"Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee" - what day is that?

[StormHawk]

Quote is from Hebrew 1:5.

Does it refer to Jesus' conception, physical birth, anointing or resurrection?

 

[Fireinfolding]

Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,


Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Theres a good post on this in Unorthodox theology which was started by Gods Word, you could probrobly run it there and as there was alot of back and forths on it, I see it speaking of His resurrection. Theres many other verses, unfortunately my word pad takes them and throws all these codes between them and takes forever to delete out. But they are there on that post I am telling you about.

At least there was some heavy back and forth on it, and what folks found as wrinkles in the others account were explained there as much as possible. Not all agreed ofcourse, but if your interested might be worth a look, I'll try looking for it for you.

 

[StormHawk]

Thanks, those verses fit with: "church of the firstborn" (Heb. 12:23), who is Jesus, who "hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3)

Some will contend it is his conception or birth arguing from John 1:14:
the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,)"
and saying that "begotten" (monogenes) means only born / conception.

I'm still undecided.

p.s. I can't find the thread you refer to.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Here I found it StormHawk

http://www.christianforums.com/t7605535/

This thread has alot of good knowledgeable folks on it and this might help you, even among these there was some disagreements, but really worth a read.

 

[StormHawk]

I havn't read through it yet but would you say that Jesus was like a seed planted in the earth as a womb, from which he was born (begotten) 3 days later?

 

[Fireinfolding]

I wouldnt say (personally). I just prefer just posting script, for the most part because fights break out around this topic, and how one words something and all.

Theres certain topics I keep what I think to myself.

I've just learn to do that around here lol

(saves many a hassle trust me) lol

 

[Fireinfolding]

Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,


Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning,the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

I'll add this in (to the above)

Prov 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

Heb 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou arta priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

The last one says, for if he were on earth he would not be a preist might be key as well.

And if you look here...notice "IN THAT"

Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee

And the same is used here (but in this way in relation to being made a high preist)

Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

And again...

Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest


Just wanted to add those in, however he first descended before ascending so was before all things as we all know

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Quote is from Hebrew 1:5.

Does it refer to Jesus' conception, physical birth, anointing or resurrection?

The Word of God is the only begotten of Son of God, which has been with the Father since the very beginning. For by the Word of God all things were created both in heaven and on earth.

But at what point did God himself declare the Son in Jesus?

I believe it was when Jesus recieved the anointing by the Spirit of God which came down in a bodily shape like a dove, and lighting upon Jesus.

God himself declared from heaven "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

John the baptist also confirmed this in Jesus, as he was also told by God.

Romans 1:4
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Alot of people look at the last part of that verse, but miss the first part.

This anointing from above by God gave Jesus the power by way of God's Word and Spirit dwelling in Jesus.

Jesus himself also declared this truth in Luke 4:18;"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he has sent me to heal the broken hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised."

Jesus did not start his ministry until after he recieved that power from on High by way of God's Spirit lighting upon him. He did not start his miracles until after that anointing, by which works also testified and declared who he was, which Jesus also declared himself many times over that he was the Son of God, that Christ came out from God of heaven above.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Romans 1:4
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Alot of people look at the last part of that verse, but miss the first part.

And this is where we differ (though I will not contend with you because we drove each other batty the last time)

Declared to be with what by what? Both the first part of that verse and last go together

Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

And what is what (toward us who believe) according to what (when)?

Ephes 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

Ephes 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

That wouldnt exclude the spirit of holiness, in that the promise that he would not let his holy one see corruption which also pertains to being raised from the dead (verses David) even as they pointed out ( saw corruption) and whose grave was with them (pointing out David is dead and buried) unlike Jesus Christ (who was raised up)

Jesus is the answer to the question in proverbs where it speaks of his ascending and descending, and the question follows, what is HIS name and what is the name of HIS SON, IF thou can TELL, or declare it as he is declared in these things.

Doesnt mean he was not a Son before, but is declared so and is the first begotten OF THE DEAD, this day I have begotten thee in that he raised Him up.

Me and you never agreed here, but thats ok, Im never right and I can just deal with it better

 

[Fireinfolding]

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

And this is where we differ (though I will not contend with you because we drove each other batty the last time)

Declared to be with what by what? Both the first part of that verse and last go together

Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

And what is what (toward us who believe) according to what (when)?

