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Atheism. What are your thoughts?

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Wiccan_Child

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Can you tell me how a rock mutates into a human?!?!

Even over a very looonnnnggg time!
Ah, so that's the direction you're scooting your goalpost in. Before I answer your question, I have one of my own: do you admit that you were wrong in your previous assertion (namely, that mutations have never ever improved a species)? Do you accept that complex species have been improved by mutation? Do you accept that macroevolution is a documented and observed phenomena?



So, to your question. How did a rock mutate into a human?

Short answer
It didn't.

You're being farcical, of course, portraying the real theory as something more fantastic - a rock turning into jelly, then reforming as a well-groomed man in a suit. Or maybe that's genuinely what you think scientists believe. But I like to assume that, when someone asks a question about science, they genuinely want to know if there's an answer, and if so, what that answer is. So:

Long answer
It didn't, and no one said it did. Rather, humans, like all species, evolved from a universal common ancestor that lived 3.5 billion years ago. The diversity of life we see today is a result of evolution by natural selection.

Humans are one of many species that live today. That's something no one denies. According to the theory of common descent, all species, including humans, are descended from a single common ancestor that lived 3.5 billion years ago. Over the aeons, this ancestral population divided and speciated, over and over, mutating and evolving to fit the myriad of ecological niches that it found (and, when these descendant species interacted, created).

Humans didn't evolve from rocks. Our species evolved from primate ancestors, and so on, back to this universal common ancestor. That's where evolution (or, more accurately, the theory of common descent) ends. It simply posits the existence of the universal common ancestor, and the subsequent evolution by natural selection, as an explanation (and a very good one) for the preponderance of evidence. Where that ancestor came from isn't explained by evolution. For that, we have another theory, this time rooted in palaeoclimatology, chemistry, and physics, more than biology, genetics, and population dynamics.

Your question is broad, so I've tried to give an all-round response. If there's anything more specific (or, indeed, general) you want to know, ask away. If you dispute anything, please, let's hammer it out.
 
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spiritualwarrior77

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Ah, so that's the direction you're scooting your goalpost in. Before I answer your question, I have one of my own: do you admit that you were wrong in your previous assertion (namely, that mutations have never ever improved a species)? Do you accept that complex species have been improved by mutation? Do you accept that macroevolution is a documented and observed phenomena?

I can't accept that complex species evolve through mutation, I'm sorry. If species mutated to grow arms, legs, eyeballs, etc. then wouldn't we see lots of animals around us halfway through their evolutionary development? All I see are perfectly functioning species, complete in and of themselves!

So, to your question. How did a rock mutate into a human?

Short answer
It didn't.

I'm not being farcical. Correct me if I'm wrong but the accepted belief as to how humans got here is that there was a Big Bang, matter cooled to form the Earth (a rock essentially) and from that simple organisms emerged which became more and more complex over time eventually producing humans. Right?

What I want to know is how even a simple cell (which is incredibly complex in and of itself) came from inert matter?

And why it bothered at all.
 
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spiritualwarrior77

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I can't accept that complex species evolve through mutation, I'm sorry. If species mutated to grow arms, legs, eyeballs, etc. then wouldn't we see lots of animals around us halfway through their evolutionary development?

No, you wouldn't, and the theory of Evolution doesn't claim anything remotely like that.

Walking fish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What you see are features that are useful for whatever has them. The walking fish must find its limbs useful. However, to us and our evolutionary history, those features seem "half-evolved", but only because our distant ancestors had similar features.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Wiccan_Child

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I can't accept that complex species evolve through mutation, I'm sorry. If species mutated to grow arms, legs, eyeballs, etc. then wouldn't we see lots of animals around us halfway through their evolutionary development? All I see are perfectly functioning species, complete in and of themselves!
Exactly! That's how evolution works. Evolution doesn't work in fractions - each intermediary has to be an improvement, however gradual. Darwin said it himself:

"To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree. Yet reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if any variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real. How a nerve comes to be sensitive to light, hardly concerns us more than how life itself first originated; but I may remark that several facts make me suspect that any sensitive nerve may be rendered sensitive to light, and likewise to those coarser vibrations of the air which produce sound." - Source.

