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Is Yeshua the Passover?

Lulav

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As Passover draws neigh, we have been having a family squabble about like who gets to sit next to the King in the Kingdom. As Yeshua told Salome, it was up to the Father to decide. The other ten were upset with the two. Isn't that like what's going on here? (Matthew 20)

Levi and Judah want to be on either side of Yeshua while the other 10 are pushed out, not even in the running, according to them anyway. But Yeshua said it was not up to them, or their mother, or even himself, but for the Father to chose.

So should we really be still arguing the same old thing?

Now if Yeshua is the Passover lamb of G-d the one that Abraham said the Father would provide, isn't it also necessary if you partake of the body to be also circumcised?

In a recently closed thread this part was ignored by some as to the position of the Ger.

If a stranger (from another nation) wished to partake of the commemoration of the thankfulness of salvation from slavery, they needed to be circumcised (if male). Once circumcised did that not bind them to the people of Israel?

Those who participate in the remembrance of Salvation, wither from Egypt or from Sin (which Egypt represents) then shouldn't they be circumcised?

If partaking of the matzah of Passover which represent sinlessness, then one needs be circumcised.
 

Lulav

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Yeshua (who is really Jesus Christ) fulfilled many biblical prophecies.

You mean, Jesus Christ is really Yeshua.;)

Not sure where you are going with this. The covenant act is perpetual, so is keeping Passover.
 
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Messianic Jewboy

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As Passover draws neigh, we have been having a family squabble about like who gets to sit next to the King in the Kingdom. As Yeshua told Salome, it was up to the Father to decide. The other ten were upset with the two. Isn't that like what's going on here? (Matthew 20)

Levi and Judah want to be on either side of Yeshua while the other 10 are pushed out, not even in the running, according to them anyway. But Yeshua said it was not up to them, or their mother, or even himself, but for the Father to chose.

So should we really be still arguing the same old thing?

Now if Yeshua is the Passover lamb of G-d the one that Abraham said the Father would provide, isn't it also necessary if you partake of the body to be also circumcised?

In a recently closed thread this part was ignored by some as to the position of the Ger.

If a stranger (from another nation) wished to partake of the commemoration of the thankfulness of salvation from slavery, they needed to be circumcised (if male). Once circumcised did that not bind them to the people of Israel?

Those who participate in the remembrance of Salvation, wither from Egypt or from Sin (which Egypt represents) then shouldn't they be circumcised?

If partaking of the matzah of Passover which represent sinlessness, then one needs be circumcised.

You only need to be circumcised in reference to the sacrifice, that's what The Pesach is, it's the sacrifice.
 
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mishkan

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Messianic Jewboy

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Right, so was Yeshua the sacrificial Lamb of G-d or not?

How does circumcision relate to Yeshua being the sacrificial Lamb of God? Circumcision only relates to the Temple and the sacrifice.
 
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Lulav

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And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof:.......................................



All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. 48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised , and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. 49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
 
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GuardianShua

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As Passover draws neigh, we have been having a family squabble about like who gets to sit next to the King in the Kingdom. As Yeshua told Salome, it was up to the Father to decide. The other ten were upset with the two. Isn't that like what's going on here? (Matthew 20)

Levi and Judah want to be on either side of Yeshua while the other 10 are pushed out, not even in the running, according to them anyway. But Yeshua said it was not up to them, or their mother, or even himself, but for the Father to chose.

So should we really be still arguing the same old thing?

Now if Yeshua is the Passover lamb of G-d the one that Abraham said the Father would provide, isn't it also necessary if you partake of the body to be also circumcised?In a recently closed thread this part was ignored by some as to the position of the Ger.

If a stranger (from another nation) wished to partake of the commemoration of the thankfulness of salvation from slavery, they needed to be circumcised (if male). Once circumcised did that not bind them to the people of Israel?

Those who participate in the remembrance of Salvation, wither from Egypt or from Sin (which Egypt represents) then shouldn't they be circumcised?

If partaking of the matzah of Passover which represent sinlessness, then one needs be circumcised.

