Is Yeshua the Passover?

[Lulav]

I wondered why my Passover thread had been killed, please can we keep in line with the rules so we can continue this?

Butting in here.

Jesus was a first born. We receive blessing thru Him, so we actually receive the blessings of the first born, New Covenant. In the Tenakh, the blessings of the first born was the double portion inheritance.

Thru Jesus, the first born, we receive the adoption, and inherit eternal life, and inherit the kingdom of God. I have not done much study of our inheritance in the Messianic reign or the new heaven and new earth.

Qnts, no disrespect but why did you feel you had to butt in if you have not done much study on this? What you posted makes no sense, the blessings of the first born is the New Covenant?

That was why I asked Steve to flesh out his post, I'm sure he has so would like to see what he has to say.

 

[Steve Petersen]

IThat was why I asked Steve to flesh out his post, I'm sure he has so would like to see what he has to say.

Me Steve or some other Steve?

 

[Lulav]

Me Steve or some other Steve?

yup, you darling,

Originally Posted by Steve Petersen

There is also a tendency to equate the slaying of the Passover lamb with atonement for sin.

But sin offerings were not eaten by the offerer.

The nearest thing to the Passover lamb are the rules pertaining to peace offerings.
​

Could you flesh that out Steve? About the peace offering?

 

[Steve Petersen]

yup, you darling,

Originally Posted by Steve Petersen

There is also a tendency to equate the slaying of the Passover lamb with atonement for sin.
​

But sin offerings were not eaten by the offerer.

The nearest thing to the Passover lamb are the rules pertaining to peace offerings.
​

Could you flesh that out Steve? About the peace offering?

You mentioned something in one of your latest posts about the first born and that was why I asked. I don't really have anything to say about the firstborn.

I don't have my Chumash with me, but I did look at the various categories of sacrifices in the tables in the back and there are a limited number of sacrifices that may be eaten by the offerer.

Sin offerings were eaten by the priests only. These also were only for unintentional sins. You see how the Passover does not fit into this category. Hence the symbolic connection between the passover lamb and 'the lamb of God which takes away the sins of the world' cannot be made. as is often done at Messianic seders.

The peace offering seems to come the closest (in terms of who eats what) to the passover lamb than others.

 

[cupid dave]

As Passover draws neigh, we have been having a family squabble about like who gets to sit next to the King in the Kingdom. As Yeshua told Salome, it was up to the Father to decide. The other ten were upset with the two. Isn't that like what's going on here? (Matthew 20)

Levi and Judah want to be on either side of Yeshua while the other 10 are pushed out, not even in the running, according to them anyway. But Yeshua said it was not up to them, or their mother, or even himself, but for the Father to chose.

So should we really be still arguing the same old thing?

Now if Yeshua is the Passover lamb of G-d the one that Abraham said the Father would provide, isn't it also necessary if you partake of the body to be also circumcised?

In a recently closed thread this part was ignored by some as to the position of the Ger.

If a stranger (from another nation) wished to partake of the commemoration of the thankfulness of salvation from slavery, they needed to be circumcised (if male). Once circumcised did that not bind them to the people of Israel?

Those who participate in the remembrance of Salvation, wither from Egypt or from Sin (which Egypt represents) then shouldn't they be circumcised?

If partaking of the matzah of Passover which represent sinlessness, then one needs be circumcised.

What about the proselytites at the gate?


When a Gentile resolves to fulfill the Seven Universal Laws, his or her circumcision in unnecessary, then.is elevated. This person becomes one of the "Chasidei Umot Haolam" (Pious Ones of the Nations) and receives a share of the World to Come.

The Torah calls one who accepts the yoke of fulfilling the Seven Universal Laws a "Ger Toshav" (a Proselyte of the Gate).





Circumcision is not one of these seven.

[FONT='Arial-BoldMT','sans-serif'] [/font]

 

[cupid dave]

You mentioned something in one of your latest posts about the first born and that was why I asked. I don't really have anything to say about the firstborn.

I don't have my Chumash with me, but I did look at the various categories of sacrifices in the tables in the back and there are a limited number of sacrifices that may be eaten by the offerer.

Sin offerings were eaten by the priests only. These also were only for unintentional sins. You see how the Passover does not fit into this category. Hence the symbolic connection between the passover lamb and 'the lamb of God which takes away the sins of the world' cannot be made. as is often done at Messianic seders.

The peace offering seems to come the closest (in terms of who eats what) to the passover lamb than others.

hmmm...

