Things non-Calvinists should know about Calvinism

[ConsumedByHisCall]

okay, so we will run a scenario.

First, given:
God is all powerful.
God is all knowing
God is love

Imagine the armimian view is true...

1. A believer is seeking approval from classmates to the point that he is afraid.
2. The holy spirit is there, and could intervene, but chooses not to.
3. The man lies to make himself look better, and is accountable for his sin.

Imagine the Calvinist view is true (don't panic, it is theoretical)...

1. A believer is seeking approval from classmates to the point that he is afraid.
2. The holy spirit is there, and could intervene, but chooses not to.
3. The man lies to make himself look better, and is accountable for his sin.

You see? If God's choosing not to send His Spirit does not remove guilt in your view, it does not remove blame in mine.

Maybe Rom is right and you have an error here?

Because point 2 under the Arminian view is inaccurate. We are not the ones who believe God has to do some ADDITIONAL working to enable a believer's free response to resist temptation. We believe God has provided all that he needs to resist temptation but he is free to still sin.

 

[Ormly]

Take that up with Jesus, He said it. I just quoted it and I wasn't even quoting that passage with that part of it meaning to be emphasized. I was drawing attention to the fact that the words he spoke were the 'spirit and life.'

OMT, Consumed. I merely questioned your understanding of what Jesus said, not His. And I don't question to be derogatory.

 

[ConsumedByHisCall]

OMT, Consumed. I merely questioned your understanding of what Jesus said, not His. And I don't question to be derogatory.

I never expressed my opinion of what Jesus said regarding that point which is why I was confused. All I did was quote the entire verse. My commentary was in regard to last part of the verse.

 

[Ormly]

I never expressed my opinion of what Jesus said regarding that point which is why I was confused. All I did was quote the entire verse. My commentary was in regard to last part of the verse.

My error. I should have read for better understanding. I apologize.
Thank you.

 

[DonnyT]

What if God was not good?
Really???

Nor evil

 

[Ormly]

Nor evil

Donny, Knowing this about God is elementary to being a Christian, even professing Christ. . . . By now you should be getting into trouble with the thought police on this forum . . .

 

[Eddie L]

Maybe Rom is right and you have an error here?

Because point 2 under the Arminian view is inaccurate. We are not the ones who believe God has to do some ADDITIONAL working to enable a believer's free response to resist temptation. We believe God has provided all that he needs to resist temptation but he is free to still sin.

Why is it inaccurate? Why is God allowed to stand back in your model and not in mine? If a serial killer is about to kill someone else against the victim's will, why is it God's fault in my model and the killer's fault in your model when the Holy Spirit stands by and watches?

My point isn't that God is on the hook in your view. My point is that God isn't on the hook in either view.

 

[ConsumedByHisCall]

Nor evil

If God were not good or evil then the Bible would be incorrect, because it clearly teaches that God is good. Surely I do not need to provide quotes, and now I will quit calling you Shirley.

 

[DonnyT]

Donny, Knowing this about God is elementary to being a Christian, even professing Christ. . . . By now you should be getting into trouble with the thought police on this forum . . .

If God were not good or evil then the Bible would be incorrect, because it clearly teaches that God is good. Surely I do not need to provide quotes, and now I will quit calling you Shirley.[/quote

Aren't good and evil simply 2 sides of the same coin? This is off topic so i will cease this nonsense!

 

[Ormly]

If God were not good or evil then the Bible would be incorrect, because it clearly teaches that God is good. Surely I do not need to provide quotes, and now I will quit calling you Shirley.[/quote

Aren't good and evil simply 2 sides of the same coin? This is off topic so i will cease this nonsense!

Can you find such understanding when reading the bible? I have aslo heard that comment but never from one who knows what the issues are.

 

[nobdysfool]

If God were not good or evil then the Bible would be incorrect, because it clearly teaches that God is good. Surely I do not need to provide quotes, and now I will quit calling you Shirley.[/quote

Aren't good and evil simply 2 sides of the same coin? This is off topic so i will cease this nonsense!

Well that would be the concept of Abraxas, the god who is both good and evil, which is not the God of the Bible.

 

[Lee52]

Why is it inaccurate? Why is God allowed to stand back in your model and not in mine? If a serial killer is about to kill someone else against the victim's will, why is it God's fault in my model and the killer's fault in your model when the Holy Spirit stands by and watches?

My point isn't that God is on the hook in your view. My point is that God isn't on the hook in either view.

Because in the Calvinist model ALL things are programed by GOD from before time began. GOD programed your serial killer to be reprobate and kill others and GOD allows it so that He can rightly and justly punish that reprobate for his reprobateness and serial killerness. But, the serial killer, when standing before GOD in judgement, can only say; "GOD, I did as I was created by You to do."

In the Arminian-Wesleyan doctrinal view, the serial killer is able to NOT BE a serial killer. If he is, then he bears the brunt of his sinful behavior and has no excuse when standing before GOD at that Great White Throne to answer for his choices.