In essence, Darwin himself acknowledge the objection that it seems impossible to our imagination that the eye could have evolved. But, small variations that each confer a benefit to the host can accumulate over time.

Take, for instance, the eye. How could that possibly evolve through small, incremental steps?

humane7.jpg


A small patch of photosensitive cells. A small dent, a minor variation, confers a great benefit: you can see the direction of light. A deeper pit with a lip focuses the light. A closed pit filled with fluid keeps its shape and focuses further. Altering the fluid to act as a hardened lens, muscles to move it, vary the cells to detect different wavelengths of light, etc, are all small variations that could randomly arise in some offpsring or other, but confer a great advantage.

Ah, but you asked for real examples of creatures with half an eye. Well, as you can see, we didn't evolve literally half an eye. Before aniotes split into saurids and synapsids (roughly, the reptiles and mammals), they would have had a primitive eye, and after the split each group would have mutated that eye in different ways. So, we should see whole taxa with different eyes that come from one stage or another, but developed in a different way after that, or simply stayed the same.

And that's exactly what we do see. We see snails with the simple pit-eye, we see zoo-plankton with photosensitive patches, we see we see cuttlefish with an eye that seems a step beyond ours - they can detect the polarisation of light. How can they do such a thing, through a simple series of mutations? Easy: make the iris W-shaped, and you get polarisation-vision. A simple mutation that caused the deformation of the iris, but which conferred a benefit.

4158906098_86c969576a_z.jpg


Remember, it's not a progression. It's a branching tree. We start with the simplest eye, and go left, right, and centre. Our eye went on one path, but it's not the only path, and species have evolved a myriad of different solutions to get better vision.

I'm not being farcical. Correct me if I'm wrong but the accepted belief as to how humans got here is that there was a Big Bang, matter cooled to form the Earth (a rock essentially) and from that simple organisms emerged which became more and more complex over time eventually producing humans. Right?
More or less.

What I want to know is how even a simple cell (which is incredibly complex in and of itself) came from inert matter?

And why it bothered at all.
As I said, the origin of the universal common ancestor isn't actually part of evolution, since the veracity doesn't depend on it - God himself could have created it, for all it matters to evolution.

The prevailing explanation for the origin of the universal common ancestor is the theory of abiogenesis. In a nutshell, the early conditions of the Earth were conducive to produce, from simple molecules (H[sub]2[/sub], O[sub]2[/sub]), more complex molecules (ammonia, nitrate, methane, etc). These will spontaneously come together to form yet more complex molecules, like lipids and amino acids. Hydrophobic lipids come together under electrostatic repulsion to form a membrane, a bubble call a micelle. This is porous to monomers, which also form quite redily on their own, and so the micelle is drifting through a broth of monomers and other organic chemicals. Monomers can collide and form chains of monomers, called polymers. But if a polymer forms inside a micelle, it's stuck - it's now too big to get out.

Now, what if one such polymer, randomly assembled, interacts with other monomers? Maybe it can unzip them, or preferentially attracts some but not others and joins to them. Maybe it can replicate: each polymer binds with its opposite, forming a 'ladder', which then splits when mechanical motion gets too strong, and you have two copies. This is just one way in which a polymer could replicate (the details, for now, aren't important, though we can go into it later if you want).

So, if you have a micelle with this self-replicating polymer inside it, it will have lots of monomers drifting in and out of the micelle with which to create new copies of itself. Micelles 'collect' new lipid molecules, getting bigger and bigger, not as a bubble, but as a sort of branching tree or coral shape, and mechanical motion splits that in two, creating new micelles, each filled with these self-replicating polymers.

And this is the very beginnings of evolution, as this imperfect replication is the foot in the door natural selection needs to cause the better copies to copy lots and lots (that's why they're better, in terms of replication). From there, you have your most basic cell, and, potentially, the very first life form.
 
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Mling

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I can't accept that complex species evolve through mutation, I'm sorry. If species mutated to grow arms, legs, eyeballs, etc. then wouldn't we see lots of animals around us halfway through their evolutionary development? All I see are perfectly functioning species, complete in and of themselves!



I'm not being farcical. Correct me if I'm wrong but the accepted belief as to how humans got here is that there was a Big Bang, matter cooled to form the Earth (a rock essentially) and from that simple organisms emerged which became more and more complex over time eventually producing humans. Right?