Sodom is symbolic of sin and Egypt is symbolic of bondage. The Old Covenant involved circumcision. From this scripture below, what should we think?
Isaiah 1:14
Your New Moon feasts and your appointed festivals I hate with all my being. They have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them.
Zephaniah 3:18
“I will remove from you all who mourn over the loss of your appointed festivals, which is a burden and reproach for you.
Lamentations 2:6
He has laid waste his dwelling like a garden; he has destroyed his place of meeting. The LORD has made Zion forget her appointed festivals and her Sabbaths; in his fierce anger he has spurned both king and priest.
Hosea 2:11
I will stop all her celebrations: her yearly festivals, her New Moons, her Sabbath days—all her appointed festivals.
Amos 5:21
“I hate, I despise your religious festivals; your assemblies are a stench to me.
Psalm 40:6
Sacrifice and offering you did not desire— but a body you have prepared for me — burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require.
 
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Messianic Jewboy

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And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof:.......................................

The eating is the eating of the sacrifice. There's no Temple.
 
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Lulav

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The eating is the eating of the sacrifice. There's no Temple.
Marc I realize there's no temple, as I said in the OP in the imagery of the NT writings we are taught that Yeshua is the lamb of G-d. He tells us that the Passover bread is his body which is sacrificed for us. He also tells us to 'do this' (keep the Passover, eat the unleavened bread) in remembrance of his sacrifice.
 
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etZion

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As Passover draws neigh, we have been having a family squabble about like who gets to sit next to the King in the Kingdom. As Yeshua told Salome, it was up to the Father to decide. The other ten were upset with the two. Isn't that like what's going on here? (Matthew 20)

Levi and Judah want to be on either side of Yeshua while the other 10 are pushed out, not even in the running, according to them anyway. But Yeshua said it was not up to them, or their mother, or even himself, but for the Father to chose.

So should we really be still arguing the same old thing?

Now if Yeshua is the Passover lamb of G-d the one that Abraham said the Father would provide, isn't it also necessary if you partake of the body to be also circumcised?

In a recently closed thread this part was ignored by some as to the position of the Ger.

If a stranger (from another nation) wished to partake of the commemoration of the thankfulness of salvation from slavery, they needed to be circumcised (if male). Once circumcised did that not bind them to the people of Israel?

Those who participate in the remembrance of Salvation, wither from Egypt or from Sin (which Egypt represents) then shouldn't they be circumcised?

If partaking of the matzah of Passover which represent sinlessness, then one needs be circumcised.

Interesting points you raise... I am for circumcision and see its place, but the command regarding being circumcised is over eating the Lamb not the matzah, and the matzah only symbolizes.
 
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Jerushabelle

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Two questions:
1) Are you speaking of circumcision of the heart or the actual physical circumcision?
2) If you are speaking of the actual physical circumcision, are you stating that one needs must be circumcised in order to "participate in the remembrance of salvation" (the salvation we receive as a result of Yeshua's sacrifice on the cross)?
 
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Qnts2

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As Passover draws neigh, we have been having a family squabble about like who gets to sit next to the King in the Kingdom. As Yeshua told Salome, it was up to the Father to decide. The other ten were upset with the two. Isn't that like what's going on here? (Matthew 20)

Levi and Judah want to be on either side of Yeshua while the other 10 are pushed out, not even in the running, according to them anyway. But Yeshua said it was not up to them, or their mother, or even himself, but for the Father to chose.

So should we really be still arguing the same old thing?

Now if Yeshua is the Passover lamb of G-d the one that Abraham said the Father would provide, isn't it also necessary if you partake of the body to be also circumcised?

In a recently closed thread this part was ignored by some as to the position of the Ger.

If a stranger (from another nation) wished to partake of the commemoration of the thankfulness of salvation from slavery, they needed to be circumcised (if male). Once circumcised did that not bind them to the people of Israel?

Those who participate in the remembrance of Salvation, wither from Egypt or from Sin (which Egypt represents) then shouldn't they be circumcised?

If partaking of the matzah of Passover which represent sinlessness, then one needs be circumcised.


