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Methods Of Dating Rock & Fossils

RickG

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If you want to post a link, quote a relevant sentence or paragraph. Are you offering a SN light curve here?

Originally Posted by RickG
I'm not sure what you are asking. I venture a guess that you may be referring to Knödlseder, et al 2000.

Constraints on stellar yields and Sne from gamma-ray line observations. New Astronony Reviews 44: 315-320

You can source the paper here: http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/9912131.pdf
I probably would have had you made it clear what you were commenting about instead of your usual incoherent gibberish.

The best I could tell from your reply to me was that you had some question about Supernovae 1987A. What your post implied, I have no Idea, but I did give a link to a paper that discusses that particular SN.

If you want a particular line from the study here:

"During the last decade the field of gamma-ray line astronomy has made important progress. On the one hand, the explosion of the nearby supernova SN 1987A in the Large Magellanic Cloud provided us with a bright source of nuclear gamma-ray lines due to the decay of freshly produced radioactive isotopes."

Again, the full paper is here: http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/9912131.pdf
 
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Michael

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Either science knows or not.

It doesn't have anything to do with what science knows, it has to do with what INDIVIDUALS are willing to accept or not accept in terms of the scientific evidence.

You chose to believe stuff. OK.

Do you use a computer? You also 'believe' in science and the use of scientific instruments. The issue is NOT related to 'science', since both you and the Pope come to completely DIFFERENT interpretations, not only of the SCIENCE and physics, but also in terms of his INTERPRETATION of the book you're using as a cited references. :confused:

Cop out. The dates are not my interpretation. And you cannot give us a case for another interpretation against a different state past and future if that is what you mean. In all ways, you lose.

Huh? The dates are provided by the C14 method. The DATES you seem to have put forth have NOTHING to do with the BOOK you're using as a reference since the whole Catholic branch of 'Christianity" rejects your personal INTERPRETATION of that book. You simply don't have a scientific leg (or spiritual leg for that matter) to stand on. You're literally holding up yourself as your own reference evidently.
 
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It doesn't have anything to do with what science knows, it has to do with what INDIVIDUALS are willing to accept or not accept in terms of the scientific evidence.
A lot of science is based on the creative stories they tell about the so called evidence they have.
Do we remember Nebraska Man?

0055_12.gif


Do you use a computer?
So you do not know the difference between science and technology?
 
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Michael

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A lot of science is based on the creative stories they tell about the so called evidence they have.

FYI, you're preaching to the choir. ;) I'm not personally thrilled with the cosmology branch of so called 'science' myself, or their creative stories about "dark" stuff and dead inflation entities. I do however see ENOUGH evidence from the field of science to accept the fact that we live on an ANCIENT planet, certainly much older than the 55K or so years that applies to the Carbon dating method.
 
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CaliforniaSun

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A lot of science is based on the creative stories they tell about the so called evidence they have.
Do we remember Nebraska Man?

0055_12.gif


So you do not know the difference between science and technology?
If I stated how I really feel about Chick tracks, I'd prolly' get banned. So I'll refrain and just lulz a bit.
 
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pgp_protector

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If I stated how I really feel about Chick tracks, I'd prolly' get banned. So I'll refrain and just lulz a bit.

Some of us also probably feel the same way about them.
 
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Split Rock

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A lot of science is based on the creative stories they tell about the so called evidence they have.
Do we remember Nebraska Man?
Yes. It was a misidentification that was quickly corrected, never went anywhere, nor had any effect on evolutionary biology.... except it lives on like a zombie in creation ministry websites and Chick tracts.

Please, please, please.. for your own sake... stay away from Chick tracts... unless you want a good laugh... ;)

So you do not know the difference between science and technology?
Yes. Technology is based on science.
 
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dad

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I probably would have had you made it clear what you were commenting about instead of your usual incoherent gibberish.

The best I could tell from your reply to me was that you had some question about Supernovae 1987A. What your post implied, I have no Idea, but I did give a link to a paper that discusses that particular SN.