What I want to know is how even a simple cell (which is incredibly complex in and of itself) came from inert matter?

And why it bothered at all.

Part of the reason that your question isn't being answered to your satisfaction is the the people here are talking about evolution--which describes how life changed to fit different ecological niches. The question you're asking is about a topic called abiogenesis (the original creation of life), which is a completely different thing.

Beyond that, you're not *going* to get an answer that satisfies, because scientists freely and openly acknowledge that we don't know yet how life started--though they're working on figuring it out, and are getting very close.

We are pretty sure about the broad type of thing it must have been though. It would have started with the creation of a molecule (or more than one) that was self-replicating. Through simple, mechanical processes, it would attract other molecules to it, and they would form chains, or maybe networks.

This isn't life--it would probably be simpler and weaker than a magnet, and working on similar principles.


So now the situation is that there's an ocean filled with lots of random molecules, and some of those molecules have a tendency to link together.

Eventually, the chain breaks and now there are two chains, each collecting other molecules that fit it. Again, imagine (and this isn't *literally* true, but is good visual approximation) an ocean filled with random stuff, and few things that happen to be magnetic. They're going to end up clustered together, with more and more things attached to them, eventually becoming unwieldy and breaking up, maybe rejoining, maybe just floating apart...)

Add in mutations. Occasionally, a molecule is going to latch on that isn't exactly.the same, bit is close enough. This is important, because our little proto-DNA has no way to be self-correcting. Now it's attracting this new thing. As this happens to different chains, you start getting different molecules with different traits which will attract molecules in different ways.

Ones which are very strong might attract lots of molecules, but not break, so there aren't many of them. Some that break a lot might not ever form chains at all. In the middle, there are ones that break occasionally but not too often, so they end up with a bunch of true chains floating around.

This continues for a while (a long while) until the loose, floating molecules in the ocean start becoming rare. Now the game just changed. Strongly attracting the molecules and breaking often enough but not too often isn't enough, because there isn't anything around to attract.

But what if...say... One of these chains happens to be made of molecules that change the environment around them. Say, they make the water a little acidic. It's possible that this could break apart the chains around it, and then *those* molecules would be attracted to it.

A chain like that could become dominant for a while, because it would go around breaking up the other chains. Maybe other aggressive sorts happened first, but something like this must have happened at some point, because the obvious defence against it *did* happen.

A chain that exuded something that formed a skin around it would not be vulnerable to the aggressive chain (for now). Now we have a proto-cell.

Of course, if that aggressive one eventually developed a pointy end and was able to pierce the skin and get its acid inside, then the cells would start becoming more rare again...until a different chain, or one of the proto cells develops some other characteristic that changes.the game again.

(A really neat trick would be if the pointy one developed the ability to poke through the skin of the other, and then shot *pieces of itself* into the cell instead of.acid) If the right bits got in, it could alter how the cell replicated, and make more of the aggressive chain instead of more of itself. Of course, that's well on its way to becoming a virus.)

I describe this as if the give and take between aggressive and defensive characteristics is inevitable, and it's not obvious why it should be. Couldn't one just take over? Like, The acid one becomes dominant, but nothing accidentally develops a skin in time to betable to stop its takeover?

It could have happened, but then, where would it lead? You'd have all the oceans in the world filled with chains that exude acid (or whatever) and no free-floating molecules and nothing else.

In our world today, this would mean world-wide extinction, but the important thing to remember is that these things werent alive, so they could have hung out like this for a very long time, never dying. But as they bump into each other and other things, they'd get damaged, break, recombine, and eventually, more mutations would start up again. Eventually, *something* would happen that challenged the monoculture, by sheer virtue of the fact that we're talking about billions and trillions of things happening at one time, over and over again, possibly for centuries. Whatever happened might have had a one in a billion chance of happening, but it only had to happen once. There are lots of "things" happening in the world. Things that have a one in a billion chance of happening happen all the time.

So, either smoothly, or in fits and starts, we have the beginnings of an arms race, and here it gets very difficult to talk about it without using anthropomorphic language because these utterly lifeless things are starting to act in ways that look like...well, like they're acting! Like.they are pursuing goals. But they aren't. They're still random chains of molecules that happen to attract more molecules, and.it just so happens that the ones which attract them in certain ways happen to become more common until something else counters it.

