veiling and the book of enoch

[SummaScriptura]

<snip>You also raised the interesting point of Jews thinking angels could sin, to which I compound the observation that they say satan isn't a fallen angel and there is no such thing. There is forgiveness and redemption for Angels now?<snip>

According to the prevailing ideas about angels among Christians of various stripes, angels are viewed as spirits, without materiality. Western ideas about the differences between human carnality and angelic spirituality make the idea of angelic-human copulation seem impossible. In the Jewish writings from the period of 2nd-Temple Judaism no such problem can be detected. There is a consensus among Jewish writers from that period that angelic spirituality as well as angelic carnality were both simultaneously real, and not mutually exclusive. The writer of the Book of Jubilees, (another book from that period) even speaks of angels having been created in a circumcised state from the beginning.

Copyright © 2006-2012, R.I. Burns All rights reserved including print and electronic versions.

About Satan, prior to the time of Christ, Jews believed in many "satans", or adversaries. These satans were viewed as an organized unified group of spiritual evil, both angels and unclean spirits. As time passed there was a growing concensus that their leader, Beliar or Belial, could be referred to as the lead satan, or Satan. If a Jew denies fallen angels explain spiritual evil they do so by only accepting the Hebrew Scriptures as authoritative. The Hebrew Scriptures do not contain a well-worked-out Satanology partly because it had adequately been done in their other books which would later be dropped from usae after 70 AD.

www.TheBookofEnoch.info

 

[Booko]

It is interesting though, that a veil is most effective from the top down view. I'm not suggesting this means that was it's original purpose, it just makes it seem a little more plausible. Any way you look at this, the mere suggestion that Angels could be tempted and sin in this manner is downright disturbing! I mean, what prevents it today?

LOL I just got the most disturbing image of an angel using the Internet to um watch porn.

Yeah, disturbing. I mean, good luck to the Angels if they're on the Internetz they could find a lot of temptation there.

 

[razeontherock]

Yes. Georgia is in the Middle East of the Deep South, and we say y'all. (And do you know the plural of y'all?)

Yins for $1,000, Alex

Which raises the fine point of grammar that y'all can be singular. Not many are edumacated enough to no thayat.

We could probably start a whole thread just to compare notes on what angels might or might not be, according to religions that refer to them.

Surely! From what you quoted, it appears Baha'i uses the word to describe something distinct from what Christianity does. Whether we use it to refer to the same thing Jews do or not, i will defer.

 

[razeontherock]

LOL I just got the most disturbing image of an angel using the Internet to um watch porn.

But all the girls were veiled, right? Surely then it would all be ok.

 

[merryheart]

Yes. Georgia is in the Middle East of the Deep South, and we say y'all. (And do you know the plural of y'all?)

its "all y'all" ain't it

 

[razeontherock]

its "all y'all" ain't it

How could I forget alyawl? Yins is West Virginyyian, idn't it?

 

[merryheart]

I think in ancient times, when people were in mouring and covered their faces in shame they essentially threw a cloth over their head which also covered their face. Isn't that the way you understand it? The Watchers were wearing a veil in this passage, I think.

a clip from "The Badge of Guilt and Shame" by Katharine Bushnell in support of this

When men put on a head covering, it was to indicate mourning, guilt, humiliation or shame as David did when he fled from Absalom. “So David went up. . .he had his head covered and went barefoot. And all the people who were with him covered their heads. . .” (II Samuel 15:30) The whole scene is one of intense humiliation and acknowledgement of guilt. Again, when Absalom is slain, David covers his head in grief. When Haman saw Mordecai’s elevation to honor (Esther 6:12), Haman hastened to his house mourning, and having his head covered.” Again, he fell under the king’s displeasure, “ . . .they covered Haman’s face.” (Esther 7:8). In Jeremiah 14:3-4, the nobles “ . . .were ashamed and confounded and covered their heads,” in the time God visits them in judgment with drought. “ The plowmen were ashamed; they covered their heads.”

The Jews considered the veil a sign of shame and humiliation, even for women, and only indirectly a sign of subordination. “ Why does a man go abroad with his head not covered, but women with their heads covered” is asked. R. Joshua said, “It is as when one transgresseth, and is made ashamed; she therefore goes with her head veiled,” (Bereshith Rab. Sec.17). Also, this thought accords with the Talmudic teaching that of the ten curses pronounced upon Eve for her sin, the 7th provides that she “dares not appear in public with her head uncovered.”

 

[razeontherock]

So all Arabs that wear a headcovering do so out of shame?