You are accurately stating that for a stranger to eat the Passover lamb, they must be ritually physically circumcised, which makes them a member of the people of Israel.

If a person is not ritually physically circumcised, they are cut off from the people, and not to partake of the lamb.

The Mosaic law Passover is in remembrance of what God did when He redeemed the children of Israel, bringing them out of the 'house of bondage' which is Egypt.

Since the Mosaic law says not to add to or take away from any commandment, this can not be altered.

So, Yeshua is called the Passover lamb. And the NT Passover is kept in remembrance of Him and what Jesus did to bring us out of the house of bondage.

Although we do not actually eat Yeshua the lamb, we symbolically recognize that it was the crucifixion of the body of Jesus, the broken matza.

If the Mosaic law forbids adding to or taking away from any command, and the NT Passover adds in remembrance of Yeshua, then the NT Passover is the Passover of a different covenant.

Plus, the Passover of the Mosaic law required the ritual physical circumcision, but the Passover of the NT requires a circumcision of the heart. Again, that would be taking away the requirement for the physical circumcision from the Mosaic law.

However, if the position is that Gentiles become a part of/members of Israel, and that the Mosaic law applies as in One Law for all, then Gentiles (male) would need to be ritually physically circumcised or they are cut off from the people of Israel per the law.
 
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mishkan

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You are accurately stating that for a stranger to eat the Passover lamb, they must be ritually physically circumcised, which makes them a member of the people of Israel.
True.

If a person is not ritually physically circumcised, they are cut off from the people, and not to partake of the lamb.
Also true.

The Mosaic law Passover is in remembrance of what God did when He redeemed the children of Israel, bringing them out of the 'house of bondage' which is Egypt.
Hey, we're three for three!

Since the Mosaic law says not to add to or take away from any commandment, this can not be altered.
Fundamentally, I would agree. We all know that things change somewhat, according to whether or not a sanctioned place of sacrifice exists.

So, Yeshua is called the Passover lamb. And the NT Passover is kept in remembrance of Him and what Jesus did to bring us out of the house of bondage.
I think this deserves some teasing out.

After the destruction of the first Temple, the seder was created in Babylon in order to provide a defined customary way of celebrating the Pesach in the absence of the sacrifices. The result is what we might call "a memorial of the memorial".

Once the Jews returned from captivity, and had a restored place of worship, there was a merger between the ancient sacrifices and the relatively recent seder. This process of blending the two continued until the destruction of the second Temple in 70 CE.

Since the destruction of the second Temple, we have simply gone back to the seder created in Babylonian captivity--the "memorial of the memorial". Since there is no actual sacrifice at this time, circumcision has become a moot point. Anybody who wishes to participate may do so.

Now, the standard rubric for a seder includes having the leader expand upon the basic story and the elements on the table as he sees fit. He may discuss current or recent political situations relevant to slavery and bondage (refuseniks, the holocaust), the four cups (each has a name and a meaning), or any other relevant topic.

In Yeshua's case, he applied the symbolism of the seder to his own life and death. We seriously err if we think he literally was regarded as a Passover sacrifice. But we do remember the death of our founder each year in the seder, "as often as you do this". In essence, we include his own midrash, applying the symbolism of the ancient Pesach to his own life and death. In addition, early Messianics seem to have added the ceremony of the burial and "resurrection" of the afikomen, so that the seder ends on a hopeful note, rather than the sour note of continued expulsion from the Land.

Although we do not actually eat Yeshua the lamb, we symbolically recognize that it was the crucifixion of the body of Jesus, the broken matza.
I find this statement a bit on the over-simplified side. What actually happens is, we celebrate a seder, with its original meaning of slavery, blondage, and redemption. We then take that meaning, and apply it to the otherwise meaningless death of an innocent man, Yeshua. As such, we can apply to him the role of Moses, the Deliverer; the Lamb who died for us; the Matzoh, broken for us; etc. Yeshua even made use of the third cup, already known as the "Cup of Redemption", and likened it to a covenantal sharing, which would inaugurate the Promises of the New/Renewed Covenant described in Yirmeyahu/Jeremiah 31.

