capable of all things.

 

[3rdHeaven]

I state that the universe came from the big bang because nothing can be dated prior to the big bang. Rather simple no?

If you can show me any thing older then 13.75 billion years then we can discuss your opinion that the universe existed or any thing existed before the big bang.

Waiting for some thing older then the big bang..

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Atheism. That is the topic. Atheism is a disbelif in a Creator, yet testifys of what is. How is that "what is" existant? Your divided. The earth exists, where does it come from though?

The accretion of matter in the nebular cloud that preceded the solar system.

The Holy Bible offers and explanation.

As do the Qur'an and the Vedas. Anyone can posit a guess, but science offers real explanations that can be tested and verified.

Science offers a big bang. Where did a bigbang come from?

We don't know. The evidence tells us that there is indeed a Big Bang, but we do not yet know what, if anything, caused it.

Address it if you are truely interested in persueing your belief that a god doesnt exist.

I've never made such a claim. Please do not put words into my mouth.

The burden of poof rest upon your shoulders. Your the one that must prove a random series of events that has accumilated to current events of today.

Where would you like me to start?

Believers in God, a Creator have already presented a summary of explanations. If you are truely interested in proving creation to be formed in some other way, provide evidence. The burden of proof lies upon yourself. We have offered an explanation.

Except, you haven't. "Goddidit" is not an explanation, it's a placeholder for a real explanation. More to the point, we scientists are interested in testable explanations, explanations that actually hold water when you poke them, which can stand on their own empirical merits.

"Goddidit" is not testable, and so is no more believable than "The Flying Spaghetti Monster did it".

A theory is an educated guess, stemmed from equations that result in a response of, "my best guess is", or "my calculations point to". Demanding ultimate proof from a believer and yet giving yourself a "wiggle room" to say "it may or may not be" is not proving your "theorys" to be true, instead, simply saying, "I can't say for sure, but Im speculating", or "It could be this or that".

I don't think you quite understand how science works. First, no one demands ultimate proof unless someone asserts they have it. Second, scientific parlance is couched in the probablistic simply because we don't say more than we know - if the evidence shows a 95% correlation, we're going to say there's a 95% correlation. If the evidence shows that a drug probably cures this disease, then we're going to say the drug probably cures the disease.

I'm baffled why you lambaste us for sticking to the truth and nothing but the truth.

Leaving yourself in a state of doubt, from your own confessing, unreliable source of truth and rather still desiring to obtain the truth, or admitting that your wasting every human beings time by saying "Im only guessing so that neither side will blame me for being wrong, because Im scared of their fury of correcting me, so I will just remain neutral and not say it is one way or another".

Err... no. Scientists couch their language in the probabilistic because they are smart enough to know that absolute knowledge is only attainable in pure mathematics. However, you're hyperbole is so far off that I don't know where to start. Just because we freely and openly admit that we may be wrong, doesn't mean we can't confidently say, "Penicillin saves lives", "The Earth is not flat", etc. 99.99999% certainty is pretty dаmn certain.

That is moot, friend. Literally jump into a conclusion, without fear, God is greater, don't worry, I can protect you. Jump into an actual summary, and walk in its paths and discard the fake and accept the truths and conclude based on the truth of it. Do not be afraid. Mankinds judgement means squat compared to actual truth.

Then why should I listen to you, if you openly admit that your own words mean nothing?

A super nova. Consider that that is an end. Every ending has a beginning.

Where did the universe come from?
Your argument is at a stalemate until you have an answer for every doubt.

Not at all: "I don't know" is a legitimate response when, well, I don't know. I don't know everything, and I never will. I freely admit that. I limit myself wholly to what the evidence can support.

The evidence gathered thus far shows that the unvierse has been expanding for 13.5 billion years. Fantastic! Our technology does not yet allow us to peer much further back - we need a greater understanding of high-energy physics to do that, hence CERN. But so what? The evidence does indeed show that the universe has been expanding for 13.5 billion years, so I confidently assert that. But the evidence does not say what caused that expansion, so I cannot assert what caused it.

That I cannot (yet) say what caused the Big Bang, doesn't negate the fact that the Big Bang is a real phenomenon. I don't need to know who killed someone, to know that they are dead. Maybe, one day, we'll figure that out, but at this moment, we don't.

 

[someguy14]

Because, as I carefully explained in a previous post, our theories don't allow us to say anything about what happened before the Big Bang, or even if anything happened at all.

Your theories? What is stopping your "theories" from exploring the claims of The Bible?

One that stops at the big bang and cannot explain where it happened is unworthy of being the authority of truth. You get to a point and then stop, due to lack of knowledge. Your lack of knowledge proves that your not capable of authority to exercise full understanding and therefore, your in doubt. God, however, is not in doubt.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I state that the universe came from the big bang because nothing can be dated prior to the big bang. Rather simple no?

