If God loves us, why does he send us to hell?

[bottomofsandal]

Anyone who uses critical thinking when reading Scripture can see that God has unconditional love for His creation. For starters, He very well could have wiped out everything He created after the fall of man and start all over. But He didn't. He loves us even though He hates sin, and we are all sinners and instead of destroying us, through His love, and while we were still the thing He hated...sinners....He sent a perfect sacrificial lamb to atone for our sins. How is that NOT unconditional love?

Ah, there's the problem...critical thinking opposed to The Holy Spirit. The wisdom of this world is foolishness with God (1 Cor 3:19). We see nothing about "critical thinking" (man's wisdom) in 1Corinthians 2, where Paul says we know the things of God by The Spirit of God.


Unconditional love is not in The Bible, certainly unconditional or the same kind of love for all men. Isn't our love relationship with God conditioned upon belief ?

John 3:16 begins by stating "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son...". If you've ever lost a child, you would know how much pain that causes, how resentment and anger could take control. Do you think God enjoyed seeing what was happening to Jesus, what man had resorted to? The very definition of unconditional means without condition or limits. God has more than proven that His love is unconditional love for us. Over and over and over again, it is shown through Scripture that man has sinned and disappointed God. Yet, God continued loving, even through discipline, and loved us unconditionally to the point that His Son suffered and died for us.

We have already discussed "world" and "all". You are using UnBiblical terminology to discuss The Bible. Where is unconditional love for all men as you postulate in the Bible ?

God is patient with us, and waits for us to repent. That is unconditional love, especially when considering He has the power to destroy us at the first sign of rebelling against Him.

I fail to see how you can thing that God has anything but unconditional love for us! And I for one thank Him, am grateful for His patience and that unconditional love!!

Patience is patience, not unconditional love. David said we are born in iniquity, so it makes no sense to say "first sign of rebelling". I am grateful for God's grace and mercy in addition to His patience. What I think or don't think does not matter in the slighest ! What matters is what God says or doesn't say. Blessed in the man the Lord chooses...this is in The Bible. God loves everyone unconditionally is not in The Bible.

 

[loveabounds]

Ah, there's the problem...critical thinking opposed to The Holy Spirit. The wisdom of this world is foolishness with God (1 Cor 3:19). We see nothing about "critical thinking" (man's wisdom) in 1Corinthians 2, where Paul says we know the things of God by The Spirit of God.


Unconditional love is not in The Bible, certainly unconditional or the same kind of love for all men. Isn't our love relationship with God conditioned upon belief ?




We have already discussed "world" and "all". You are using UnBiblical terminology to discuss The Bible. Where is unconditional love for all men as you postulate in the Bible ?


Patience is patience, not unconditional love. David said we are born in iniquity, so it makes no sense to say "first sign of rebelling". I am grateful for God's grace and mercy in addition to His patience. What I think or don't think does not matter in the slighest ! What matters is what God says or doesn't say. Blessed in the man the Lord chooses...this is in The Bible. God loves everyone unconditionally is not in The Bible.[/quot

So, your first response put words in my mouth, told me what I thought and what I did, now you assume that I do not pray prior to reading Scripture, turn to Him for guidance and then have Him NOT show me what Scriptures mean. This speaks volumes about your capabilities to have a civil, rational discussion. Interesting.

James 1:5 tells us that we should ask for wisdom and it will be given us. You assume that because your opinions (and they are just that...opinions), differ from mine, that you are the one with wisdom. Pride cometh before destruction.

By saying that God does not love us unconditionally, you put limits on Him. Furthermore, you are feel to believe that God does not love His creation unconditionally, but there is ample proof in the Bible that proves otherwise. Just as Jesus did not use emotions to define the word love, but defined it by actions, God's actions prove His love is limitless and uncondition for His children.

 

[bottomofsandal]

By saying that God does not love us unconditionally, you put limits on Him. Furthermore, you are feel to believe that God does not love His creation unconditionally, but there is ample proof in the Bible that proves otherwise.

