Staff and Member discussion thread.

[Tishri1]

I need to go to sleep its 1:45 am and my day starts at 6 am..I feel I haven't even budged this thread but will do the best I can towards responding to all these posts tomorrow ok, God Bless

 

[Qnts2]

I, respectfully, would like to mention that the Torah can stand by itself as it stood for few thousand years BC and is still standing for it is perfect-in the words of David.

And I will submit that it stood alone but with a forward looking aspect. The prophesies of the Messiah, and the age to come.

With the NT, the witness of the Messiah. If you believe the Jesus is the Messiah prophesied in the Tenakh, then the two are inseperable. The NT can not stand without the Tenakh and the Tenakh can not stand if the Messiah never comes.

 

[Qnts2]

But it and a lot of posts here are not helpful to this forum. Here we need to respect the Torah observer and not derail their threads...I can keep this up all week if I have to, this forum has always enjoyed the safe haven of having discussion on Torah free of derailment, that will not change

Tish,

It has always been kept as a safe place for the Torah observer. The majority on this forum seemed to believe that the Mosaic law was a requirement for Jewish and Gentile believers, but that view is not held by most of Messianic Judaism. It actually was not a safe place for many or most Messianic Jews. That means it was not really Messianic Judaism, as this forum, protecting the Torah observant, rejected and treated harshly, many who were a part of Messianic Judaism.

I don't mind if this is a place for Torah observant only. I just ask that the name be changed so that the name of the forum accurately reflected what it's purpose was and Messianic Jews and Gentiles who do not believe the same way are not surprised by a Messianic Judaism forum which rejects the beliefs and does not want many Messianic Jews and Gentiles. It is not for Messianic Judaism, as most in Messianic Judaism do not adhere to the same views as this forum. But, it looks like the choice has been to include all of Messianic Judaism, so that means the forum will need to change to be more inclusive. Accepting of all of Messianic Judaism and the full range of views of Messianic Judaism, without belittling those who have a differing opinion.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

I'm glad that the latest audio teaching The Mosaic Laws is being well received.

The Mosaic Laws

Just some comments of my own in this discussion. It's interesting that Messianic Jewish leadership exemplifies and exercises grace in regards to the Mosaic Laws compared to what I would call fringe groups such as Hebrew roots, two house, one law etc.

I don't have much physical experience with these fringe groups but have experience online. I hear this all the time 'you have to keep the law and if you don't....' I hope this isn't our position here. Perhaps some of us here want to hear this from Messianic Jewish leadership, a more emphasis on the Mosaic laws towards a more but not quite 'we have to keep the law' or a 'we should keep the law'.

What I didn't get from the audio was telling that we should keep the law or how we should keep the law, pretty much in line with my experience both physically and online.

Intersting isn't it? It's also interesting that in my experience that one might think that Messianic Jewish leadership might conclude 'ok Jewish believers should and must keep the law and we are going to show them how' type of approach. Leaving non Jews outside of this scope. In fact that's not the truth either in my experience.

This is what believers want to hear. This is why I think that the congregation that did the audio teaching addressed this because there was talk and division within the congregation.

 

[Qnts2]

See my post above. We will not have folks derailing threads with unhelpful posts. That is a disruption to the peace and harmony of the forum that has enjoyed discussing Torah with its members since 2003 if my memory serves me correct

Tish,

As the newbie here, when I joined this forum, I expected a good conversation with fellow Messianic Jews and Gentiles. Instead, what I got was a more extreme view, and other Messianic Jews and Gentiles were not welcomed.

Then I found that there were Messianic Jews and Gentiles who had been rejected by this board to 'keep the peace'. So, the peace came at the cost of essentially harrassing, rejecting or banning Messianic Jews and Gentiles. How can this be a Messianic Judaism board, if it actually rejects the majority of Messianic Jews and Gentiles.

To have an entirely homogenous group, all agreeing with the required observance of the Mosaic law, by Jews and Gentiles, the theology is called One Law theology. I know you object to that term, but that is the term most use. It is not a belief common in Messianic Judaism. If you want to keep the forum based on that theology, maybe you can think of a term you would prefer.