Be blessed,
Lee52

 

[bottomofsandal]

Because in the Calvinist model ALL things are programed by GOD from before time began. GOD programed your serial killer to be reprobate and kill others and GOD allows it so that He can rightly and justly punish that reprobate for his reprobateness and serial killerness. But, the serial killer, when standing before GOD in judgement, can only say; "GOD, I did as I was created by You to do."

In the Arminian-Wesleyan doctrinal view, the serial killer is able to NOT BE a serial killer. If he is, then he bears the brunt of his sinful behavior and has no excuse when standing before GOD at that Great White Throne to answer for his choices.

Be blessed,
Lee52

Are you an expert on Calvinism ? I am not, but these blanket statements only continue to perpetuate false premises. Just because you believe that a Calvinist (or any IST) believes something does not make it credible, it makes it your opinion. You are arguing from a fallacy. It might appear logical to you, but it is nonetheless a fallacy. If you choose to accurately depict Calvinism then there can be genuine dialogue, otherwise you are arguing something off topic.



As for your serial killer example...this shows a short-coming on your doctrine's comprehension of sin. We are ALL potential serial killers. We are ALL potential ______ (fill in the blank). As for a man standing before God casting off his guilt and placing it on God because God created him, that is so far in left field it cannot be addressed. Show us a writing of any Calvinist, either contemporary or classical that subscribes to what you allege. I can tell you there is none. Why do you continue to make up these wacky scenarios that no one seems to know about other than you and a few others ? If you don't appreciate the mischaracterization by the Calvinist crowd, why do you misrepresent their pov ?

 

[Lee52]

Are you an expert on Calvinism ? I am not, but these blanket statements only continue to perpetuate false premises. Just because you believe that a Calvinist (or any IST) believes something does not make it credible, it makes it your opinion. You are arguing from a fallacy. It might appear logical to you, but it is nonetheless a fallacy. If you choose to accurately depict Calvinism then there can be genuine dialogue, otherwise you are arguing something off topic.



As for your serial killer example...this shows a short-coming on your doctrine's comprehension of sin. We are ALL potential serial killers. We are ALL potential ______ (fill in the blank). As for a man standing before God casting off his guilt and placing it on God because God created him, that is so far in left field it cannot be addressed. Show us a writing of any Calvinist, either contemporary or classical that subscribes to what you allege. I can tell you there is none. Why do you continue to make up these wacky scenarios that no one seems to know about other than you and a few others ? If you don't appreciate the mischaracterization by the Calvinist crowd, why do you misrepresent their pov ?

sigh,

John Wesley, Sermon 128: Free Grace

http://www.calvarychapeltheology.com/Articles/supralapsarianism.pdf


Not just me, my friend......not just me.

Be blessed,
Lee52

 

[bottomofsandal]

sigh,

John Wesley, Sermon 128: Free Grace

http://www.calvarychapeltheology.com/Articles/supralapsarianism.pdf


Not just me, my friend......not just me.

Be blessed,
Lee52

I own books by Wesley, find them enjoyable, love The Holy Spirit emphasis, disagree with prevenient grace. The Calvary Chapel piece was by an anti-Calvinist. Your example proves nothing, it is simply people putting words in other people's mouths. Show us a Calvinist who used the illustration contained in your post. Where does any classical or contemporary Calvinist preach your accusation of God being judged for a man's sins because the man says God made him such. Please show us !

 

[Eddie L]

Because in the Calvinist model ALL things are programed by GOD from before time began. GOD programed your serial killer to be reprobate and kill others and GOD allows it so that He can rightly and justly punish that reprobate for his reprobateness and serial killerness. But, the serial killer, when standing before GOD in judgement, can only say; "GOD, I did as I was created by You to do."

In the Arminian-Wesleyan doctrinal view, the serial killer is able to NOT BE a serial killer. If he is, then he bears the brunt of his sinful behavior and has no excuse when standing before GOD at that Great White Throne to answer for his choices.

Be blessed,
Lee52

Able? What difference does able make when God knows what is going to happen with all certainty? Let's say there is a serial murder. Which of the following answers from God would we be more likely to see in Scripture?

The Arminian Answer: "Though the serial killer was full of spirits of rage and hate, jealousy and fear, I created him with the ability to choose, so it isn't my fault. Sure, I could have intervened, but I wish to respect the serial killer's will, so I did not."

The Calvinist Answer: "Trust me. All things work together for the good of those who love God. Things may seem crazy, and everything may seem like they are coming apart, but I I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things."

Ok, so I cheated.

 

[Lee52]

Able? What difference does able make when God knows what is going to happen with all certainty? Let's say there is a serial murder. Which of the following answers from God would we be more likely to see in Scripture?