What about the rest of that last sedar, wherein the wine is the blood of Christ, and the bread is his body.

It seems to suggest that he has made us all priests, doesn't it?



5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[Lulav]

You mentioned something in one of your latest posts about the first born and that was why I asked. I don't really have anything to say about the firstborn.

I don't have my Chumash with me, but I did look at the various categories of sacrifices in the tables in the back and there are a limited number of sacrifices that may be eaten by the offerer.

Sin offerings were eaten by the priests only. These also were only for unintentional sins. You see how the Passover does not fit into this category. Hence the symbolic connection between the passover lamb and 'the lamb of God which takes away the sins of the world' cannot be made. as is often done at Messianic seders.

The peace offering seems to come the closest (in terms of who eats what) to the passover lamb than others.

Nah, that was Qnts mentioning the first born, I still don't see what she meant.

Yes, I agree about the offerings and it not being a Passover sacrifice. But I do see a way this could be. Yeshua was sinless , thus the spotless goat, then the Father put the sins on him like the High Priest would have on the goat for Azazel. Thus two in one. This was a sacrifice for the whole nation. Could it be that since he could only be one sacrifice it was done at passover? Since Yom Kippur is not a pilgrimage festival

 

[Lulav]

hmmm...

What about the rest of that last sedar, wherein the wine is the blood of Christ, and the bread is his body.

It seems to suggest that he has made us all priests, doesn't it?



5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Hi Dave, just to let you know before someone else does, you are not allowed to teach or debate in here.

That out of the way, After re-reading this for probably the 40x (not now, over a period of years), I see that this was a comment made by John. These are not direct words from Yeshua. It is rather confusing though, the wording suggests that G-d and Yeshua's Father are not one and the same.

Also if we are priests unto G-d, which makes sense as priests are to serve G-d, how can we be kings too? A Kings job is to rule over the people but also to serve them. Can G-d be put into this category?

Oh, well I don't want to derail this thread so, perhaps another time?

 

[cupid dave]

Hi Dave, just to let you know before someone else does, you are not allowed to teach or debate in here.

That out of the way, After re-reading this for probably the 40x (not now, over a period of years), I see that this was a comment made by John. These are not direct words from Yeshua.


It is rather confusing though, the wording suggests that G-d and Yeshua's Father are not one and the same.

Also if we are priests unto G-d, which makes sense as priests are to serve G-d, how can we be kings too? A Kings job is to rule over the people but also to serve them. Can G-d be put into this category?

Oh, well I don't want to derail this thread so, perhaps another time?

It seems rather difficult to respond to someone who asks questions and at the same time says learning the answer would violate the rule of teaching.


Secondly, I have merely stated may take on why I understand the Jesus was the passover lamb, the sacrifice which Christians can eat, simply because Jesus, in his letter to the seven churches, (not John), said we ARE priests.

Last, without debate, take it or leave it, a priest is supposed to eat the sacrifice.
This was why Jesus told the followers that they must eat his fleash and drink his blood.
Remember?

Many many followers left him because of that.

John 6:56
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

 

[Lulav]

It seems rather difficult to respond to someone who asks questions and at the same time says learning the answer would violate the rule of teaching.

Yes, I guess it would. Forgive me but you are a Messianic Jew? Your icon choice was what prompted me to give you a fair warning before someone reported you, that's all. You can go change it in your User CP (control panel). Then look on the left hand side bar and scroll down to Edit your details, click on that and in the first section of Edit your details at the bottom of that section you will find the drop down menu to choose from Christian, Denomination Or Other Faith Icon Please choose your church, denomination or faith.

Secondly, I have merely stated may take on why I understand the Jesus was the passover lamb, the sacrifice which Christians can eat, simply because Jesus, in his letter to the seven churches, (not John), said we ARE priests.

Actually it was John who stated that, grammatically Yeshua could not be the subject and the object. I do understand your point though, thanks for giving it.

Last, without debate, take it or leave it, a priest is supposed to eat the sacrifice.
This was why Jesus told the followers that they must eat his fleash and drink his blood.
Remember?

Many many followers left him because of that.

John 6:56
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Yes, I understand certain sacrifices were to be eaten by the cohanim. Some could be shared with their families, some not. Some had to be eaten in the holy place, some were not to be eaten such as the peace offering which was a burnt offering.

However the Passover offering was to be slaughtered in the Temple but then given back to the worshiper and then roasted and shared with his entire family. These were not priests at all, these were from every tribe. The only condition was that all males that partook needed to be circumcised.