Please list them, that's all I ask-

 

[loveabounds]

Please list them, that's all I ask-

One of the books that comes quickly to mind is the book of Hosea. Read it, see the relationship between what God is saying to Hosea and God's relationship to us.

That's just one to start with.

God loves us without condition. He loves us not because He gains anything from it, His love is not contingent on what we do, He loves us unconditionally...by the very definition of the word.

 

[loveabounds]

I am perplexed over your thought that God does not love unconditionally. Why do you not believe so? Because Scripture does not come out and say "God loves you unconditionally"??? Scripture does not come out and say "God is a triune God" either...but you believe He is, don't you?

 

[loveabounds]

God's character is displayed throughout the entire Bible. One just needs to be guided to see it.

 

[bottomofsandal]

One of the books that comes quickly to mind is the book of Hosea. Read it, see the relationship between what God is saying to Hosea and God's relationship to us.

That's just one to start with.

God loves us without condition. He loves us not because He gains anything from it, His love is not contingent on what we do, He loves us unconditionally...by the very definition of the word.

Then why doesn't everyone go to Heaven ?

 

[loveabounds]

Then why doesn't everyone go to Heaven ?

God is very patient with us, wishing none would perish. God reveals Himself in many ways but God does not force us to return His unconditional love. Not believing that Jesus Christ is our Savior receives punishment. Heaven is not a reward for the unfaithful, the unbelieving.

A just God does not mean that He does not love unconditionally.

 

[bottomofsandal]

God is very patient with us, wishing none would perish. God reveals Himself in many ways but God does not force us to return His unconditional love. Not believing that Jesus Christ is our Savior receives punishment. Heaven is not a reward for the unfaithful, the unbelieving.

A just God does not mean that He does not love unconditionally.

I am not being difficult, just trying to illustrate a point that is implicit in your POV. If God loves everyone unconditionally, then there is people in hell who God loves unconditionally. Do you believe this ?



How can you address the Psalms where God says He hates people ? Does God somehow hate and love unconditionally simultaneously ? The only possibility of God loving everyone unconditionally exists with the Universalist who believes God's love is so great that everyone must go to Heaven.


Psalm 5:4-5

New King James Version (NKJV)

4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness,
Nor shall evil dwell with You.
5 The boastful shall not stand in Your sight;
You hate all workers of iniquity.

 

[loveabounds]

I am not being difficult, just trying to illustrate a point that is implicit in your POV. If God loves everyone unconditionally, then there is people in hell who God loves unconditionally. Do you believe this ?



How can you address the Psalms where God says He hates people ? Does God somehow hate and love unconditionally simultaneously ? The only possibility of God loving everyone unconditionally exists with the Universalist who believes God's love is so great that everyone must go to Heaven.


Psalm 5:4-5

New King James Version (NKJV)

4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness,
Nor shall evil dwell with You.
5 The boastful shall not stand in Your sight;
You hate all workers of iniquity.

First of all, I do not believe you are difficult. Secondly, as we read the Psalms that speak about what God hates, it is the sin within man...not the man himself, that God hates.

Are you a parent? Have you disciplined and punished your children? Does it mean you don't love them anymore when you have to punish them?

 

[bottomofsandal]

First of all, I do not believe you are difficult. Secondly, as we read the Psalms that speak about what God hates, it is the sin within man...not the man himself, that God hates.

Are you a parent? Have you disciplined and punished your children? Does it mean you don't love them anymore when you have to punish them?

God hates the sin, but not the sinner ?

But, Psalm 5 says "WORKERS" of iniquity.



Is everyone God's children ?

Is everyone God's sheep ?

Does God love everyone exactly the same ?

Does God create some men fitted for destruction ?



I will post part of Westminster Confession later...

 

[loveabounds]

God hates the sin, but not the sinner ?

But, Psalm 5 says "WORKERS" of iniquity.



Is everyone God's children ?

Is everyone God's sheep ?

Does God love everyone exactly the same ?

Does God create some men fitted for destruction ?



I will post part of Westminster Confession later...

Bottomofsandal

I have been thinking about this, rereading Scripture and I think perhaps you are right. God's love is immeasurable and without limits, which is different than unconditional love. Still meditating on it, but I'm begining to think you are correct in this.