Ephes 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

Ephes 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

That wouldnt exclude the spirit of holiness, in that the promise that he would not let his holy one see corruption which also pertains to being raised from the dead (verses David) even as they pointed out ( saw corruption) and whose grave was with them (pointing out David is dead and buried) unlike Jesus Christ (who was raised up)

Jesus is the answer to the question in proverbs where it speaks of his ascending and descending, and the question follows, what is HIS name and what is the name of HIS SON, IF thou can TELL, or declare it as he is declared in these things.

Doesnt mean he was not a Son before, but is declared so and is the first begotten OF THE DEAD, this day I have begotten thee in that he raised Him up.

Me and you never agreed here, but thats ok, Im never right and I can just deal with it better

You didn't drive me batty last time, it was your friend who started making accusations against me, and started with the name calling. I can disagree with others without calling them hateful names, as I know you can as well.

To me it is plain that God Himself spoke from heaven and declared that this was his Christ (Son)come down from heaven.

Jesus himself made this declaration(by the Spirit of Truth) that he was the Son of God(Christ) even before his death and resurrection.

Tell me Sis, by scripture when and how did God declare his Priests and Kings?

Is it not by anointing? Doesn't Christ mean anointed One of God?

Think about it Sis.

 

[Fireinfolding]

You didn't drive me batty last time, it was your friend who started making accusations against me, and started with the name calling. I can disagree with others without calling them hateful names, as I know you can as well.

To me it is plain that God Himself spoke from heaven and declared that this was his Christ (Son)come down from heaven.

Jesus himself made this declaration(by the Spirit of Truth) that he was the Son of God(Christ) even before his death and resurrection.

Tell me Sis, by scripture when and how did God declare his Priests and Kings?

Is it not by anointing? Doesn't Christ mean anointed One of God?

Think about it Sis.

Yeah he was driving me batty too (sorry about that) Im bad at confrontation.

I agree, thou art the Christ the SON of the living God.

But how would there be a comparison if the others can be made so without an oath but this one with an oath (and where is that found) and when?

Because it states if he were on earth he would not be a priest. And others were made preists without an oath (unlike Jesus Christ) and according to what order.

From his birth to death He holds the preemince. From first to last, Jesus was begotten by the Holy Ghost which was made of and sprang out of the seed of David. He was always the Word, both the Son of God but also the Son of man, but it speaks of His being begotten from the dead. He was to have preeminence in all things that way (in bring us to glory by Him). I believe this is seen in both the way he was born into this world and the same in respects to him being the first begotten of the dead (and who liveth forever) after the order (by the oath) of the greater by which all men swear by. All in between shows us the way in Him as well.

I mean we can go round and round, He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, yet was offered once to bear sins, and we can get all circular in the sense that (He was before all things) and God declares the beginning from the end even as Jesus is the beginning and the end and from which the end is declared (at a certain point in time). But how he is declared the Son of God (for our benefit) and through many witnesses (of the same) seems more in tune with him being begotten from the dead by His resurrection (which is central to the gospel itself). Not to mention where he is seated, the LORD saith to MY Lord sit where? And when? And the apostles point out David being a prophet seeing BEFORE spake specifically to the resurrection of Jesus Christ. And is the same question Jesus asked, them, IF then he is Davids son HOW then does David in the spirit call him Lord? And there was silence there, this is where the apostles come in (right there) and filled in the silence of that gap (David seeing before). All incluive of the Spirit of holiness, for God would not let his "holy one" see corruption (ir contrast with David) just as the apostles did there. Declared what when? The Son of God with power by that very same, this day I have begotten thee, the first begotten of the dead. The more I look the more I see its true.

Not denying the others just keeping in step with when he is declared so and by what, and how central His resurrection is to our faith, because if he wasnt raised our faith itself in vain, because he was delivered for our offense but he was raised for our justification, and you know all the rest.

I just come at it differently for this particular prophecy. Even as I would his birth INTO this world.

Know what I mean jelly bean?

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Declared to be the Son of God with power.

Concerning the body of Jesus, did not Christ say I have the power to lay it down, and I have the power to raise it up again?

Ecclesiastes 8:8
There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.

Micah 3:8
But truly I am full of power by the spirit of the LORD, and of judgment, and of might, to declare unto Jacob his transgression, and to Israel his sin.