Also the Passover lamb did not need the offerer to place his hands on it and confess sins. All others besides this and the tithe and firstborn required this.

 

[cupid dave]

Yes, I understand certain sacrifices were to be eaten by the cohanim. Some could be shared with their families, some not. Some had to be eaten in the holy place, some were not to be eaten such as the peace offering which was a burnt offering.

1) However the Passover offering was to be slaughtered in the Temple but then given back to the worshiper and then roasted and shared with his entire family. These were not priests at all, these were from every tribe. The only condition was that all males that partook needed to be circumcised.

2) Also the Passover lamb did not need the offerer to place his hands on it and confess sins. All others besides this and the tithe and firstborn required this.

1) Jesus was slaughter in the temple when the High Priest ordained it to be so.

2) At the passover seder, Jesus WAS our High Priest, the one who with his own hands broke the bread.
He, himself, filled the Elijah Cup and passed it around for all to sip his blood:


Hebrews 5:10
Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

 

[mizzdy]

1) Jesus was slaughter in the temple when the High Priest ordained it to be so.

2) At the passover seder, Jesus WAS our High Priest, the one who with his own hands broke the bread.
He, himself, filled the Elijah Cup and passed it around for all to sip his blood:


Hebrews 5:10
Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

Yeshua was not slaughtered in any way at all. When He is called the Passover lamb it is an anti-type and not the real thing. In order for Him to have been the actually lamb He would have been slaughtered, impaled from one end to the other and placed on a fire then eaten.

shalom,
Mizz

 

[Lulav]

1) Jesus was slaughter in the temple when the High Priest ordained it to be so.

2) At the passover seder, Jesus WAS our High Priest, the one who with his own hands broke the bread.
He, himself, filled the Elijah Cup and passed it around for all to sip his blood:


Hebrews 5:10
Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

He was not killed in the temple, that would have been an unkosher sacrifice and would not have been tolerated by the worshipers gathered there.

 

[yedida]

As Passover draws neigh, we have been having a family squabble about like who gets to sit next to the King in the Kingdom. As Yeshua told Salome, it was up to the Father to decide. The other ten were upset with the two. Isn't that like what's going on here? (Matthew 20)

Levi and Judah want to be on either side of Yeshua while the other 10 are pushed out, not even in the running, according to them anyway. But Yeshua said it was not up to them, or their mother, or even himself, but for the Father to chose.

So should we really be still arguing the same old thing?

Now if Yeshua is the Passover lamb of G-d the one that Abraham said the Father would provide, isn't it also necessary if you partake of the body to be also circumcised?

In a recently closed thread this part was ignored by some as to the position of the Ger.

If a stranger (from another nation) wished to partake of the commemoration of the thankfulness of salvation from slavery, they needed to be circumcised (if male). Once circumcised did that not bind them to the people of Israel?

Those who participate in the remembrance of Salvation, wither from Egypt or from Sin (which Egypt represents) then shouldn't they be circumcised?

If partaking of the matzah of Passover which represent sinlessness, then one needs be circumcised.

It seems straight forwar to me: to become a full0fledged member of the Israelites and be allowed to partake of that first passover, the male and males in his household were to be circumciesed. I don't understand why this is so very hard to follow and obey. Becoming a child of the promise requred a sign and later a committment. It's just all so simple and easy. Perhaps it's simplicity is what the trouble is - people can't believe something so i=simply whould truly have any meaning.

 

[Lulav]

Maybe because a mikvah and some wine are more 'palatable'?

 

[annier]

Marc I realize there's no temple, as I said in the OP in the imagery of the NT writings we are taught that Yeshua is the lamb of G-d. He tells us that the Passover bread is his body which is sacrificed for us. He also tells us to 'do this' (keep the Passover, eat the unleavened bread) in remembrance of his sacrifice.

Something to consider...
Christ made an atonement/ reconcilliation for sin as our passover.

Ex 29:33 And they shall eat those things wherewith the atonement was made, to consecrate and to sanctify them:
but a stranger <02114> shall not eat thereof, because they are holy.


Who ARE THE STRANGERS HERE? And what is the distinctiveness of these strangers? I will embolden the points I think ring significant here.
02114 &#1512;&#1493;&#1494; zuwr zoor
a primitive root; v; {See TWOT on 541}
AV-stranger 45, strange 18, estranged 4, stranger + 0376 3, another 2, strange woman 2, gone away 1, fanners 1, another place 1; 77
1) to be strange, be a stranger
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to become estranged
1a2) strange, another, stranger, foreigner, an enemy (participle)
1a3) loathsome (of breath) (participle)
1a4) strange woman, prostitute, harlot (meton)
1b) (Niphal) to be estranged
1c) (Hophal) to be a stranger, be one alienated
I would like to put forth my thoughts on this for a moment.