No need to post Westminster Confession....I don't believe everything that Calvinists do.

But thanks for the thought provoking discussion.

 

[dollarsbill]

Malachi 1:2-3 (NASB)
2 "I have loved you," says the LORD. But you say, "How have You loved us?" "Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the LORD. "Yet I have loved Jacob; 3 but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness."

 

[bottomofsandal]

Bottomofsandal

I have been thinking about this, rereading Scripture and I think perhaps you are right. God's love is immeasurable and without limits, which is different than unconditional love. Still meditating on it, but I'm begining to think you are correct in this.

No need to post Westminster Confession....I don't believe everything that Calvinists do.

But thanks for the thought provoking discussion.

Who said anything about Calvinism ? The WC coalesces Christian doctrine substantiated by Scripture. One need not be a Calvinist to subscribe to it. I have books by Wesley, and am not a Methodist, I have a Jerusalem Bible...you get the picture. One more-I support portions of the Health Care act, but not the president.



Back to the OP...if God loves us, why does He send us to hell ? Does God send them to hell, or leave them in their sin ? If God really has the same love for all men or immeasurable love (infinite ?)love, then why does God treat men differently? Why does God in His Divine love give some men saving grace, yet withhold this same saving grace from other men ?

Romans 1:18-23

New King James Version (NKJV)
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

Romans 1:24-25

New King James Version (NKJV)

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.



CHAPTER V.

Of Providence.



VI. As for those wicked and ungodly men whom God, as a righteous Judge, for former sins, does blind and harden, from them He not only withholds His grace whereby they might have been enlightened in their understandings, and wrought upon in their hearts; but sometimes also withdraws the gifts which they had, and exposes them to such objects as their corruption makes occasion of sin; and, withal, gives them over to their own lusts, the temptations of the world, and the power of Satan, whereby it comes to pass that they harden themselves, even under those means which God uses for the softening of others.

 

[bottomofsandal]

Malachi 1:2-3 (NASB)
2 "I have loved you," says the LORD. But you say, "How have You loved us?" "Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the LORD. "Yet I have loved Jacob; 3 but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness."

Thanks bro, and again in Romans-

Are the vessels unto destruction knowingly created by God, and preordained to suffer God's wrath ? Although not "sent", they are created with the intention of not receiving God's saving grace ?


Romans 9:14-24

New King James Version (NKJV)

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[Timothew]

Thanks bro, and again in Romans-

Are the vessels unto destruction knowingly created by God, and preordained to suffer God's wrath ? Although not "sent", they are created with the intention of not receiving God's saving grace ?


Romans 9:14-24

New King James Version (NKJV)

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

What are the vessels prepared for again? What was that I heard?
Vessels prepared for eternal torture? No, that's not quite right. Vessels prepared for destruction? Yes, that's it. Destruction, not eternal torment.

 

[dollarsbill]

What are the vessels prepared for again? What was that I heard?
Vessels prepared for eternal torture? No, that's not quite right. Vessels prepared for destruction? Yes, that's it. Destruction, not eternal torment.

Yes indeed, destruction that never ends.

Revelation 14:9-11 (NASB)
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

 

[Timothew]

Yes indeed, destruction that never ends.

If something is destroyed, the fact that it is destroyed never ends. It doesn't start to be destroyed and then is destroyed and then destroyed again on the next day and the next, and so on.
Romans 9:22
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.

 

[dollarsbill]

If something is destroyed, the fact that it is destroyed never ends. It doesn't start to be destroyed and then is destroyed and then destroyed again on the next day and the next, and so on.
Romans 9:22
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.

Why do you ignore the terms 'everlasting' and 'eternal' that are mentioned several times in the NT. If what you say is true then those terms would be totally unnecessary. Doesn't work at all.

 

[Timothew]

Why do you ignore the terms 'everlasting' and 'eternal' that are mentioned several times in the NT. If what you say is true then those terms would be totally unnecessary. Doesn't work at all.

I'm not ignoring them. I believe the second death death is everlasting and eternal, unlike the first death which ends with resurrection.