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So apparently nobody actually believes in creationism.

Guy1

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1. I want a list of guys doing complete genome studies 60 years ago. - yes that would be good.

We barely knew about deoxyribonucleic acid 60 years ago, much less the effects it has on the phenotype.

2. I want a list of prokaryotes (bacteria) turning into eukaryotes (single celled animals - like an amoeba).

I'm sure you could find one if you looked one Google. I, personally, am too lazy to do so at the moment.

3. You gave us the example of "bacteria changing diet" -- but the "animals adapting diet" thing was already stated in the Bible.

Where? Where is this? They mentioned bacteria being able to digest nylon? Incredible!
 
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HeIsNowHere

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This video and argument about "evolution" needs to be clarified. This is a common mistake evolutionists make in defining the argument between naturalism and biblical creation. Speciation is accepted by creationist and in fact is caused by natural selection which was not first identified by Darwin by a Creationist Edward Blythe years before Darwin. Speciation is observed and in fact fits well within a Biblical creation worldview. So what is speciation? It is a selection of information from a more general gene pool in a parent to a much more limited gene pool in the offspring. It amounts to loss of information from the created kind not to added information required by the general theory of evolution. Our creator provided a robost genome so that creatures would be able to adapt to differing environments on earth and to become more diverse. Any breeder know this well and can select traits for example in dogs so that a very small dog may not be able to interbreed with a very large dog. The small specialized dog and the very large specialized dog has less genetic content that the grandparents who carried the combination of the entire gene pool of all the animals in their kind. However, they are still dogs not cats and have the features of dogs not cats or whales. But the general theory of evolution says that the first simple life added information and added features and traits which means an increase in genetic content, an increase in the genomic content, which is never observed. This is what is required for the major changes from one kind to another and this is not science but well told stories. Evolutionists use breeding, speciation, and other losses of genetics that are changes in populations to try to prove their general theory of descent of all living things from some unknown single celled life form when in fact increased information and coded information at that is required but they have no mechanisms, no observations, and again only stories about how this may have happened. Biblical creationist show creatures well designed from the start with coded information programmed including known machines with features required for their survival. For example the chloroform bacteria has 6 motors required for survival all made from the genetic coded information instructions. Each of these 6 motors have stators, rotors, and all the parts required by a motor. We know from engineering what a motor is and how these work and we know that all the parts of the motor are required as part of the design of the creature otherwise it could not live. Evolutionists see 6 motors and tell us "it has only the appearance of design". They do so because of the anti-Creator religion not based on science and known facts about how motors and machines work. If they admit the motors were designed they would then have to face the fact that a Creator was required. The same is true for the coded universal information in life. But speciation and rapid speciation with the loss and selection going on has NOTHING to do with creatures coming from some simple single celled animal who self assembled based on code by accident. True Evolution is therefore not science only stories.

Please get the facts of the argument straight on this one.
 
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verysincere

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3. You gave us the example of "bacteria changing diet" -- but the "animals adapting diet" thing was already stated in the Bible. Try something that is not already in the Bible.


I'm accustomed to some of my Christian brethren really being enthusiastic about "today's science predicted in the bible long ago" lists. But despite some 60+ years in Biblical studies, I don't recall any Bible prophecies about bacteria someday evolving to digest nylon in a pond behind a Japanese factory.

(Now if such a prophecy DID exist in the Bible, I would surely have noticed it somewhere along the way. But I admit it: I missed that one.)

I suppose I could ask how "bacteria changing diet" relates to "animals adapting diet" (and where the latter is described in the Bible), but I am prone to prophesying that I'm going to regret it if I actually pose that question!

(Do I hear an AMEN?!)

.
 
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verysincere

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The small specialized dog and the very large specialized dog has less genetic content that [sic? "than"?] the grandparents who carried the combination of the entire gene pool of all the animals in their kind.

No. Totally false.

It is impossible for ANY set of grandparents [4 individuals] to have ALL of the "gene pool" of "all the animals in their kind"!

That is ridiculous! Tell me how just 4 individuals can carry in their DNA all of the known alleles of a species (let alone the "Biblical kind" which many YECs talk about, which they claim can be an entire taxonomic family)!

Yes, there was a LOT of nonsense in the quoted wall of text---but the above excerpt just plain went off the rails!

And while you are explaining it, also define for us what you mean by a KIND!