ESTRANGEMENT, like unto the notion of the separation of married couples which legally termed estranged from each other.
Those which are ESTRANGED FROM THE PRIESTS HOUSEHOLD. JEW OR GENTILE, BOTH STRANGERS FROM THE HOLY FOOD.
SEE HERE.....
Ex 30:33 Whosoever compoundeth any like it, or whosoever putteth any of it upon a stranger <02114>, shall even be cut off from his people.
Le 22:10 There shall no stranger <02114> eat of the holy thing: a sojourner of the priest, or an hired servant, shall not eat of the holy thing.
Le 22:12 If the priest’s daughter also be married unto a stranger <02114>, she may not eat of an offering of the holy things.
Le 22:13 But if the priest’s daughter be a widow, or divorced, and have no child, and is returned unto her father’s house, as in her youth, she shall eat of her father’s meat: but there shall no stranger <02114> eat thereof.

Nu 3:10 And thou shalt appoint Aaron and his sons, and they shall wait on their priest’s office: and the stranger <02114> that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
Nu 3:38 But those that encamp before the tabernacle toward the east, even before the tabernacle of the congregation eastward, shall be Moses, and Aaron and his sons, keeping the charge of the sanctuary for the charge of the children of Israel; and the stranger <02114> that cometh nigh shall be put to death.

Nu 16:40 To be a memorial unto the children of Israel, that no stranger <02114>, which is not of the seed of Aaron, come near to offer incense before the LORD; that he be not as Korah, and as his company: as the LORD said to him by the hand of Moses.
Nu 18:4 And they shall be joined unto thee, and keep the charge of the tabernacle of the congregation, for all the service of the tabernacle: and a stranger <02114> shall not come nigh unto you.

Nu 18:7 Therefore thou and thy sons with thee shall keep your priest’s office for every thing of the altar, and within the vail; and ye shall serve: I have given your priest’s office unto you as a service of gift: and the stranger <02114> that cometh nigh shall be put to death.

Take note however of this.......

Lev 22:10 There shall no stranger eat of the holy thing: a sojourner of the priest, or an hired servant, shall not eat of the holy thing.
11 But if the priest buy any soul with his money, he shall eat of it, and he that is born in his house: they shall eat of his meat.

And these....
1cor 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.
1cor 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.
act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

and these

Ro 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement <2643>.
Ro 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling <2643> of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation <2643>;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation <2643>.

This is about EATING, of the holy things of the priest YESHUA. BEING RECONCILED, no longer estranged. Having been purchased by his blood of atonement. BORN AGAIN.

 

[yedida]

Something to consider...
Christ made an atonement/ reconcilliation for sin as our passover.

Ex 29:33 And they shall eat those things wherewith the atonement was made, to consecrate and to sanctify them:
but a stranger <02114> shall not eat thereof, because they are holy.


Who ARE THE STRANGERS HERE? And what is the distinctiveness of these strangers? I will embolden the points I think ring significant here.
02114 &#1512;&#1493;&#1494; zuwr zoor
a primitive root; v; {See TWOT on 541}
AV-stranger 45, strange 18, estranged 4, stranger + 0376 3, another 2, strange woman 2, gone away 1, fanners 1, another place 1; 77
1) to be strange, be a stranger
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to become estranged
1a2) strange, another, stranger, foreigner, an enemy (participle)
1a3) loathsome (of breath) (participle)
1a4) strange woman, prostitute, harlot (meton)
1b) (Niphal) to be estranged
1c) (Hophal) to be a stranger, be one alienated
I would like to put forth my thoughts on this for a moment.

ESTRANGEMENT, like unto the notion of the separation of married couples which legally termed estranged from each other.
Those which are ESTRANGED FROM THE PRIESTS HOUSEHOLD. JEW OR GENTILE, BOTH STRANGERS FROM THE HOLY FOOD.
SEE HERE.....
Ex 30:33 Whosoever compoundeth any like it, or whosoever putteth any of it upon a stranger <02114>, shall even be cut off from his people.
Le 22:10 There shall no stranger <02114> eat of the holy thing: a sojourner of the priest, or an hired servant, shall not eat of the holy thing.
Le 22:12 If the priest&#8217;s daughter also be married unto a stranger <02114>, she may not eat of an offering of the holy things.
Le 22:13 But if the priest&#8217;s daughter be a widow, or divorced, and have no child, and is returned unto her father&#8217;s house, as in her youth, she shall eat of her father&#8217;s meat: but there shall no stranger <02114> eat thereof.