If you want a particular line from the study here:

"During the last decade the field of gamma-ray line astronomy has made important progress. On the one hand, the explosion of the nearby supernova SN 1987A in the Large Magellanic Cloud provided us with a bright source of nuclear gamma-ray lines due to the decay of freshly produced radioactive isotopes."

Again, the full paper is here: http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/9912131.pdf
Hey, the fact seems to be that dust is used to explain a decrease or increase of what is expected in a light curve. No?

So we would need to look at how they determine dust exists....and not just assumed to be changing the light.

When one claims that certain things decayed right on cue, one must look at the exact basis for the claim.

It seems that they have less than a perfect understanding of dust?


"Early spectra showed that the envelope appeared to be
expanding at velocities between 6000 and 8000 km-sec1
. We
argued that if the central engine maintained the luminosity
observed at outburst throughout the dust production process,
the maximum dust shell optical depth should have been
reached sometime between 240 and 330 days
after the outburst.
In fact, the dust began to form =300 days after the
outburst and did not reach maximum optical depth until -day
600.
"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC54108/pdf/pnas01036-0340.pdf












"About 400 days after the explosion, the optical light began to drop off more rapidly, while the IR emission increased. Such an effect is known to be caused by the formation of dust..."

http://books.google.ca/books?id=tb5...y#v=onepage&q=sn1987a light curve dust&f=true
 
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dad

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.. I do however see ENOUGH evidence from the field of science to accept the fact that we live on an ANCIENT planet, certainly much older than the 55K or so years that applies to the Carbon dating method.
False.
 
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dad

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It doesn't have anything to do with what science knows, it has to do with what INDIVIDUALS are willing to accept or not accept in terms of the scientific evidence.
False! I accept all evidence. There is none for a same state past. Do not pretend otherwise.

Do you use a computer? You also 'believe' in science and the use of scientific instruments. The issue is NOT related to 'science', since both you and the Pope come to completely DIFFERENT interpretations, not only of the SCIENCE and physics, but also in terms of his INTERPRETATION of the book you're using as a cited references. :confused:
Explain how a computer depends on a same state past? Bizarre.



Huh? The dates are provided by the C14 method. The DATES you seem to have put forth have NOTHING to do with the BOOK you're using as a reference since the whole Catholic branch of 'Christianity" rejects your personal INTERPRETATION of that book. You simply don't have a scientific leg (or spiritual leg for that matter) to stand on. You're literally holding up yourself as your own reference evidently.[/quote]
 
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RickG

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Hey, the fact seems to be that dust is used to explain a decrease or increase of what is expected in a light curve. No?

So we would need to look at how they determine dust exists....and not just assumed to be changing the light.

When one claims that certain things decayed right on cue, one must look at the exact basis for the claim.

It seems that they have less than a perfect understanding of dust?


"Early spectra showed that the envelope appeared to be
expanding at velocities between 6000 and 8000 km-sec1
. We
argued that if the central engine maintained the luminosity
observed at outburst throughout the dust production process,
the maximum dust shell optical depth should have been
reached sometime between 240 and 330 days
after the outburst.
In fact, the dust began to form =300 days after the
outburst and did not reach maximum optical depth until -day
600.
"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC54108/pdf/pnas01036-0340.pdf












"About 400 days after the explosion, the optical light began to drop off more rapidly, while the IR emission increased. Such an effect is known to be caused by the formation of dust..."

The life of stars: the controversial inception and emergence of the theory ... - Giora Shaviv - Google Books

You are way off track dad with a bunch of non sequitur gobbledygook. SN decay rates are measured by gamma ray spectroscopy. It measures the energies of gamma ray photons at specific wavelengths, i.e. , identifying specific radionuclides and their decay rates. I've not used gamma ray spectroscopy myself, but I do have a number of years experience using IR and UV/Vis spectroscopy. It all works on the same principle, just a different portion of the electromagnetic spectrum. It is a very robust science used in numerous fields of science and technology.
 
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AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
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You know what's funny? Kent Hovind accepted carbon dating when he was using it to show how his polystrate trees were less than 10k years old but when it's used on a fossil that's 65 million years old? Oh no! carbon dating is inaccurate!
Um...

