the awaited messiah of the Jews

[Huram Abi]

Hmmm...

No exactly correct.

About 200 years before Jesus Hebrew as a language had virtually died out.
Aramaic was the spoken and written language in the Targums which were used to compile an Aramaic Bible by the time of Jesus.

The actual oldest Hebrew bible found today was "raised fom the dead" in the 12th century.
It was really an attempt to establish a Hebrew bible using the Old Testament which had been written in Greek around 340 BC, around the time of Alexander the Great.

Again, I refer you to the Interpretors Bible Encyclopedia which in the introduction explains that the Torah was canomnized @ 900BC, meaning that for 460 years aftwer Moses there was no physical Bible, but am oral method of passing on the information, using both the actual artifacts, themselves, like the Tabernacle, and the priestly rituals theselves together with a mnemonic use of the hands as a tool to note the facts in Genesis, for instance, by marking the seven double digits of the priestly hand and the four fingers each like the breastplate, with three phalanges on each, or twelve spaces.

Torah was composed between 1446 BCE and 1406 BCE, with the remaining books composed between 1400 BCE to 400 BCE.

 

[Huram Abi]

And, no, the written portion is not formerly the oral portion.

The oral portion is seperate. They had the written AND the oral.

 

[dfw69]

Let us imagine I wanted to change the text of the New Testament today. How difficult would it be? Could I simply go grab the "original" and change it?

Imagine going back to that point in time, where there are hundreds of handmade copies floating around. Now, with a Torah scroll any imperfection meant that the scroll had to be redone. So, one could not simply change the words there. I suppose that is why most people avoid saying we changed the Torah.

To the Prophets, there would still be multiple scrolls floating around. Copies were made of copies. There was no way every copy would have been made at some central processing location. In order to change the text someone would have had to have collected and destroyed all the copies and then distributed new ones. Without a printing press.
Do you know what leaven is? Just for curiosity's sake.

I see little in our literature that is about being prideful. In fact, much of it has to do with being humble before HaShem. That was Hosea's saying to us.[/QUOTE

I don't know how much of the Torah was hid or changed to disprove the new testament by the scribes...but the new testament is where most of the concentration lays .....changing these original text is what Jesus means....he was the bread of life ....the good meal is his teachings.....and the teachings of his followers...mostly the leaven was hid in the new testament....leaven is yeast to make bread rise....in the new testament leaven is describe as false doctrine

 

[dfw69]

OK, what did you not get so I can try again?

It's not like I trust all world leaders -- there's a lot of corruption out there. But the corruption is because people go after money and power and forget about people.

I thought you were trying to link the corruption with the fact someone was messing around with scriptural texts, and I did not understand that, if that's what you meant.



Not really. Any text can be true and accurate, but people manage to mess up reading it anyway.

If that were not so, everyone would score 100% on reading comprehension tests in school, but they don't.



Um, ok, except that passage I quoted about the leaven specifically says it's talking about the Kingdom of God and not the Pharisees or false doctrine or sin?

Where do you see the connections to these other things?

what Jesus is saying about the kingdom of heaven....the kingdom of heaven is his work and he knows what is going to happen concerning the kingdom from heaven.....3 things happen

1 that the meal would be tainted with leaven....false doctrine hidden in the new testament by a woman

2 that the birds of the air (satanic powers in high places) would lodge in its branches....

3 that with the good seed sown into the world..... his enemies will sow the corrupt seed ..... the good seed are those who bring forth good friuit....but the corrupt seed would bring forth evil fruit......and in the last days they will be known for who they are.....for tares and wheat look the same but when full grown....a distinction is made.....the tare are clearly seen for what they are ....because the heads are black and poisonous if eaten

the meal without leaven is good....Jesus knows whats really going on within his kingdom....and even knew this would happen within his kingdom.....this is proof of his prophetic abilities as being a true prophet of god

 

[Wally Cleaver]

I have always left that as a possibility.

I just picked this random quote to get your attention.

I see this thread has been pretty....mangled and disjointed (thanks to dfw69), so I thought I'd ask the following irrelevant question, as it's hard to make it worse.

What sin did Moses commit when He struck the rock in the book of Numbers? Was it simply not giving the credit to God before he struck the rock?

 

[dfw69]

I just picked this random quote to get your attention.

I see this thread has been pretty....mangled and disjointed (thanks to dfw69), so I thought I'd ask the following irrelevant question, as it's hard to make it worse.

What sin did Moses commit when He struck the rock in the book of Numbers? Was it simply not giving the credit to God before he struck the rock?

thanks alot .....what a nice thing to say....not

i am simply answering the questions presented to me....this is after all my thread....your welcome to start a new one....but please dont accuse me of anything just to be mean....