Nu 3:10 And thou shalt appoint Aaron and his sons, and they shall wait on their priest&#8217;s office: and the stranger <02114> that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
Nu 3:38 But those that encamp before the tabernacle toward the east, even before the tabernacle of the congregation eastward, shall be Moses, and Aaron and his sons, keeping the charge of the sanctuary for the charge of the children of Israel; and the stranger <02114> that cometh nigh shall be put to death.

Nu 16:40 To be a memorial unto the children of Israel, that no stranger <02114>, which is not of the seed of Aaron, come near to offer incense before the LORD; that he be not as Korah, and as his company: as the LORD said to him by the hand of Moses.
Nu 18:4 And they shall be joined unto thee, and keep the charge of the tabernacle of the congregation, for all the service of the tabernacle: and a stranger <02114> shall not come nigh unto you.

Nu 18:7 Therefore thou and thy sons with thee shall keep your priest&#8217;s office for every thing of the altar, and within the vail; and ye shall serve: I have given your priest&#8217;s office unto you as a service of gift: and the stranger <02114> that cometh nigh shall be put to death.

Take note however of this.......

Lev 22:10 There shall no stranger eat of the holy thing: a sojourner of the priest, or an hired servant, shall not eat of the holy thing.
11 But if the priest buy any soul with his money, he shall eat of it, and he that is born in his house: they shall eat of his meat.

And these....
1cor 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God&#8217;s.
1cor 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.
act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

and these

Ro 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement <2643>.
Ro 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling <2643> of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation <2643>;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation <2643>.

This is about EATING, of the holy things of the priest YESHUA. BEING RECONCILED, no longer estranged. Having been purchased by his blood of atonement. BORN AGAIN.

I believe it is understood that someone purchased by an Israelite or born into the house of an Israelite master are circumcised according to the word of Adonai as given to Abraham concerning his servants , purchased and/or born into his household: they were all to be circumcised. Gen. 17:11-14

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by cupid dave

1) Jesus was slaughter in the temple when the High Priest ordained it to be so.

​

Yeshua was not slaughtered in any way at all. When He is called the Passover lamb it is an anti-type and not the real thing.
In order for Him to have been the actually lamb He would have been slaughtered, impaled from one end to the other and placed on a fire then eaten.
shalom,
Mizz

Isn't Revelation 5:9 symbolizing Jesus as the passover lamb?

Acts 8:32
The yet contexts of the Scripture which he read was this 'as a-sheep/flock onto slaughter/sfaghn <4967> He was led
and as a-Lamb before of the one shearing Him, soundless, thus not opening His mouth
[Isaiah 53:7]

Reve 5:9
And they are singing a new song,saying: "Thou are worthy to be taking the scrollet and to up-open the seals of it
that Thou wast slaughtered/slain/esfaghV <4969> (5648)
and Thou purchase to the God in the blood of Thee, out of every tribe, and tongue and people and nation"

4967. sphage sfag-ay' from 4969; butchery (of animals for food or sacrifice, or (figuratively) of men (destruction)):--slaughter.
4969. sphazo sfad'-zo a primary verb; to butcher (especially an animal for food or in sacrifice) or (generally) to slaughter, or (specially), to maim (violently):--

 

[annier]

I believe it is understood that someone purchased by an Israelite or born into the house of an Israelite master are circumcised according to the word of Adonai as given to Abraham concerning his servants , purchased and/or born into his household: they were all to be circumcised. Gen. 17:11-14

I think you have misunderstood the point of "STRANGERS" in the TORAH here. Strangers in these passages speaks of ALL ISRAELITES, being unable to eat from the holy things of the priests.

 

[yedida]

I think you have misunderstood the point of "STRANGERS" in the TORAH here. Strangers in these passages speaks of ALL ISRAELITES, being unable to eat from the holy things of the priests.

I wasn't commenting on the whole. You inferred that the servants bought by the priests and children born to these purchased servants were not circumcised because because it doesn't explicitely state that they were - thus the inferrence. My comment was in correcting that assumption with scripture. They would have followed Abraham's actions as he was acting in accordance to what Adonai had commanded him.