But I hope you can see where this is going: the chains keep changing, according to what happpens to keep them going. Points get pointier, skin gets thicker. One develops a method of propulsion (something like cilia, maybe?) and now everybody needs it.

Eventually, the ones that survive best are the ones that join together in clumps. Maybe one develops.the ability to take energy from the sun and becomes the first chloroplast. Then some of those wriggle their way into other cells, and start existing only as a part of a greater system--the chloroplast is protected by the skin of.the cell, and now the greater system has the ability to use sunlight--algae, then later, plants.

At some point, and how this could possibly happen is not clear, the ones that survive best are the ones that really *can* take go oriented actions. They not only have propulsion, they can speed up when either predator or prey is near.

Out of that very limited sort of awareness, could grow more and more. It doesn't just run at prey, it can predict what it will do. It doesn't just avoid predators, it actively hides.

And now we're starting to see things that most people would call life, and that is where abiogenesis ends and evolution begins.

It's also important to keep in mind that through all of this, there were neverany goals. It isn't somehow "better" to have acquired more useful changes than something else, and nothing compelled every member of a "species" to be changed in ways that had been beneficial to others.

Some of those chloroplast-containing cells clumped together and developed cell walls and became plants, but lots of others have stayed just as they were--algae still exists.

And there's more to say, but that's as much smart-phone writinv as i can handle right now.
 
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Davian

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<snip>
"Natural" and "supernatural" are slippery words. How does one precisely define what's natural and what's supernatural? Jesus healed a paralyzed man and that man immediately got up and walked away; most people call that a story of the supernatural. On the other hand, there have been plenty of cases in modern times where paralyzed people spontaneously recovered, so are all such cases supernatural, or are they natural. If a person has been paralyzed for years, their muscles will be shrunken and deformed, and it will take months or years of therapy before they can even walk. Yet there have been cases of claimed miracles, such as that of Rita Klaus, wherein a person healed from paralysis was restored to perfect health in minutes. Klaus was also blind, had her ligaments cut, had some of her bones removed or warped, yet all the deformities vanished overnight. Was this supernatural? I've already recommended one book about research into miraculous healing. Another one is Randy Sullivan's The Miracle Detective. Both of them include the evidence for Klaus' case.
Can you provide a testable definition for 'supernatural'?
If we were to expand the discussion beyond miraculous healing of medical issues, there are plenty of other events that call out for explanation. Jakob Lorber was a teacher in Austria in the mid-19th century who, at one point, heard a voice talking to him, claiming to be the voice of Jesus Christ. The voice told Lorber to write down what it said, and Lorber did so for the next 24 years, producing thousands of pages of material. Among other things, the resulting work contains a great deal of scientific findings which were unknown in Lorber's lifetime, but which are now known to be true. I can't see any explanation for such a phenomenon that doesn't involve the supernatural.
I had some time while traveling yesterday to look this up. One of the links off of the wiki page on him provided this:

www.JakobLorber.com

From Lorbors' writings:
  • A hole with a 180 mile large opening functions as a mouth and reaches from the North Pole through the center of the earth to the South Pole (anus). In another section of the writing this hole is described as only 20-30 miles.[7]
  • The earth is turning because her defecations are being disposed through an intestine in the form of a snail.[7]
  • The North Pole and South Pole cannot be reached by mankind.[7]
  • Birds fly similar to a gas balloon with the help of hydrogen.[8]
  • The planet Mars has no moons.[9]
  • The front of the moon consists of a foam like material.[9]
  • On the back of the moon, people, plants and animals are living (including water animals, moon sheep and birds). There are rivers and lakes and when the snow melts the moon floods.[9]
I can see reasons why, supernatural or not, some might be hesitant to take Lorbor's writings at face value. Do you, Alex?
 