The Arminian Answer: "Though the serial killer was full of spirits of rage and hate, jealousy and fear, I created him with the ability to choose, so it isn't my fault. Sure, I could have intervened, but I wish to respect the serial killer's will, so I did not."

The Calvinist Answer: "Trust me. All things work together for the good of those who love God. Things may seem crazy, and everything may seem like they are coming apart, but I I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things."

Ok, so I cheated.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:18-20


For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth—you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law. For, as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.” Romans 2:14-24

And when he (the Holy Spirit) comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

I did not cheat. I put the Word out to read just what it says. Man is without excuse, because GOD makes sure that man understand the consequences of man's own behavior and choices. We are without excuse and those that seek to lead men astray, bear the consequences of teaching false doctrine. You and I need to both realize that by posting here, we are teaching doctrine.

If I am wrong, then no harm no foul, for my message is a message of love for all mankind from a loving Father that tarries to give everyone opportunity to come to the saving grace of Jesus' blood sacrifice.

If you are wrong, and one person that you thought was condemned to be created for evil to better glorify GOD, was not saved because someone from your doctrine of predestination of the few, chased them away or gave them no hope............

I would rather be wrong about giving hope in Jesus to all that hear, and let GOD be the judge, than to preach a hollow gospel to some that gives no hope to others.

Be blessed,
Lee52

 

[bottomofsandal]

If I am wrong, then no harm no foul, for my message is a message of love for all mankind from a loving Father that tarries to give everyone opportunity to come to the saving grace of Jesus' blood sacrifice.

If you are wrong, and one person that you thought was condemned to be created for evil to better glorify GOD, was not saved because someone from your doctrine of predestination of the few, chased them away or gave them no hope............

I would rather be wrong about giving hope in Jesus to all that hear, and let GOD be the judge, than to preach a hollow gospel to some that gives no hope to others.

Be blessed,
Lee52

Oh, our dear brother Lee...


Your misanthropic view of the Calvinist is perplexing. Where do you get this manufactured theology from ? Can you post a link or recommend a book or article written by a Calvinist that corroborates what you just accused Eddie L. of believing ? Otherwise your post is libelous slander.


1) hollow gospel that gives no hope ?

Wouldn't the Calvinist preach "whosoever" will, like you would ? Wouldn't the Calvinist warn of the wrath to come and preach eternal life to all men ? Not knowing who God has chosen is the predictament of any of us---Calvinist, Arminian, or whatever. That is why we preach the good news to all men that Jesus came to save sinners. Please specify the "HOLLOW" gospel Eddie L. spoke.


2) predesdtination of the few, chased them away or gave them no hope.

Doesn't the Bible say a great number will be saved ? Who here or anywhere is excited about few being saved ? No one ! So, you are making stuff up again. Who is chasing people away ? Another crazy prosaic platitude. These phantom references you make are simply defamatory. These comments are pregnant with malignancy. Repeating these silly sophistries over and over again doesn't make them more believable.

 

[BobRyan]

From the OP

10) Calvinists do not limit the value or merit or worth of the blood of Christ. They do limit the intention of the blood to save any other than the elect. We are happy enough (as was John Calvin) with the statement that the blood of Christ is sufficient for the whole world but efficient only for the elect.

I am not a Calvinist - but I believe they argue that the atoning sacrifice of Christ made at the cross puts an end to all aspects of the teaching on Atonement - no more decisions remain, no matter what the Bible says to the contrary.

That error regarding the Atoning Sacrifice vs the full Lev 16 view of Atonement theology - logically leads to "limited atonement" or else universalism. Those are the only two choices once you adopt that starting error.

 

[Lee52]

Oh, our dear brother Lee...


Your misanthropic view of the Calvinist is perplexing. Where do you get this manufactured theology from ? Can you post a link or recommend a book or article written by a Calvinist that corroborates what you just accused Eddie L. of believing ? Otherwise your post is libelous slander.


1) hollow gospel that gives no hope ?

Wouldn't the Calvinist preach "whosoever" will, like you would ? Wouldn't the Calvinist warn of the wrath to come and preach eternal life to all men ? Not knowing who God has chosen is the predictament of any of us---Calvinist, Arminian, or whatever. That is why we preach the good news to all men that Jesus came to save sinners. Please specify the "HOLLOW" gospel Eddie L. spoke.


2) predesdtination of the few, chased them away or gave them no hope.

Doesn't the Bible say a great number will be saved ? Who here or anywhere is excited about few being saved ? No one ! So, you are making stuff up again. Who is chasing people away ? Another crazy prosaic platitude. These phantom references you make are simply defamatory. These comments are pregnant with malignancy. Repeating these silly sophistries over and over again doesn't make them more believable.

Nice condescending reply.

You obviously either ignored or did not fully read either of the links I posted concerning John Wesley's sermon 128 or the post by a senior pastor of Calvary Chapel Church.

But that is okay, our dear brother bottomofthesandal.....