If you can show me any thing older then 13.75 billion years then we can discuss your opinion that the universe existed or any thing existed before the big bang.

Waiting for some thing older then the big bang..

And I'm waiting for you to point to anywhere in this thread where I made such an assertion.

I laid it all out for you, I couldn't be more generous. Quote me, please, where I ever once asserted (as you explicitly state) that the universe is older than the Big Bang. Again, you assert that I am of this opinion - yet I am not. Where have I ever stated such a thing? I'm truly baffled, both by your continual assertion that I believe such a thing, and your dogged refusal to prove that I ever said such a thing.

 

[someguy14]

I'm not sure what you mean. A theory is the highest echelon of certainty possible by science -

So your admitting that science fails.
God doesn't fail.
God answers all these questions you truely seek. He does not back down on His answers. That is very bold and very certain.

Seriously though, a theory? That is the best your science can offer? An "educated" guess? A guess?!!!!! How "educated" is that?

I prefer to view science as a study for the truth, not a so-called, educated guess.

Each human being can offer a guess. That is not special. Though some "guesses" are special. The solid truth, is worth it's weight in gold.

 

[someguy14]

Originally Posted by someguy14

Because God is the Creator.
​

Do you have any evidence to support this assertion?

Friend, look around you. Life. Birds building nest's. Oceans maintaining life for fish and mammal, that cannot survive without it. Water. Just water in itself, is a miracle, how beautiful the purpose that water provides. None can do without it for life. It's importance. A tree. A tree provides so many service to life. Oxygen, shade from the sun, homes for the birds, furniture. Fire fuel to keep us warm. On and on. All of these things working together to support life. Day after day. It is a miracle.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Relate, truely believe. Walk in those shoes(sandals). Believe it first then test it.

Tried it. Didn't take. Tested it. Found it wanting.

The truth is, none disagree with love. Love is blameless. Neither you or any other can disagree that love is good. Love intends no harm to another. Love desires the best for one another. Love is the winner friend.

I disagree that love is objectively good.

 

[someguy14]

Perhaps, but he's woefully lacking in his ability to show it. Suffering, tragedy, death, all have befallen me and my loved ones - had I the means, I wouldn't sit in the shadows and watch those I love "very much" live in torment. Free will or no free will, suffering is never justified, except possibly to diminish further suffering.

Suffering, tragedy, death. Are not those things fueled by wickedness? If man chooses to harm others, or blindly seeks to please itself, does that not promote those very things which you are against?
Do ye not yet understand that God offers a comfort for those situations that mankind has promoted unto themselves? To overcome them. that is the importance of Jesus rising from the dead. To let us know that death is defeated. Do ye not yet understand that if a place was created from a mystery, that all things are possible, and those that accept The Creator as friend have conquered death and pain, that war against God, and understand that this earth is temporal, which we witness throughout these lives we suddenly accompany, and are given the choices to choose the goodness and reject the wickedness that perishes. If this is able to happen, such a mystery, unexplainable by those that have invested their entire lives to figuring out, that also eternity, which is planted on every heart that has ever existed, is possible and obtainable through the one that has made all of this possible.

If I were to say, all things are possible, would you believe me? A place without pain, without suffering. A place where death no longer exists. it is easy to love when pain does not exist. This is how thankfu I am to God. Though I endure such pain, He still overcomes with His love. That is how powerful it is. It defeats any pain you may have in your life. The Creator of each of us is our true parent, loved one, friend. The one that never leaves us.

You have admitted, that ending of suffering and pain is good. The Creator, God, offers this to us. It is true, within me, and within you, regardless of how much another attempts, blindly or intentionally to destory that. God offers that for you, with open arms, and waits patiently for you to accept Him for the one that He is.

 

[someguy14]

And the Bible still promotes stoning gay people to death. Context is everything, my friend.

Fleshly lusts are sin. Sin will be destroyed. Whether a person chooses to serve sin or God, God is the judge. All Christians are taught not to kill. Live peaceably with all mankind. If we are accused, rather take wrong and be obedient to God unto death. Jesus clearly teaches that stoning is not possible unless one is blameless. God is the blameless. Vengeance belongs unto God only.

Offer blessing when cursed. If the wicked desire to kill, let them kill, unless God prevent it. To die is gain. It is truely about loving the Maker of goodness and one another. Without violence.

 

[someguy14]

If you knew my exgirlfriend, you'd take that all back.

Funny.

Seriously though, perfect love is good and desires no harm to another. Alterior moives may arise in those that serve sin, but love never fails. Relating love with issues that happen apart from love cannot be blamed on love, in truth. Love is sincerely pure and only comes from it's source.