 

[Laureate]

Any time I hear a (would be) Christian try to down play the Torah, I quote one verse from Yeshua, and it has yet to fail me in my defense of the Torah.

John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

I then postulate for my intended audience,Yeshua is saying, if you do not believe the Torah, then you only think you believe his words.

Because I'm not partial to images, I really never paid any attention to the icons in the CF forums, but I must admit when I zoomed in and saw MY scroll flying (that's right I'm claiming!), I was very pleased, for the scroll is my primary reason for considering myself to be a Hebrew Christian in the first place.

For like Daniel, my people too were taken from their land, because of their disobedience to YHWH, and like Daniel, our captives also were a people who exercised world domination, and like Daniel I too refuse to eat (rely on) the Kings meat, the meat of the king James that is, I choose the original diet prescribed by YHWH.

Remember how Yeshua said, 'Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ (anointed); and shall deceive many.

Well? many have not come claiming to be Yeshua HaMassiach, nor has any such person deceived any, let alone many, however many have come claiming to be anointed i.e., Christian/Messianic, and historically many have been deceived by those who misrepresent their anointing.

Paul postulates, that those who boast in being a member of a denomination, give in to jealousy, or are inclined to argue, that they are carnal, and not spiritual beings, and that their understanding of the scriptures is likewise carnal, and not spiritual, why then would anyone try to make such a boast, do not they know, they are naked before us who believe paul and act/conform accordingly.

Our Judaic brothers and sisters do better in this matter than us so called anointed ones, for they agree to disagree, yet they do not multiply denominations which promotes divisions, as we have been known to do.

Even a true non denominationalist has to post his views in the general theology forum, because the non denomination forum has one interpretative rule too many, thus making it like a denomination.

We should all strive to be Mature, Sober, and Alert, for with such, I have yet to find err.

The one thing that makes us all equal, is that we all have the ability to please, or displease our Maker.

 

[Tishri1]

Please stop derailing this thread anymore with debate on terms and uses and definitions of words. MJs don't need to be told what Torah is only you need to know that it's observance here for Jew or Gentile will not be used to throw labels on people, especially derogatory ones. If some gentile here is told following Torah is akin to being one law or two house ,I will consider that name calling or disruptive and start issuing violations.

this is a fellowship forum, and the folks here are like a family, this isn't a private debate forum, to jump from thread to thread , and disrupt conversations with obvious attempts to teach folks or debate folks that they are wrong in their beliefs, and grabbing quotes from MJAA to try and justify this behavior or further derail threads of folks in here will not keep one from getting infractions if all your doing is derailing and disrupting the peace of this forum ( this is a universal "you " as in anyone out there who wishes to use this as a way to disrupt people in their Torah discussions[

as for this thread, it may take me a while to get to the end of this thread but when i get there you will find a mod hat stating we are not debating terms and who believes what about Torah, ok everyone....by now we should all know and understand what THIS forum believes is expected of them in posting Torah discussions
One, don't derail, and two dont lable folks one law or two house or grace only, or non MJ when folks have a torah scroll...all these are violations in here.

Actually, most Messianic Jews do not use the term Torah and actually mean the Mosaic law. That is just plain confusing. And more uniquely a term used in One Law but not generalized in Messianic Judaism.

From the MJAA site:

The MJAA Believes: That the BIBLE, consisting of the Tenach (Old Covenant/Testament) and the later writings commonly known as the B'rit Hadasha (New Testament/Covenant), is the only infallible and authoritative word of God. We recognize its divine inspiration, and accept its teachings as our final authority in all matters of faith and practice (Deuteronomy 6:4-9; Proverbs 3:1-6; Psalm 119:89, 105; Isaiah 48:12-16; Romans 8:14-17; II Timothy 2:15, 3:16-17).






Messianic Jewish people hold the Torah in high respect, but that does not mean Messianic Jewish people believe the Mosaic law carried forward as a unit into the New Covenant.

MJ does practice Jewish tradition, but that is one of the differences in Messianic Judaism. It is based on Jewish culture, and worship is more Jewish. It is a comfortable place for Jewish believers. Torah and tradition are intertwined but Torah does not mean Mosaic law/covenant. It means Torah, the five books of Moses.