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Diane_Windsor

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Atheist Alan,

My question is about morality. Cleopatra murdered members of her own family to become Queen of Egypt, but do her chosen means to consolidate her power "evil"? Was she an "evil" person? The same question applies to Julius Caesar, and numerous other leaders throughout history. A Christian can validly hold the opinion that Cleopatra's means were evil because they can cite the teachings of Jesus who explicitly taught to love thy neighbor as thyself. I guess it boils down to what is "good/right" and what is "evil/wrong" which of course is a question that philosophers have wrestled with since the dawn of time. So what is your view of "good" and "evil"?
 
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Tucansam93

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For some reason, christians/theist get uncomfortable when presented with the fact that there are good people who don't need their virtues from a holy book. Or a belief in a god.

I am a Christian and I don't get uncomfortable at all. I think God loves when anyone performs kind acts. He doesn't hate atheists either or "damn the nonbelievers". Their disbelief in God just separates them from Him. The reason why some Christians get uncomfortable is because, in my opinion, they just don't open the Bible or read about what Christianity really means.
 
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spiritualwarrior77

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Part of the reason that your question isn't being answered to your satisfaction is the the people here are talking about evolution--which describes how life changed to fit different ecological niches. The question you're asking is about a topic called abiogenesis (the original creation of life), which is a completely different thing.

Beyond that, you're not *going* to get an answer that satisfies, because scientists freely and openly acknowledge that we don't know yet how life started--though they're working on figuring it out, and are getting very close.

We are pretty sure about the broad type of thing it must have been though. It would have started with the creation of a molecule (or more than one) that was self-replicating. Through simple, mechanical processes, it would attract other molecules to it, and they would form chains, or maybe networks.

This isn't life--it would probably be simpler and weaker than a magnet, and working on similar principles.


So now the situation is that there's an ocean filled with lots of random molecules, and some of those molecules have a tendency to link together.

Eventually, the chain breaks and now there are two chains, each collecting other molecules that fit it. Again, imagine (and this isn't *literally* true, but is good visual approximation) an ocean filled with random stuff, and few things that happen to be magnetic. They're going to end up clustered together, with more and more things attached to them, eventually becoming unwieldy and breaking up, maybe rejoining, maybe just floating apart...)

Add in mutations. Occasionally, a molecule is going to latch on that isn't exactly.the same, bit is close enough. This is important, because our little proto-DNA has no way to be self-correcting. Now it's attracting this new thing. As this happens to different chains, you start getting different molecules with different traits which will attract molecules in different ways.

Ones which are very strong might attract lots of molecules, but not break, so there aren't many of them. Some that break a lot might not ever form chains at all. In the middle, there are ones that break occasionally but not too often, so they end up with a bunch of true chains floating around.

This continues for a while (a long while) until the loose, floating molecules in the ocean start becoming rare. Now the game just changed. Strongly attracting the molecules and breaking often enough but not too often isn't enough, because there isn't anything around to attract.

But what if...say... One of these chains happens to be made of molecules that change the environment around them. Say, they make the water a little acidic. It's possible that this could break apart the chains around it, and then *those* molecules would be attracted to it.

A chain like that could become dominant for a while, because it would go around breaking up the other chains. Maybe other aggressive sorts happened first, but something like this must have happened at some point, because the obvious defence against it *did* happen.

A chain that exuded something that formed a skin around it would not be vulnerable to the aggressive chain (for now). Now we have a proto-cell.

Of course, if that aggressive one eventually developed a pointy end and was able to pierce the skin and get its acid inside, then the cells would start becoming more rare again...until a different chain, or one of the proto cells develops some other characteristic that changes.the game again.

(A really neat trick would be if the pointy one developed the ability to poke through the skin of the other, and then shot *pieces of itself* into the cell instead of.acid) If the right bits got in, it could alter how the cell replicated, and make more of the aggressive chain instead of more of itself. Of course, that's well on its way to becoming a virus.)

I describe this as if the give and take between aggressive and defensive characteristics is inevitable, and it's not obvious why it should be. Couldn't one just take over? Like, The acid one becomes dominant, but nothing accidentally develops a skin in time to betable to stop its takeover?

It could have happened, but then, where would it lead? You'd have all the oceans in the world filled with chains that exude acid (or whatever) and no free-floating molecules and nothing else.