Zechariah 4:6
Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

Matthew 10:1
And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
Mark 6:7
And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;
Luke 4:14
And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.
Luke 4:36
And they were all amazed, and spake among themselves, saying, What a word is this! for with authority and power he commandeth the unclean spirits, and they come out.
Romans 1:4
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Romans 15:19
Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
1 Corinthians 2:4
And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1 Corinthians 5:4
In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

He's got the power, He's got the power!

 

[Fireinfolding]

Just thought of this one, On the mount whe God spake and said this is my beloved Son and to listen to him, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again ((from)) the dead. Thats where the Son of man (the Son of God) is declared the Son of God (to the world) even though God just declare Him as such beforehand to His own disciples.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Declared to be the Son of God with power.

Concerning the body of Jesus, did not Christ say I have the power to lay it down, and I have the power to raise it up again?

Ecclesiastes 8:8
There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.

Micah 3:8
But truly I am full of power by the spirit of the LORD, and of judgment, and of might, to declare unto Jacob his transgression, and to Israel his sin.

Zechariah 4:6
Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

Matthew 10:1
And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
Mark 6:7
And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;
Luke 4:14
And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.
Luke 4:36
And they were all amazed, and spake among themselves, saying, What a word is this! for with authority and power he commandeth the unclean spirits, and they come out.
Romans 1:4
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Romans 15:19
Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
1 Corinthians 2:4
And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1 Corinthians 5:4
In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

He's got the power, He's got the power!

Yes, but in the context of Jesus being declared the Son of God (to the world) in the same BY the resurrection from the dead (thats How he is declared so to the world).

That which is by the power of God that effectually works in us would be the same working.

 

[x141]

The Jordan itself is a symbol, to which Jesus said, the act would fulfill all righteousness. The full measure of the act has no boundries/measurment other than what we put on it ourselves, here we add to and take away.

If we put our finger on something and say, this is God (speaking about what is present Truth to us indivdually) then here we stop, we build our city and we go no further. Before long, God becomes merchandise to us and we are in danger of selling dove's dung and ass's head.

Christ as a seed, sure. Another picture of Truth that as it grows inside us brings a kingdom to us, the realities of an increase that has no end.

I see to as well, both other parties (as of now), see the Truth as well.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

And by the authority and power God gave to His Son we see the works of God were manifest and also testified of who Jesus Christ was.

Psalm 78:32
For all this they sinned still, and believed not for his wondrous works.


John 10:25
Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

John 10:37
If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

John 10:38
But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.


John 14:10
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

John 14:11
Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.


Again the power of the anointing by way of the Spirit of God declared who He was, as did also His Words and His works.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Yes, but in the context of Jesus being declared the Son of God (to the world) in the same BY the resurrection from the dead (thats How he is declared so to the world).

That which is by the power of God that effectually works in us would be the same working.

Don't you think it was important to believe he was the Son of God before his death and resurrection?

 

[Fireinfolding]

They all blend together for me as well, but when they were speaking in acts they were speaking of His resurrection (as one man) from the dead (whom God hath made, and appointed both Lord and Christ) and to "that" (specifically I would be speaking) or to the one mediator between God and man (an event God had prepared before his people).

All others (though just as true) can be utilized (for us) to come to an understanding that as Christ died and we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection and so we ought to walk.

And so we catch on (even for ourselves) spiritually speaking (in our present) but I dont want to bypass a foundational truth, but I also wouldnt say the others are invalid, all can be true. Its just no other foundation can be laid save the one that is which is Christ Jesus. Even though we may leave behind the elementals, and not desiring to lay again and again the same one, on an open board, especially when we are speaking to at "what point" was he begotten. One might say before He come into the world, or another might say, when he was conceived by the Holy ghost, or another at baptism, or another (like me) in the context which it speaking "in that" he raised him up and in respects to being the first begotten of the dead (sitting at the right hand of the Father). Even though he was returning to the glory he had before the world began anyway.

Just different levels I suppose you can call it, but on these boards if you need to acknowledge it all, because if ya slip they'll smack ya

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Just thought of this one, On the mount whe God spake and said this is my beloved Son and to listen to him, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again ((from)) the dead. Thats where the Son of man (the Son of God) is declared the Son of God (to the world) even though God just declare Him as such beforehand to His own disciples.

Aha!, now the wheels are turnin.