When you have a people who were raised in the Torah as the definition of their religious beliefs, the Torah will be held in high regard. The Torah is the words of God. The Nach is the revelation of God and the NT is the words and revelation of God.

Unlike people who come to know Yeshua from other religions, such a Buddhism, the basis of their belief is unbiblical. Jewish people whose basis of belief is biblical, the only real turning a Jewish person does in their belief is turn from unbelief in Jesus as the Messiah to belief in Jesus the Messiah. Even the Messiah is a Jewish belief but Judaism rejected and did not recognize Yeshua as the Messiah, which was wrong. So, Jewish believers are never anti-Torah. Jewish believers see changes in the Mosaic law and the New Covenant, but that never makes a Jewish believer anti-Torah.

From the MJAA:

Messianic Judaism is a Biblically based movement of people who, as committed Jews, believe in Yeshua (Jesus) as the Jewish Messiah of Israel of whom the Jewish Law and Prophets spoke.

To many this seems a glaring contradiction. Christians are Christians, Jews are decidedly not Christian. So goes the understanding that has prevailed through nearly two thousand years of history.
Messianic Jews call this a mistaken - and even anti-Scriptural - understanding. Historical and Biblical evidence demonstrates that following Yeshua was initially an entirely Jewish concept. Decades upon decades of persecution, division, and confused theology all contributed to the dichotomy between Jews and believers in Yeshua that many take for granted today.



I know you attend a large Messianic synagogue but being one of the largest does not mean it is representative of the beliefs of Messianic Judaism as a whole, or defines Messianic Judaism as a whole. It means that your Messianic synagogue, if it is affiliated with the MJAA or the UMJC, and the AMC, probably falls somewhere within the spectrum of Messianic Judaism.

Actually, there are larger groups and synagogues which call themselves Messianic. These which are larger are almost all Gentile, and are a part of other groups like Two House or originated as Two House.

Tim Hegg is not considered to be a Messianic Judaism teacher as the largest Messianic Judaism organizations have written against his theology.
Tim Hegg left FFOZ because FFOZ moved from outside of Messianic Judaism to working with Messianic Judaism.

 

[GuardianShua]

Deleted.

 

[Tishri1]

MOD HAT closing this thread till staff can go thru and answer all the posts and get caught up

 

[Tishri1]

My point in the post you are responding to, is the Messianic Jews grew up with the Torah defining our religion and beliefs. To restrict Messianic Jews from talking about Torah because we do not believe in 'Torah observance' would be offensive and overly restrictive.

Of course we talk about the Torah (remember Torah is not equivalent to Mosaic law). And not just in our congregations. Having grown up Jewish, my discussion with other people include things I did when I was a child. My former synagogues. My family practices. And my understanding of verse in Torah in relationship with Yeshua.

It is the norm for Messianic Jews to talk about Torah, not necessarily the Mosaic law.

In case anyone still doesn't get what the issue is, we are not going to tolerate derailing Torah discussions about Torah with those who for what ever reason are challenging the OPs observance as being not enough or not nessessary and taking an other wise discussion about some aspect of Torah or tradition and taking it off topic. I hope everyone understand that now.

 

[Tishri1]

As far as the Talmud, I would find it difficult to argue that it is a requirement to hold the Talmud in a place of honor. While the Talmud is mostly Jewish style debates of varying opinions, there are some opinions which are not highly regarded. So that would depend on what 'honor' means.

This is from a statement of faith:

We recognize the value of traditional Jewish literature, but only where it is supported by or conformable to the Word of God. We regard it as in no way binding upon life or faith.

And for MJ's, maybe MJ's hold to some sort of personal or public observance of Torah or Jewish tradition.

Pam means Torah not Talmud .

 

[Tishri1]

Ok I want to jump in and say this right here is a great post! It doesn't accuse or insult anyone or teach or debate, it's just sharing info and offering a friendly encouraging word to the member, nothing offensive just sharing....loved it!

Messianic Mommy,

First of all, I want to say I do respect you, as I see you as trying to be balanced. Of course, I do agree and disagree with some of the things you have said.