But as a former anti-evolution Young Earth Creationist (in the 1960's & 1970's), I know the baloney. Here's the routine:

(1) You say, "Show me evolution in action."
(2) They show you an example.
(3) You say, "That's not evolution. That's just micro-evolution. Show me speciation!"
(4) They show you speciation, such as in ring species.
(5) Then you say, "But that's just a bird becoming another bird; a dog becoming another dog."
(6) So then they show you the fossil record full of transitional forms showing major changes from one taxonomic class or order to another, such as reptile to mammal.
(7) Then you say, "There are no transitional fossil forms! I know because Ken Ham told me so! And he also said to say 'Were you there? You didn't see it!' " And then you say, "I need to see it today!"
(8) And that takes us back to #1 again!


So, did I get it right? Is that the script?


Can I hear an AMEN to that?!

.
 
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SkyWriting

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It is impossible for ANY set of grandparents [4 individuals] to have ALL of the "gene pool" of "all the animals in their kind"!


One cell caries all the DNA for one person.
Two cells combine to create offspring.

Those two cells can carry the ability to evolve into all the variation for any "Kind" that we can document today. With God doing the choosing. God can determine which animals would be suitable for this and have undamaged DNA for the task. Or he could just alter the DNA Himself in the available local livestock so it would be up to the task of repopulating the planet after the flood. The KINDS that stocked the Ark may have been perfectly ready and primed to produce all the variation we see today.

And there is a perfectly logical reason for that statement,
because THAT is the definition for "Kind."
The fore-parent of anything that follows.

Just as Adam and Eve were made from scratch for the task of reproducing all of mankind. Just as it reads. :thumbsup:


Matthew 17:20 He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."
 
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SkyWriting

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I'm accustomed to some of my Christian brethren really being enthusiastic about "today's science predicted in the bible long ago" lists. But despite some 60+ years in Biblical studies, I don't recall any Bible prophecies about bacteria someday evolving to digest nylon in a pond behind a Japanese factory. I suppose I could ask how "bacteria changing diet" relates to "animals adapting diet" (and where the latter is described in the Bible), but I am prone to prophesying that I'm going to regret it if I actually pose that question!

If the Bible says that animals can change their diet, then you loose.
Nylon is created from air, water, and coal.
 
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Guy1

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One cell caries all the DNA for one person.

No. One cell carries all the DNA for one cell. Unless you mean reproductive cells like eggs and sperm. In which case you're still wrong. They carry half the DNA needed for a person.

Those two cells can carry the ability to evolve into all the variation for any "Kind" that we can document today.

Define a "Kind." What objective methods can we use to determine one "kind" from another?

With God doing the choosing. God can determine which animals would be suitable for this and have undamaged DNA for the task. Or he could just alter the DNA Himself in the available local livestock so it would be up to the task of repopulating the planet after the flood. The KINDS that stocked the Ark may have been perfectly ready and primed to produce all the variation we see today.

Because this statement is clearly scientific.

And there is a perfectly logical reason for that statement,

I'm listening.
because THAT is the definition for "Kind."
The fore-parent of anything that follows.

So if two creatures share a common ancestor, they're the same kind?

Just as Adam and Eve were made from scratch for the task of reproducing all of mankind. Just as it reads. :thumbsup:

Fascinating.



What is it with you and non-sequiturs?

If the Bible says that animals can change their diet, then you loose.

I don't know what kind of impression you have of him, but he's not that kind of guy. More seriously though, bacteria are not animals.



Nylon is created from air, water, and coal.

Well it's actually created from chemicals extracted from coal, water, air, petroleum, natural gas, and agricultural by-products. I'm willing to call this a "mistake" and not deliberate disinformation.
 
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Lion Hearted Man

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2. I want a list of prokaryotes (bacteria) turning into eukaryotes (single celled animals - like an amoeba).

It is impossible, given what we know about biology and evolution, for an organism to jump to another branch of the phylogenetic family tree. Asking for evidence for prokaryotes jumping into the eukaryotic lineage is like asking for evidence of a dog giving birth to a cat. It's completely absurd and evolution would be demolished, not supported, by such an idea.
 
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verysincere

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Just as Adam and Eve were made from scratch for the task of reproducing all of mankind. Just as it reads. :thumbsup:


The biologists will shred the scientific errors of your post so I'm fine fielding the task of dealing with your errors from the scriptures.

1) No. The Bible says NOTHING to indicate that Adam and Eve were "made from scratch". You have confused TRADITIONS about the Bible with what the Bible actually says.

2) Genesis 2:7 says that Adam's ULTIMATE origin (as with all of the animals, which is stated in other passages) was in "the dust of the ground". The text says nothing about the PROXIMATE origins of mankind.