Carbon dating only works to about 62,000 years.
 
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RickG

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Um...

Carbon dating only works to about 62,000 years.

That is due to its short half-life of 5,730 years. All radionuclides have different half-lives, some are only mili-seconds while others are over a billion years.

Whoops! I reread your post AV, I missed your point. You are correct.
 
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dad

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You know what's funny? Kent Hovind accepted carbon dating when he was using it to show how his polystrate trees were less than 10k years old but when it's used on a fossil that's 65 million years old? Oh no! carbon dating is inaccurate!
You think carbon dating is claimed to be good for millions of years?? That is funny. As for Kent, he can forget 10,000 years.
 
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dad

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You are way off track dad with a bunch of non sequitur gobbledygook. SN decay rates are measured by gamma ray spectroscopy. It measures the energies of gamma ray photons at specific wavelengths, i.e. , identifying specific radionuclides and their decay rates. I've not used gamma ray spectroscopy myself, but I do have a number of years experience using IR and UV/Vis spectroscopy. It all works on the same principle, just a different portion of the electromagnetic spectrum. It is a very robust science used in numerous fields of science and technology.
No. The things that affect a light curve are important to look at. We need too know what is known.

I see that it was after a time that the gamma rays were seen....


"SN 1987a was continuously monitored prior to the first detection of X-rays by Ginga 130 days after the stellar collapse but no events were found. The shell at this time was too thick in the first hundred days for X-rays to escape."

X-ray light curve of SN 1987a


So if you want to hold up the light curve as a part of your case, you should be able to explain and evidence what you claim affected it!


I also notice that gamma ray bursts are not exactly well understood as to the source.

"Another example is gamma ray bursts, now known to be produced from processes too powerful to involve simple collections of atoms undergoing radioactive decay. This has led to the realization that many gamma rays produced in astronomical processes result not from radioactive decay or particle annihilation, but rather in much the same manner as the production of X-rays."

Gamma ray - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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RickG

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Your own source discusses in detail radioactive gamma decay. Your quote mining of the article doesn't help your argument. In case you missed it here's the direct link to that part of the article.

Gamma ray - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The paper I previously linked discusses the observation and quantification of decay of specific radionuclides from SN1987A. You may pull the wool over some peoples eyes, but sorry, I actually have a number of years experience applying spectroscopy.

Radionuclide decay rates have been observed on Earth, the Sun and Supernovae. In all cases, all radionuclides observed and quantified have the same decay rates.
 
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dad

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Your own source discusses in detail radioactive gamma decay. Your quote mining of the article doesn't help your argument. In case you missed it here's the direct link to that part of the article.

Gamma ray - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Yes I think we get that decay is assumed in sn1987a. However, you have not addressed the light curve and dust. Do you realize that dust is involved, yes or no?
The paper I previously linked discusses the observation and quantification of decay of specific radionuclides from SN1987A. You may pull the wool over some peoples eyes, but sorry, I actually have a number of years experience applying spectroscopy.
Then discuss it. Name a few specifics..and how we know that the light curve supports them.. You act as if I care about whether some things decayed or not there. Strange. I firstly want to see what is known. I would be tickled to establish that decay occurred there.

Science claimed a lot of stuff. Then they scrambled to cook up explanations after the fact about sn1987a. So now I demand a step by step approch to those that claim stuff on it.
Radionuclide decay rates have been observed on Earth, the Sun and Supernovae. In all cases, all radionuclides observed and quantified have the same decay rates.
The issue here is in Supernovae. Specifically sn1987a. The light curve then, you think it exactly went as expected for the cobalt and etc?
 
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KhaosTheory

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Yes I think we get that decay is assumed in sn1987a. However, you have not addressed the light curve and dust. Do you realize that dust is involved, yes or no?
Then discuss it. Name a few specifics..and how we know that the light curve supports them.. You act as if I care about whether some things decayed or not there. Strange. I firstly want to see what is known. I would be tickled to establish that decay occurred there.