 

[merryheart]

So all Arabs that wear a headcovering do so out of shame?

no, the arabs i talk to all seem to think it is for protection unlike the jews

 

[Booko]

its "all y'all" ain't it

Yup, sure is!

My niece came to visit from Michigan some years ago, and we took her on a trip north of ATL into the Appalachians where the accent gets a bit more hill country and therefore what a Yankee thinks all "Southern accents" are. We stopped to eat at a Waffle House, and when she got back in the car she made some disrespectful comments about the waitress' thick accent.

I pointed out that *she* was the one with the "funny accent" here, and asked her why she would ever refer to a bunch of her girlfriends as you *guys*.

Oh...this thread was about Enoch...sheesh we have gone off track again.

 

[SanFrank]

“The Son of Man”
This title for the heavenly one in Enoch’s vision, is found in Enoch only in The Book of the Parables, where it occurs 16 times. This title is echoed throughout the four gospels in the New Testament, where Jesus Christ is the Son of Man.

"There was great joy amongst them, and they blessed and glorified and extolled because the name of that Son of Man had been revealed unto them." (Enoch 69:26)

Of the more than 100 places in the Hebrew scriptures in which the term “son of man” is used, only one in the Book of Daniel is clearly referring to the Messiah,

"I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed." (Daniel 7:13-14)

Even in this the single messianic use of the term “son of man” in the Hebrew scriptures, the indefinite article “a” is used by translators to show the term is not so much a title, rather a description of how Messiah appeared to Daniel; Messiah had something that looked like a human nature when Daniel saw him. All other references to the term “son of man” in the Hebrew Old Testament do not refer to Messiah; more than 90 of these occur in the Book of Ezekiel and refer to Ezekiel himself.

If you were to ask the average Bible-believing Christian to whom does the Bible refer when it uses the term 'the Son of Man'? you will surely get the answer, Jesus Christ. How is it that a description of Israel's Messiah-to-come used once in the Hebrew scriptures, became one of the most common titles used by Jesus Christ for himself in the New Testament? In Matthew's gospel the term is used nearly 30 times, in Luke's Gospel, more than 25 times. Mark's and John's gospels also use the term, but slightly less frequently. In total, the gospels refer to Jesus as “the Son of Man” more than 80 times; in almost every case, the term is used by Jesus to refer to himself. It is notable that Jesus does not appear to make an effort to explain what the term means. From this we gather, the term had some commonly shared meaning among his listeners.

This raises an interesting question, how would Jesus' hearers have understood the term which he was in the habit of using for himself, if Israel's Messiah is referred to as “one like a son of man” only once in the Hebrew scriptures? Is it possible that both Jesus and his hearers shared another source by which they understood the term?

As it turns out, there was such a source, a book containing many references to the Son of Man, a book which we now know was in fairly wide circulation in Jesus' day, which is not currently found in the Old Testament of Western Bibles based upon the Hebrew Scriptures. Popular familiarity with the prophecies contained in the Book of Enoch may have been the reason Jesus did not need to explain His use of the term.

Consider these amazing examples:

"I asked the angel who went with me and showed me all the hidden things, concerning that Son of Man, who he was, and whence he was, and why he went with the Head of Days? And he answered and said unto me: this is the Son of Man who hath righteousness, with whom dwelleth righteousness, and who revealeth all the treasures of that which is hidden, because the Lord of Spirits hath chosen him, and whose lot hath the pre-eminence before the Lord of Spirits in uprightness for ever." (Enoch 46:2-3)

"At that hour that Son of Man was named in the presence of the Lord of Spirits, and his name before the Head of Days. Yea, before the sun and the signs were created, before the stars of the heaven were made, his name was named before the Lord of Spirits. He shall be a staff to the righteous whereon to stay themselves and not fall, and he shall be the light of the gentiles, and the hope of those who are troubled of heart. All who dwell on earth shall fall down and worship before him, and will praise and bless and celebrate with song the Lord of Spirits. And for this reason hath he been chosen and hidden before him, before the creation of the world and for evermore." (Enoch 48:2-6)

"The angel came to me and greeted me with his voice, and said unto me 'this is the Son of Man who is born unto righteousness, and righteousness abides over him, and the righteousness of the Head of Days forsakes him not.' And he said unto me: 'he proclaims unto thee peace in the name of the world to come; for from hence has proceeded peace since the creation of the world, and so shall it be unto thee for ever and for ever and ever. And all shall walk in his ways since righteousness never forsaketh him: with him will be their dwelling-places, and with him their heritage, and they shall not be separated from him for ever and ever and ever. And so there shall be length of days with that Son of Man, and the righteous shall have peace and an upright way in the name of the Lord of Spirits for ever and ever.'” (Enoch 71:14-16)

Scattered throughout the Book of the Parables, are many passages concerning this heavenly person called the Righteous One, Elect One, Anointed One and Son of Man.