I am being outspoken on the board as I was on this board for only a few days, and was being called all kinds of things. I was told I should just call myself a Christian and leave this board.... etc. etc. etc.

I participate on other Messianic Judaism boards where we do not have this issue. These are boards with differing observance levels. On the other boards, Messianic Jews are the moderators, and I think we are more accustomed to varying observance levels. Maybe another advantage is that most of the Gentiles on the board come to learn about Messianic Judaism, and with the Gentiles, we explain more of the tradition and answer questions on the law, and Messianic Jews engage in other discussions.

The difference here is that Messianic Jews are not as hard line on demanding that everyone be as observant. So, the Messianic Jews who have come to this board have taken a beating. And some very honest Messianic Gentiles, have also taken a beating on this law issue. Messianic Judaism is not about keeping the law. It is about worshipping and serving Yeshua, in a Jewish way, and since that is a wide range, what is more important is to encourage a person to follow Yeshua.

As far as Jewish people who come from a Reform background. In my pre-Jesus days, one job I had was as a teacher in the synagogues schools. I was hired for a while by a Reform congregation to teach the Jewish children the Mosaic law (these were about to be Bar Mitzvah/Bat Mitzvah). I am familiar with the knowledge of Reform about the law, because it was my job to give them an Orthodox introduction so they would know more of the diversity in Judaism.

These Reform Jewish kids did not grow up in Kosher homes, so one of the first things I taught was how to keep a Kosher home and prepare Kosher food. This is the kind of basic many Reform Jews may not know but that doesn't mean these kids are ignorant of the Law. They practice many other laws. They may not know how to wrap the Tefillin, or the prayers to say while putting them on. They may not know the outward physical part done while davening, or the complete prayers, but they do know much of the prayer as most is said in groups reading in a Reform service.

I personally think one of the saddest thing I have seen is a very new Jewish believer who became involved in a group which said the law was most important, and proceeded to teach this new Jewish believer the various intricacies of the Mosaic law, of course their version of it. This was sad because as a New Jewish believer, they were missing some of the most important parts of the education of a New Messianic Jewish believer. They knew almost nothing about Yeshua, other then He is the Messiah and Savior. They needed to learn what is the single most important thing in Messianic Judaism. They needed to learn about Yeshua. And prayer other then repetitive prayer. And reading the NT. And as a Jewish believer, they needed to learn how to deal with the trials of being a Jewish believer, with family rejection and community rejection. Because of the rejection, and the likelihood of running into anti-missionaries whose purpose is to dissuade them from believing on Jesus, they needed to have a solid grounding in the Tenakh and NT, so they knew what they believed, why, and could defend the faith in Yeshua.

 

[Tishri1]

Absolutely great advice! Thanks Pam, and also let get back to the op, does everyone get what we are trying to fix in here, maybe someone could summaries the op in your own words?

somehow what i am saying here in this forum over the last several days is just consistantly not getting thru, is being misinterpreted, and quite frankly is being twisted to an entirely different meaning on multiple occasions by multiple members, than what i have plainly stated.

and i'm sitting here not really sure why that is happening.

so could everyone here please pay closer attention to what it is that you are responding to, and not respond from your gut reactions?
we might get a bit further along if we could have some co-operation.

 

[Tishri1]

Ok, they are my opinion from my experience with people from many different Messianic Judaism organizations and congregations. But IMO, what you said is 'not true', is also your opinion.

I do try to stay more general when I am speaking about a wide range of Messianic Judaism synagogues and people. And, the only place I hear 'Torah' used when people don't really mean the Torah but mean the Mosaic law, is among Two House, CTOMC, and some in MBI used to or other groups like that. I always found it confusing as their use of Torah seemed inconsistent and foreign.

In Judaism, we talked about mitzvot, or being frum, or Shomer ????. Or living a Jewish lifestyle.

Ani's advice might just have been the answer to what is happening in here as far as disruption goes, if everyone prefece their statements with IMO or this might be true in certain circumstances, but I have had this experience, or anything that acknowledges the other persons experience as well as offering your own, that would be sooooooo much more gracious than what we have been seeing that looks like debate and disruption. Thanks Ani for offering that advice

 

[Tishri1]

It is isn't it!!!!