 

[cupid dave]

If the awaited messiah of the Jews comes tomorrow.....would he be a false messiah if he was not Jesus?....for believers in the Christian faith....he would be false....Jesus said to be not deceive......when they say behold he is in the desert or secret chamber....do not go after him...the theme of the new testament is that Jesus is the true king and savior of Israel....all others false....past present and future

AWhat is the evidence in scripture that John was The Elijah?

He said he was not, and he did no miracles at all, even though Jewish Tradition insisted that Elijah would be known by the miracles he did.

Assume you are "proving" to the Jews in 32AD, and also today, that John was the required Elijah for a messiah like Jesus to come after him.

Can anyone?

How can the Jews miss the point that the Christians must be wrong about John who comes back after 800 years and all he does is water baptize and get beheaded.

Is that event, the return of the Elijah, so mundane to the Jews even now????

 

[Wally Cleaver]

thanks alot .....what a nice thing to say....not

Ha sorry. I just noticed that you started the thread; you should be able to do what you want I guess. I apologize.

 

[cupid dave]

what Jesus is saying about the kingdom of heaven....is his work and what is happening concerning the kingdom from heaven.....that the meal would be tainted....the meal without leaven is good....Jesus knows whats really going on within his kingdom....and even knew this would happen within his kingdom.....this is proof of his prophetic abilities as being a true prophet of god

Oh, yeah...
Jesus was a prophet, but what evidence do you have that John was the prophet Elijah, returned?

If John can not be shown to be the Jewish Elijah, one who answers all the ancient questions about Torh, then Jesus could not be the one who comes after the Elijah,...

 

[dfw69]

Oh, yeah...
Jesus was a prophet, but what evidence do you have that John was the prophet Elijah, returned?

If John can not be shown to be the Jewish Elijah, one who answers all the ancient questions about Torh, then Jesus could not be the one who comes after the Elijah,...

the work of john and jesus comission by god was to prepare the sacrificial lamb of god on the cross to redeem the whole world...the first work is that of priest

the work of the king messiah and elijah to prepare israel for the kingdom or messianic age....is yet to be fulfilled by the second return of jesus and the coming of enoch and elijah.....enoch and elijah will prepare the way for the kingdom

 

[Huram Abi]

Oh, yeah...
Jesus was a prophet, but what evidence do you have that John was the prophet Elijah, returned?

If John can not be shown to be the Jewish Elijah, one who answers all the ancient questions about Torh, then Jesus could not be the one who comes after the Elijah,...

Cupid, you know very well that Jesus said John was Elijah, as did the angel Gabriel.

He was not peer pressured, as you claim.

Your "if" argument has fallen flat, especially since the "if" is in the context of "whether (or not)"

Jesus, speaking of John:

Matt 11:14 And whether ye will receive, this is Elias, which was for to come.

 

[dfw69]

Not really. I have met plenty of people who "know" and will continue to insist they "know" but seem less than forthcoming about the digits to the upcoming MegaMillions drawing.

what your saying is that you met plenty of christians who say they are prophets?.....

a prophet is one that talks to god as you and i are talking....word for word

i never claim to be a prophet...but there is nothing wrong in beleiveng jesus was a prophet....is there?....not in our law....some one is wrong in there interpretation we discuss ,we forgive, count as ignorance....whats does your law say to do?....

christianity is foolish to some....yet for us we are not called to agree all the time and be in perfect harmony or else judgement!!!....we are called to love one another......jesus is the truth and the light of the world ...everything else lies in darkness acording to him

 

[dfw69]

Cupid, you know very well that Jesus said John was Elijah, as did the angel Gabriel.

He was not peer pressured, as you claim.

Your "if" argument has fallen flat, especially since the "if" is in the context of "whether (or not)"

Jesus, speaking of John:

Matt 11:14 And whether ye will receive, this is Elias, which was for to come.

well if jesus meant what you think he meant...then he is a false prophet yes?

how can one man be another man when he is that man?...if a man can only be himself.....then jesus was speaking symbolically....and since we know elijah is yet to come....then john was not elijah...nor the fulfillment of the prophecy of elijah return before the great and terrible day

 

[dfw69]

Ha sorry. I just noticed that you started the thread; you should be able to do what you want I guess. I apologize.

well i am learning alot here and there are some here willing to teach me what they believe....but your welcome to post what you like here and get involved in our conversations brother....your apology is accepted....thank you ....adding a reputation

 

[Booko]

the work of the king messiah and elijah to prepare israel for the kingdom or messianic age....is yet to be fulfilled by the second return of jesus and the coming of enoch and elijah.....enoch and elijah will prepare the way for the kingdom

I know you've mentioned this about Enoch and Elijah before being the two witnesses, but I'm still not following why you would pick those two figures other than that they are supposed to not have died. Except the same could be said of Melchizedek, so why not him?

I have heard a couple of people advance Moses and Elijah as possibilities and they tie that to the NT story of the Transfiguration because they appear together in that account.