Genesis 2:7 describes abiogenesis: life from non-living ingredients (the soil). [Incidentally, "the dust of the ground" and "primordial soup" only differ in that "dust of the ground" doesn't happen to mention that water was also involved as an ingredient in living things. But even plenty of rocks and minerals have water in them, often even expressed in their chemical formula as part of the notation. Anyway, I always find it humorous that many of my Christian brethren fear "primordial soup" but not "dust of the ground". So I tell them, "Just take the Bible's dust of the ground, add some water, and stir. Then you have primordial soup, ready to be used as an ingredients source for all life.]

3) Genesis 2:7 describes the ultimate source (dust of the ground, that is, the basic chemical elements) and the final end product (humans) but it doesn't tell us how many and the nature of the intermediate steps and processes. Tradition tells you that HADAM was made "from scratch" but that is an assumption that "absence of evidence is evidence of absence", a popular logical fallacy. So Genesis 2:7 not only explicitly describes abiogenesis, it certainly allows for evolutionary processes.

4) I've always enjoyed telling students that when someone defends their view with "Just as the text reads", pay special attention because they are most likely adding things that the text does NOT "read". The phrase usually implies, "OK, I'm going to insert my favorite tradition here, and to help it along I will pretend that it is 'obviously' to be found within the text, even though it isn't."

Now I'm trying to be hard on you with #4. I made that same mistake for MANY years. I simply adopted the cherished traditions of my church and peers. It is SO EASY to do that we often fail to realize that we are doing it! (Even while we declare proudly, "Sola scriptura!") Indeed, I'm ashamed to admit that I let tradition dictate much of my hermeneutics for a very long time. Now I almost always remind myself before attempting exegesis of a text, "What does the text ACTUALLY say and what traditions have I always inserted here?"

I have been personally guilty of inserting my favorite traditions into my interpretation of the Biblical text. So join the club! It is a foible of the human condition. And it takes real work to "purify" our bible study methods to where we push aside our man-made traditions ABOUT the Bible and allow it to speak for itself.

.
 
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verysincere

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If the Bible says that animals can change their diet, then you loose.
Nylon is created from air, water, and coal.


As I prophesied, I "loosed" [sic] already! [Yes. LOL.]


(And by the way, just for the record, bacteria are not animals. However, I've known some people who are parasites.)
.
 
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SkyWriting

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No. One cell carries all the DNA for one cell. Unless you mean reproductive cells like eggs and sperm. In which case you're still wrong. They carry half the DNA needed for a person.

"Every human being begins life as a single cell"

So if two creatures share a common ancestor, they're the same kind?

The parent is the Kind.


More seriously though, bacteria are not animals.

Until 200 years ago, they were considered animals.



Well it's actually created from chemicals extracted from coal, water, air, petroleum, natural gas, and agricultural by-products.

Sounds somewhat digestible.
 
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SkyWriting

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And by the way, just for the record, bacteria are not animals.
.

You know very well that was decided in 1866. Long after the Bible writers stopped updating the scriptures with modern terminology.

However, I've known some people who are parasites.

Don't project.
 
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Guy1

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"Every human being begins life as a single cell.

I misunderstood what you were saying, and I apologize.


The parent is the Kind.

Right. That's what you want to call it. And can it's offspring split into two different groups that eventually change to suit their new environments?




Until 200 years ago, they were considered animals.

Nobody even knew about them until 400 years ago. Sadly for you though, they're not considered animals these days.





Sounds somewhat digestible.


I wouldn't recommend eating any of those.
 
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verysincere

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You know very well that was decided in 1866.

But our discussion is taking place today. I fail to see your point.


Long after the Bible writers stopped updating the scriptures with modern terminology.


I'm baffled by that statement.

How did the Bible writers ever "update the scriptures with modern technology"?

1) What do you mean by "updating the scriptures"?

I'm simply being honest when I tell you that I have NEVER heard or read anything about the Biblical authors ever "updating their writings" in any way.

2) What do you mean by "modern technology" in this context?


.
 
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J

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I don't recall any Bible prophecies about bacteria someday evolving to digest nylon in a pond behind a Japanese factory.
What would happen if the bacteria did not have the ability to eat the nylon? "For dust you are, and to dust you shall return.” 21 "I saw a new heaven and a new earth. The first heaven and the first earth had disappeared" You can rest assured that God is going to clean up the mess that people have made out of His creation.
 
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Guy1

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What would happen if the bacteria did not have the ability to eat the nylon? "For dust you are, and to dust you shall return.” 21 "I saw a new heaven and a new earth. The first heaven and the first earth had disappeared" You can rest assured that God is going to clean up the mess that people have made out of His creation.

I missed the bit where they mentioned the nylon digesting bacteria.
 
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