Copyright © 2006-2012, R.I. Burns
All rights reserved

 

[razeontherock]

no, the arabs i talk to all seem to think it is for protection unlike the jews

Protection from sandstorms, protection from lusty angel's peering eyes, or what?

 

[SanFrank]

The Book of Enoch expands on the Genesis 6:1-8 passage, telling a story about fallen "watcher" angels who took women and mated with them, and taught them sorcery. That the children which were born of them were ravenous and evil and that they consumed all the food, all the animals, and were consuming humans as well. That the flood was sent to destroy them. That there was continued mixing also after the flood among the Canaanites. if there were any truth in that story at all - even the smallest amount - or even if a people strongly believed that there was, i can certainly understand why they would want to hide their women. (It doesnt mean that I think they still should - but it does give a better motive for why it exists)

Some claim this as the reason for the Lord choosing a people, Israel, for keeping a pure line till the Messiah's arrival and for re-establishing monotheism.

You could view Israel's force coming out of Egypt, as strong enough to battle and wipe out the new alien breeds living in Canaan; so the amorites, Og, amalekites, rephilim

 

[razeontherock]

Oh...this thread was about Enoch...sheesh we have gone off track again.

Enoch had an accent and said alyawl ... ungodly types need convincin' of all the ungodly stuff y'all have ungodly committed. Prolly with a few more ungodlies thrown in just fer good measure

 

[smaneck]

If a Jew denies fallen angels explain spiritual evil they do so by only accepting the Hebrew Scriptures as authoritative. The Hebrew Scriptures do not contain a well-worked-out Satanology partly because it had adequately been done in their other books which would later be dropped from usae after 70 AD.

That could not possibly be the reason why because the Hebrew Scriptures were written long before the Apocrypha ones you are referring to. These were mostly written in Greek during the Hellenistic period. What your analysis fails to consider is that Judaism at the time had fallen under the influence of Zoroastrian ideas regarding God vs. the Devil, Heaven and Hell, the Resurrection and the Judgement Day.

 

[merryheart]

Protection from sandstorms, protection from lusty angel's peering eyes, or what?

so that was my original question if the notion that women need to be protected originates with "lusty angels"

afterall - Canaan was said to still have these after the flood (Jubilees?)

My experience with Arabs is that when they speak of the need to protect their women, their argument goes beyond logic and enters a deeply held belief that has come down as a tradition. None has been particularly enthused with my notion that this is the origin... but... for me, to think so, makes the motivation somewhat easier to deal with than the notion that women need to wear it to control the lust of men.

 

[smaneck]

Surely! From what you quoted, it appears Baha'i uses the word to describe something distinct from what Christianity does. Whether we use it to refer to the same thing Jews do or not, i will defer.

Perhaps not as distinct as you might imagine. Note Clement of Alexandria's comment on that passage from Corinthians:

"By the angels he means righteous and virtuous men. Let her be veiled then, that she may not lead them to stumble into fornication." (Fragments: Oecumenius from Bk. III on 1 Cor. 11:10)

 

[SanFrank]

I hope to have my book out this spring...

The Book of Enoch: Messianic Prophecy Edition

I hope to get a chance to read more. My last copy of enoch had witchcraft logos and eerie font styles on the front cover and book binder that kept most christians away... something to think about.

 

[razeontherock]

That could not possibly be the reason why because the Hebrew Scriptures were written long before the Apocrypha ones you are referring to. These were mostly written in Greek during the Hellenistic period. What your analysis fails to consider is that Judaism at the time had fallen under the influence of Zoroastrian ideas regarding God vs. the Devil, Heaven and Hell, the Resurrection and the Judgement Day.

Susan, this is logic fail. Messianic Jews toss that "hellenized" word around as if it were an answer to everything, but Jesus Himself taught what you are denouncing, and quoted Enoch repeatedly. He did not show up returning Jews to some master race status, but instead we have the story of the woman at the well!

All too often people fail to grasp just how significant that one event really was. How many smashed taboos can you count? I think an honest look reveals Judgment Day to be the oldest Prophecy, with hints at the Resurrection laced throughout all time.

 

[razeontherock]

but... for me, to think so, makes the motivation somewhat easier to deal with than the notion that women need to wear it to control the lust of men.

I was thinking I could come up with something really creepy to say that would help you keep this on the purely human level. I can't do it; there must be something to this "Salvation" stuff after all?