I don't see any particular reason yet to connect the two witnesses with previous Biblical figures, other than people try to figure out who they might represent and it's a natural place to start looking for ideas.

 

[dfw69]

I know you've mentioned this about Enoch and Elijah before being the two witnesses, but I'm still not following why you would pick those two figures other than that they are supposed to not have died. Except the same could be said of Melchizedek, so why not him?

I have heard a couple of people advance Moses and Elijah as possibilities and they tie that to the NT story of the Transfiguration because they appear together in that account.

I don't see any particular reason yet to connect the two witnesses with previous Biblical figures, other than people try to figure out who they might represent and it's a natural place to start looking for ideas.

i do not believe the account of melchisedec....so i do not believe melchisadec was ever taken to heaven ....i believe the book of enoch is a lie...unless the old testament says that melchisadec went to heaven....and since no account lays in the old testament....it must be false

moses and elijah appeared before jesus?....well call me a conspiracy nut if you want to.....but it is possible that moses did not appeared to him........moses was dead....melchesidec was dead....the only two who could have appeared before jesus was enoch and elijah...so the text was altered...someone added moses and took out enoch.....to convince the jews that the new testament is a lie....for why would jews think that moses would appear to jesus being dead?...they would not...but only perceieve the gospel as the gosple of satan....this type of thing has happen throughout the new testament

 

[LoAmmi]

For someone who believes so strongly, you seem to dislike a great deal that the New Testament has to say.

 

[Booko]

About 200 years before Jesus Hebrew as a language had virtually died out.

Just because a language dies out as a spoken language does not mean it's forgotten. Ask a Catholic priest if the Vatican has forgotten Latin, even if it's a dead language.

Classical Hebrew may have died as a spoken language but it has existed as a liturgical language just fine.

Aramaic was the spoken and written language in the Targums which were used to compile an Aramaic Bible by the time of Jesus.

In the period where the canon was being debated, one of the criteria for inclusion of a text was it had to be...in Hebrew.

I fail to see what Aramaic has to do with any of this.

The core of the Torah (the first five books of the Hebrew Bible), and most of the rest of the Hebrew Bible, is written in Classical Hebrew, and much of its present form is specifically the dialect of Biblical Hebrew that scholars believe flourished around the 6th century BCE, around the time of the Babylonian exile.

From here.

The actual oldest Hebrew bible found today was "raised fom the dead" in the 12th century.

What does that have to do with anything? It doesn't mean the text was forged.

The Dead Sea Scrolls date to starting around 150B.C.E. They include manuscripts from the Hebrew Bible -- in Hebrew.

You're only off by a few centuries there.

And the content matches current manuscripts in a way that would cause someone who knows textual criticism to understand the text is accurate and not a victim of wholesale editing.

It was really an attempt to establish a Hebrew bible using the Old Testament which had been written in Greek around 340 BC, around the time of Alexander the Great.

None of what you say makes it remotely feasible that anyone pulled a switcheroo and managed to make changes to all the copies of the Bible and there's not even one highly variant text still in existence that might suggest such a thing happened.

The fact that the Dead Sea Scrolls were unearthed mere decades ago and 40% of them are Biblical texts in Hebrew means there were Hebrew texts then.

The fact these fairly recent finds to not differ wildly from the text as it has been passed down over 2000 years demonstrates that the text has not been ravaged.

Jesus revised this ancient Art as we can read in Matt 3:12... "the Fan in his Hand"...

Dude, that "ancient art" has to do with winnowing. The "fan" is an agricultural tool. Go to Amish country -- it isn't even "ancient" to them.

People around the world haven't forgotten how to grow grain or the use of ancient tools and methods just because someone invented the combine.

Your picture makes Jesus look like He came from a Marvel Comic with that amazing laser-splash hand thingy.

But the text says The Man should be holding a tool for sorting the wheat from the chaff, not auditioning for a part in the upcoming Avengers movie.

[/quote]

 

[dfw69]

For someone who believes so strongly, you seem to dislike a great deal that the New Testament has to say.

most simple god fearing faithful christians who love jesus dont really see the all the little imperfections....thats because they dont need to be convinced....they just know its right in heart...what little knowlege they have they hold on to like gold...any one trying to shake their faith will be seen as an enemy....yes we are blinded by Jesus marvalous light....

but after learning many things by so many people i began to seek these claims for myself....here i am

 

[LoAmmi]

most simple god fearing faithful christians who love jesus dont really see the all the little imperfections....thats because they dont need to be convinced....they just know its right in heart...what little knowlege they have they hold on to like gold...any one trying to shake their faith will be seen as an enemy....yes we are blinded by Jesus marvalous light....

but after learning many things by so many people i began to seek these claims for myself....here i am

Alright. But the text is clear. Jesus says that John came in the spirit of Elijah. To dispute this is to put the entire Gospel in question.