In our world today, this would mean world-wide extinction, but the important thing to remember is that these things werent alive, so they could have hung out like this for a very long time, never dying. But as they bump into each other and other things, they'd get damaged, break, recombine, and eventually, more mutations would start up again. Eventually, *something* would happen that challenged the monoculture, by sheer virtue of the fact that we're talking about billions and trillions of things happening at one time, over and over again, possibly for centuries. Whatever happened might have had a one in a billion chance of happening, but it only had to happen once. There are lots of "things" happening in the world. Things that have a one in a billion chance of happening happen all the time.

So, either smoothly, or in fits and starts, we have the beginnings of an arms race, and here it gets very difficult to talk about it without using anthropomorphic language because these utterly lifeless things are starting to act in ways that look like...well, like they're acting! Like.they are pursuing goals. But they aren't. They're still random chains of molecules that happen to attract more molecules, and.it just so happens that the ones which attract them in certain ways happen to become more common until something else counters it.

But I hope you can see where this is going: the chains keep changing, according to what happpens to keep them going. Points get pointier, skin gets thicker. One develops a method of propulsion (something like cilia, maybe?) and now everybody needs it.

Eventually, the ones that survive best are the ones that join together in clumps. Maybe one develops.the ability to take energy from the sun and becomes the first chloroplast. Then some of those wriggle their way into other cells, and start existing only as a part of a greater system--the chloroplast is protected by the skin of.the cell, and now the greater system has the ability to use sunlight--algae, then later, plants.

At some point, and how this could possibly happen is not clear, the ones that survive best are the ones that really *can* take go oriented actions. They not only have propulsion, they can speed up when either predator or prey is near.

Out of that very limited sort of awareness, could grow more and more. It doesn't just run at prey, it can predict what it will do. It doesn't just avoid predators, it actively hides.

And now we're starting to see things that most people would call life, and that is where abiogenesis ends and evolution begins.

It's also important to keep in mind that through all of this, there were neverany goals. It isn't somehow "better" to have acquired more useful changes than something else, and nothing compelled every member of a "species" to be changed in ways that had been beneficial to others.

Some of those chloroplast-containing cells clumped together and developed cell walls and became plants, but lots of others have stayed just as they were--algae still exists.

And there's more to say, but that's as much smart-phone writinv as i can handle right now.

Wow. Kudos for writing all that on a smartphone :thumbsup:
Your explanation certainly sounds plausible and to be honest I'm not in a position to argue. I'm not a scientist and can't argue the finer points (if you want to discuss 'deep politics' however, then I'm your man!) :)

For me what it boils down to is this:
A great design denotes a great designer (in my book). I know I'm busting out the old cliches but this very much rings true for me.
We can argue evolution vs. creationism, atheism vs. theism etc. till we're blue in the face but at the end of the day it comes down to belief.

For me, I believe in God because I have seen lives (some extremely wretched and down-right evil) transformed by the power of Jesus Christ. This REALLY got my attention and thus I became a Christian. There were other reasons (like some of the uncanny Bible prophecies) but that was the main one. I have since experienced the change in me that many other belief systems I tried failed to bring about.

Intelligence is a great gift but it can blind us to the bleeding obvious sometimes and can be a substitute for the heart (which possesses way more intelligence). Once you felt the power of Christ, then all else becomes hot air.

Just my opinion, for what it's worth :)
 
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Wow. Kudos for writing all that on a smartphone :thumbsup:
Your explanation certainly sounds plausible and to be honest I'm not in a position to argue. I'm not a scientist and can't argue the finer points (if you want to discuss 'deep politics' however, then I'm your man!) :)

For me what it boils down to is this:
A great design denotes a great designer (in my book). I know I'm busting out the old cliches but this very much rings true for me.
We can argue evolution vs. creationism, atheism vs. theism etc. till we're blue in the face but at the end of the day it comes down to belief.

Certain things might rely on belief, but this is not one of them, as long as its handled carefully. Questions about the material world come down to evidence, not belief.

The main proponent of string theory, for example, was once described in an article as a "believer" in string theory, and he considered it a vile insult. He doesn't "believe" in string theory any more than I "believe" anything I wrote above. Science, done well, doesn't involve belief. You examine what looks possible, plausible, likely. If something is supported by evidence, you continue examining and look for flaws. If there are flaws in the idea, you examine them carefully and try to figure out what's wrong and why, and what the truth is. If it turns out that an idea is wrong, you discard it.