If the Mosaic law forbids adding to or taking away from any command, and the NT Passover adds in remembrance of Yeshua, then the NT Passover is the Passover of a different covenant.
This is simply inaccurate, as can be seen by the above. We do not actually perform the Passover ordinance today, as described in the Torah. The whole thing is a modified remembrance of the need to perform that memorial... someday.

Plus, the Passover of the Mosaic law required the ritual physical circumcision, but the Passover of the NT requires a circumcision of the heart. Again, that would be taking away the requirement for the physical circumcision from the Mosaic law.
The issue of circumcision related to being in a clean state, enabling one to participate in the sacrifice on the Temple grounds. It was not about sitting and eating a meal. Of course, that point is now moot, since we have no Temple and no sacrifice.

However, if the position is that Gentiles become a part of/members of Israel, and that the Mosaic law applies as in One Law for all, then Gentiles (male) would need to be ritually physically circumcised or they are cut off from the people of Israel per the law.
There is some truth to this. The question becomes one of defining what constitutes a legitimate conversion process. Tractate Yevamot in the Talmud discusses this at length. At the very least, there must be a period of something more than a year, during which the conversion candidate studies Judaism and learns what an oath of allegience to Israel would mean to his life. During that time, there is no such concept as being "cut off", since the individual remains a Gentile candidate for conversion. But he may participate in communal fellowship and study, as per the Acts 15 council decision.
 
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Qnts2

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I think this deserves some teasing out.

After the destruction of the first Temple, the seder was created in Babylon in order to provide a defined customary way of celebrating the Pesach in the absence of the sacrifices. The result is what we might call "a memorial of the memorial".

Once the Jews returned from captivity, and had a restored place of worship, there was a merger between the ancient sacrifices and the relatively recent seder. This process of blending the two continued until the destruction of the second Temple in 70 CE.

Since the destruction of the second Temple, we have simply gone back to the seder created in Babylonian captivity--the "memorial of the memorial". Since there is no actual sacrifice at this time, circumcision has become a moot point. Anybody who wishes to participate may do so.

Actually I did not mention the actual sacrifice of the lamb because without the passover lamb served in the meal, the prohibition against an uncircumcised person partaking doesn't apply.

I am not really considering the altered diaspora Passover. I am looking at the differences between the NT Passover and the Mosaic law Passover.

Now, the standard rubric for a seder includes having the leader expand upon the basic story and the elements on the table as he sees fit. He may discuss current or recent political situations relevant to slavery and bondage (refuseniks, the holocaust), the four cups (each has a name and a meaning), or any other relevant topic.

In Yeshua's case, he applied the symbolism of the seder to his own life and death. We seriously err if we think he literally was regarded as a Passover sacrifice. But we do remember the death of our founder each year in the seder, "as often as you do this". In essence, we include his own midrash, applying the symbolism of the ancient Pesach to his own life and death. In addition, early Messianics seem to have added the ceremony of the burial and "resurrection" of the afikomen, so that the seder ends on a hopeful note, rather than the sour note of continued expulsion from the Land.

While there can be traditions, as long as these traditions do not add to or take away from the law. When the law says to 'tell your children', we are to tell the children about what God did. To sing some songs was not commanded, so it doesn't matter how many songs we sing. There is no command or prohibition. When the law says to do this in remembrance of what God did, then Passover is a remembrance of what God did when He brought the children of Israel out of Egypt, and to add a second remembrance is actually adding to that command. The NT Passover is a remembrance of Yeshua redeeming those who believe from the penalty of sin, and the Mosaic law Passover is a remembrance of God redeeming the children of Israel from bondage in Egypt.

I find this statement a bit on the over-simplified side. What actually happens is, we celebrate a seder, with its original meaning of slavery, blondage, and redemption. We then take that meaning, and apply it to the otherwise meaningless death of an innocent man, Yeshua. As such, we can apply to him the role of Moses, the Deliverer; the Lamb who died for us; the Matzoh, broken for us; etc. Yeshua even made use of the third cup, already known as the "Cup of Redemption", and likened it to a covenantal sharing, which would inaugurate the Promises of the New/Renewed Covenant described in Yirmeyahu/Jeremiah 31.