I listened to the audio and he showed the differences between believers, Messianic believers and Torah positive Messianic believers. Exactly like the other video that got ripped.

He said that most Torah positive Messianic believers doesn't recite the Shema in the morning from his 17 years experience as well as tefillin etc.as examples.

Interesting I'm starting to maybe get an understanding about the quote I posted from the believer who said we are not under the rule. It's not about being ruled it's about the greatest commandment anyway. Difference of being ruled or doing so out of love. The ones that say we are no longer ruled by the Law of Moses say just that we are not ruled but we do it because out of love.

We are not very different is the moral of the story. We agree on almost all of them anyway.

He then refers to a Rabbi with a capitol r what's the greatest commandment we should follow.

We should ALL listen to the end of the sermon. We should ALL love one another. We all have different views. As most Messianic leaders/rabbi's he doesn't tell believers how to follow the Laws.

Great audio thanks!

 

[Chaplain David]

Shalom Brothers and Sisters. How are you today?

 

[Tishri1]

I honestly can't remember the context anymore back when I posted that but you know I love you sis sooooo forget I got harsh and forgive me the tone....I think I was speaking to the universal "you" with that post

Now you are telling the members how they should post and that they aren't being fair?

Universally? Do you know the history of this symbol? Just because someone today has named it the 'grafted in' symbol does not mean that's what it originally stood for. It was found in Jerusalem, not outside of Judea where the Gentile churches were located.


Now you not only want your very own icon, but want to do away with another that we've had for many years because you don't like it?

It seems that you and 'sister Qnts' have quite an agenda for this forum. Change the name, change the icons, make new icons that you approve of........

I'm confused Tish, what is 'my new info'


Where did I say anyone had to leave? Why the animosity? Where did I compare anyone's Torah observance? I am not responsible for anyone's observance but my own. I think what many here are saying though is that we would like this one forum to be free from the condemnation that comes on all the other forums when you even have a Torah scroll. That you even keep Shabbat, that you eat kosher foods. Is that too much to ask?

This is really too much. Where did I suggest giving anyone funny names? By this statement you are basically comparing me to those who forced yellow stars on our people and I really don't appreciate that. I never said anything such as you are suggesting.

That's all I have been saying and I think others too.


This question is for everyoneNot sure which question was for everyone, but they all sounded like they were directed towards me, and with hostility and exasperation by the sound of it, I hope I'm wrong......

I don't see this as segregation, the two can post in peace as they agree. I thought this was the point of the thread?

It is plain to see that there are two distinct groups here. Just as Naomi had two daughters in law. This is the teachings I've heard in MJ.

Also I would like to mention that there are two members missing right now that should be allowed to post their position and points on this thread.
Visionary is missing (and you know why) and right now is in a Tornado warning and I hope is OK since we won't be able to hear for awhile. And Yedida is in the middle of a move and doesn't have internet right now.

You say it killed the forums, but the forum as it stands now is so 'lively' because of the debate between the two. Perhaps instead of a MJ only tag, maybe what's needed is a 'Soft Debate only' tag. Something with a description posted in the SOP that explains that different sides can be presented but no name calling or judgement allowed.

As Qnts said, we Jews like to argue all the possibilities and see things from all angles. I think it's more about perception than anything.

 

[Chaplain David]

Praying for Visionary and everyone in the area of the tornado outbreak. Also, praying for Yedida.

 

[Chaplain David]

Absolutely great advice! Thanks Pam, and also let's get back to the op, does everyone get what we are trying to fix in here, maybe someone could summaries the op in your own words?

I asked a similar question yesterday and got a couple of little nibbles but the majority didn't answer so it's hard to get a sense for things. Why not let's give some feedback on Tish's question?

It'll help us see how we are doing better and provide good feedback to staff and members. I'll just bold and underline it above.

Shalom, David

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

As Qnts said, we Jews like to argue all the possibilities and see things from all angles. I think it's more about perception than anything

We Jews like to rock the boat. I definately think it's perception too. We are online in a forum and lots can get mixed up or mis perceived.