The proponent of string theory (who's name I can't remember) responded to with something to the effect of "I don't believe in string theory. I consider it the most useful way to examine these questions, and I believe that examining the world through the lens of string theory will result in a better understanding of physics. If that understanding reveals that string theory iswrong, then we will still know more than we did before, and I will still consider that success."

Any religious belief worth its salt will be able to survive alongside other truths. There's no reason to reject evidence, science, or knowledge for the sake of "belief," unless your goal is to maintain beliefs which contradict the truth, and thus are false.

For me, I believe in God because I have seen lives (some extremely wretched and down-right evil) transformed by the power of Jesus Christ. This REALLY got my attention and thus I became a Christian. There were other reasons (like some of the uncanny Bible prophecies) but that was the main one. I have since experienced the change in me that many other belief systems I tried failed to bring about.

I have opinions about that, but it's fairly irrelevant to questions about science and evolution (or abiogenesis). There's no reason why a god who could reform the people you know would be challenged by people learning and gaining knowledge.

Intelligence is a great gift but it can blind us to the bleeding obvious sometimes and can be a substitute for the heart (which possesses way more intelligence). Once you felt the power of Christ, then all else becomes hot air.

Just my opinion, for what it's worth :)

I go back and forth on whether I believe in intelligence. Or, if I do...I like Einstein's explanation for it: "Everybody is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spend its life thinking it's stupid."

Again, I don't think any god that existed could be contradicted by scientific truths, and I think that the only religious beliefs worth having are the ones that are able to coincide with proven facts. Not that they have to be proven by facts, but that they aren't worth much if they can be disproven.
 
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Tucansam93

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I have a question about a statement you made.

"Again, I don't think any god that existed could be contradicted by scientific truths, and I think that the only religious beliefs worth having are the ones that are able to coincide with proven facts. Not that they have to be proven by facts, but that they aren't worth much if they can be disproven."

Are there any facts that coincide with any religion? I always come to the point that religion and science are totally separate things and many scientists also treat it that way.
 
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KCfromNC

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The first link may as well be written in Swahili. In fact I probably would have understood it better if it had been.

The second talks about a genetically engineered protein. We are talking about natural mutation. GE don't count.

It's a copy of a protein which occurred naturally as a result of the mutation described in the first link. It certainly does count.
 
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drjean

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To me it's proof of the Supreme Being in that His Word has yet to be proven wrong in any detail... over 2000 years worth of trying by experts. (Non-expert rambling not accepted.) Surely if any one thing had been proven false, those who refuse to believe in said LORD GOD would do nothing but tout it, imo.

My God, His Word, says that every creature has within itself the knowledge of the Creator. Those are my thoughts too. :)
 
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David Jerome

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I only agree with the Richard Dawkins aproach to atheism, which is aknowleging that there's no evidence or objective reason to believe in a god, but at the same, you can't be 100% sure that there absolutely isn't one.

Absolute declarations that one doesn't exist, is dumb.
 
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Diane_Windsor

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I only agree with the Richard Dawkins aproach to atheism, which is aknowleging that there's no evidence or objective reason to believe in a god, but at the same, you can't be 100% sure that there absolutely isn't one.

Source please?
 
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Wiccan_Child

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To me it's proof of the Supreme Being in that His Word has yet to be proven wrong in any detail... over 2000 years worth of trying by experts. (Non-expert rambling not accepted.) Surely if any one thing had been proven false, those who refuse to believe in said LORD GOD would do nothing but tout it, imo.
Given the width and breadth of what 'his word' actually is, you'll have to be more specific. A literal view of Genesis has been disproven. If you take a metaphorical view, it hasn't.
 
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Davian

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To me it's proof of the Supreme Being in that His Word has yet to be proven wrong in any detail... over 2000 years worth of trying by experts. (Non-expert rambling not accepted.) Surely if any one thing had been proven false, those who refuse to believe in said LORD GOD would do nothing but tout it, imo.

My God, His Word, says that every creature has within itself the knowledge of the Creator. Those are my thoughts too. :)

I disagree with your approach. Rather that 'proven wrong', I would ask you for details about this "Supreme Being" that have been shown to be *right*.
 
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