Right. We are adding to the command, which is to remember what God did in redeeming the children of Israel. It is now about Yeshua.

This is simply inaccurate, as can be seen by the above. We do not actually perform the Passover ordinance today, as described in the Torah. The whole thing is a modified remembrance of the need to perform that memorial... someday.


The issue of circumcision related to being in a clean state, enabling one to participate in the sacrifice on the Temple grounds. It was not about sitting and eating a meal. Of course, that point is now moot, since we have no Temple and no sacrifice.


There is some truth to this. The question becomes one of defining what constitutes a legitimate conversion process. Tractate Yevamot in the Talmud discusses this at length. At the very least, there must be a period of something more than a year, during which the conversion candidate studies Judaism and learns what an oath of allegience to Israel would mean to his life. During that time, there is no such concept as being "cut off", since the individual remains a Gentile candidate for conversion. But he may participate in communal fellowship and study, as per the Acts 15 council decision.

Actually, since Gentile believers do not go thru conversion, that is a moot point.

Gentiles who come to believe on Yeshua are members of the body of Messiah, and part of the assembly of believers in Yeshua. They are not a part of Israel, as they are not circumcised.

In Judaism, at the Temple, the Gentiles (male and female) could not enter beyond the court of the Gentiles. But in the NT, the Holy Spirit indwells equally Jew and Gentile. Gentiles are full members of the assembly of Yeshua.
 
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etZion

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I am not really considering the altered diaspora Passover. I am looking at the differences between the NT Passover and the Mosaic law Passover.

That is your problem, Yeshua did not keep the Passover that year, instead He kept a tradition passed down known as a Seder.

While there can be traditions, as long as these traditions do not add to or take away from the law. When the law says to 'tell your children', we are to tell the children about what God did. To sing some songs was not commanded, so it doesn't matter how many songs we sing. There is no command or prohibition. When the law says to do this in remembrance of what God did, then Passover is a remembrance of what God did when He brought the children of Israel out of Egypt, and to add a second remembrance is actually adding to that command. The NT Passover is a remembrance of Yeshua redeeming those who believe from the penalty of sin, and the Mosaic law Passover is a remembrance of God redeeming the children of Israel from bondage in Egypt.

Then you would have to conclude, that the whole Seder(tradition) in your opinion is adding to the word of God. Would you agree, if not please get detailed, as your conclusion is contradicting in my opinion.
 
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Qnts2

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That is your problem, Yeshua did not keep the Passover that year, instead He kept a tradition passed down known as a Seder.



Then you would have to conclude, that the whole Seder(tradition) in your opinion is adding to the word of God. Would you agree, if not please get detailed, as your conclusion is contradicting in my opinion.

God gave commands, and didn't always give details as to how to keep those commands. The answer in Judaism is that He gave the details in the Oral Torah. I can't find any evidence of an oral Torah.

So if God did not provide the exact details, a step by step, then there must be other ways to fill in the details. Either, a person individually does the requirements from their heart, or, there is a centralized method of agreement for the entire community.

The seder is the community agreement (set by the courts of judges). Contained in the seder is all of the commands. At the time of Yeshua, there was an agreed upon seder, which based on a comparison between the account of the Last Supper and the Mosaic law, fulfilled all the commands plus included many of the traditions which are also practiced today, such as reclining at the meal and the use of multiple cups of wine.

Yeshua did not object to traditions. Had the traditions which He did, been a violation of the law, then Yeshua would not be sin free. There is no objection to traditions as long as they do not violate the law. Jesus did object to adding to or taking away from the commands. So traditions are ok, but adding to or taking away from the commands is bad. The command for Passover, is to do it in remembrance of what God did when He brought the children of Israel out of Egypt. Adding another thing to remember would be adding to the command to remember one specific thing.

Where there is a change of priesthood, there is also a change of the law. The celebration of Passover changed, but that is ok. Only those who have Yeshua as the New High Priest celebrate the NT Passover.
 
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