Science claimed a lot of stuff. Then they scrambled to cook up explanations after the fact about sn1987a. So now I demand a step by step approch to those that claim stuff on it.
The issue here is in Supernovae. Specifically sn1987a. The light curve then, you think it exactly went as expected for the cobalt and etc?

Why are you using all these sciencey terms. Why are you trying to study anything?

I mean, according to you, the laws of nature could completely change tomorrow like they did before so why are we wasting our time with all this evidence stuff?

Tomorrow "up" will be "left", "down" will be "right", and atoms will be made of jellybeans! Prove me wrong!
Sound ridiculous? Now you know why I laugh when you think this is how the flood happened.

let's all just believe what a bronze age story book says instead.
 
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dad

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Why are you using all these sciencey terms. Why are you trying to study anything?

I mean, according to you, the laws of nature could completely change tomorrow like they did before so why are we wasting our time with all this evidence stuff?
The different laws are not an issue. What we know is the issue. Sometimes just looking at the bare facts that are actually known can help. Help....find out where you are wrong of course. That is all that remains to do.
Tomorrow "up" will be "left", "down" will be "right", and atoms will be made of jellybeans! Prove me wrong!
Sound ridiculous? Now you know why I laugh when you think this is how the flood happened.

let's all just believe what a bronze age story book says instead.
Now, on the issue of sn1987a --notice that the light curve and all it is supposed to mean is affected by dust they claim.


"After 500 days the visible light faded even faster than the Cobalt-56 decay rate. That happened because after that time dust particles began to form in the supernova debris. The grains absorbed part of the optical radiation and converted it into infrared radiation. Moreover, the supernova debris had thinned out enough so that the gamma rays could escape directly without first becoming converted to optical light."

L6S6

Now, aside from them needing this to be the case, will someone please prove it!!???:)


I mean you guys seem willing to swallow any wild tale to make a fable true.


"
" But as observations of 1987A hit the three-year mark, little cobalt-56 remained, and the light curve flattened, reports Walker, Nicholas B. Suntzeff and their colleagues in the September ASTRONOMICAL JOURNAL. The flatter curve matches the slower decay of another isotope, cobalt-57, which the supernova produced in smaller amounts, the group notes. Another team, at the European Southern Observatory in La Silla, Chile, reports similar results.

So far so good. But although the shape of the light curve mimics the decay of cobalt-57, the magnitude of the curve -- indicating the amount of light now emitted by 1987A -- exceeds that predicted by theory, both teams say. One way to explain the greater emissions, note Suntzeff and his colleagues, is to assume that the supernova produced a ratio of cobalt-57 to cobalt-56 five times the ratio typical in our solar system. They will report these results in an upcoming ASTROPHYSICAL JOURNAL LETTERS."
Supernova's light curve baffles scientists - supernova 1987A | Science News | Find Articles


How anyone could take you seriously I honestly do not know.



Then there is this..:)

"
"Another key finding is that the team has detected far less dust than expected. A star as massive as the one that blew apart in SN 1987A likely produced more silicate dust in the years before the supernova. The under-abundance of dust detected by Spitzer and Gemini South could mean that supernova blast waves destroy more dust than thought possible"

Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums


Aside from comedy this stuff is ridiculous!!



It just goes on and on and on and on....like how the rings are a mystery!


" Both the slow speeds and the unusual composition show that the rings were expelled from the progenitor star when it was a red supergiant, more than 20,000 years before that star exploded as a supernova. However, one would have expected such a star to eject material in a more regular fashion, steadily expelling material in all directions, rather than puffing rings like a pipe smoker."

The SN 1987A Story

Oh...a bit more on the dust stories of science...

"After the scientists yielded the images from space, they were amazed to discover that SN 1987A was aglow with light and, with careful calculations, it was revealed that the radiancy was originating from enormous clouds of dust - consisting of 10,000 times more material than previously estimated."


Herschel dusts off hidden cosmic origin


Gee they were a little off here!

Need more? Your position is indefensible!
 
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