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Rainbows!

juvenissun

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Could you elaborate? Could you also comment on why you're bothering with sciencey sounding explanations?

**All** Biblical descriptions about the nature are scientifically significant. That is why.

From science, particularly geological science, I could not see the possibility of a global flood happened in the past 10,000 years as it is described in the Bible. But I do see such a possibility in the geological history of the earth. The wonderful thing is that if the earth were flooded globally, the process would be very very similar to what's described in the Bible. The Biblical description is simply too close to what could actually happen. Without modern geological knowledge, I don't think such an imagination is possible.

Of course, the rainbow is a small feature in the consequences of the whole process. However, rainbow is indeed a very critical feature to the weather/climate conditions of a planet. The earth is probably the only planet, which shows rainbow in the solar system. And I am sure that it did not start from the beginning.
 
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The Nihilist

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**All** Biblical descriptions about the nature are scientifically significant. That is why.

From science, particularly geological science, I could not see the possibility of a global flood happened in the past 10,000 years as it is described in the Bible. But I do see such a possibility in the geological history of the earth. The wonderful thing is that if the earth were flooded globally, the process would be very very similar to what's described in the Bible. The Biblical description is simply too close to what could actually happen. Without modern geological knowledge, I don't think such an imagination is possible.
I have no idea what you're talking about. You think it's amazing that the world could have at one point been flooded because a flood was in the bible?

Of course, the rainbow is a small feature in the consequences of the whole process. However, rainbow is indeed a very critical feature to the weather/climate conditions of a planet. The earth is probably the only planet, which shows rainbow in the solar system. And I am sure that it did not start from the beginning.
Let me refer you to what I said about pretending that rainbows are mysterious.
 
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juvenissun

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I have no idea what you're talking about. You think it's amazing that the world could have at one point been flooded because a flood was in the bible?


Let me refer you to what I said about pretending that rainbows are mysterious.

It is not that hard to see what I said: The earth was once flooded (scientific understanding). The process of that flood was well described in the Bible. These are two separated things. But they matched. I suggest you drop this flood issue. It confuses you.

About the rainbow: if you were an alien and visited the solar system, you will be attracted by the rainbow on the earth, because it is unique. Mysterious or not. Even you consider all the known planets in other solar systems so far, none of them seems to have rainbow either.
 
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The Nihilist

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It is not that hard to see what I said: The earth was once flooded (scientific understanding). The process of that flood was well described in the Bible. These are two separated things. But they matched. I suggest you drop this flood issue. It confuses you.
To my knowledge, there is no evidence that the world has ever been flooded, and therefore was not described in the bible. If I'm incorrect and it was flooded at some point, I doubt very much that you can show that it was done in 40 days and 40 nights. If you can show otherwise, please do. Remember to cite your sources this time.


About the rainbow: if you were an alien and visited the solar system, you will be attracted by the rainbow on the earth, because it is unique. Mysterious or not. Even you consider all the known planets in other solar systems so far, none of them seems to have rainbow either.
It's not clear to me that that's true. The mists at the bottom of a waterfall can form a rainbow. Similarly, as the ice of an approaching comet melts and is blown away by solar winds, it's absolutely conceivable that a rainbow could form. Additionally, there's some evidence that both Venus and Mars at one time had liquid water on their surfaces, but that's up for debate. In any case, if you're going to make a claim as bold as rainbows are unique to earth, you're going to have to produce some better evidence than that you think it's so.
Besides, aliens could be colorblind.
 
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juvenissun

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To my knowledge, there is no evidence that the world has ever been flooded, and therefore was not described in the bible. If I'm incorrect and it was flooded at some point, I doubt very much that you can show that it was done in 40 days and 40 nights. If you can show otherwise, please do. Remember to cite your sources this time.



It's not clear to me that that's true. The mists at the bottom of a waterfall can form a rainbow. Similarly, as the ice of an approaching comet melts and is blown away by solar winds, it's absolutely conceivable that a rainbow could form. Additionally, there's some evidence that both Venus and Mars at one time had liquid water on their surfaces, but that's up for debate. In any case, if you're going to make a claim as bold as rainbows are unique to earth, you're going to have to produce some better evidence than that you think it's so.
Besides, aliens could be colorblind.

There is a limited amount of water needed to flood the earth. So, given the input rate of flow, then the time of input can be calculated. If we believe the 40-day/night number is true, then the rate of water input can also be calculated. In any case, since this incidence will not happen again, we would not know the real answer. However, a theoretical modeling is still informative. Is the time of input more critical or the rate of input more critical? I would say it is the time. Because we do not know HOW did the water come to the surface, even Gen 7 gives key descriptions. If the time is known, then we will be able to model the details, such as how much water stored in the air, etc.

How do we know another global flood is not possible again? Gen 9 says: the rainbow is the sign. As long as the rainbow exists, there will be no more global flood. What a great scientific statement.

The rainbow is all the evidences you need. If you do not understand it, that does not mean the evidence is not there.
 
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The Nihilist

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There is a limited amount of water needed to flood the earth. So, given the input rate of flow, then the time of input can be calculated. If we believe the 40-day/night number is true, then the rate of water input can also be calculated. In any case, since this incidence will not happen again, we would not know the real answer. However, a theoretical modeling is still informative. Is the time of input more critical or the rate of input more critical? I would say it is the time. Because we do not know HOW did the water come to the surface, even Gen 7 gives key descriptions. If the time is known, then we will be able to model the details, such as how much water stored in the air, etc.

How do we know another global flood is not possible again? Gen 9 says: the rainbow is the sign. As long as the rainbow exists, there will be no more global flood. What a great scientific statement.

The rainbow is all the evidences you need. If you do not understand it, that does not mean the evidence is not there.

Your claim seems to be that what the bible says is true because it says so in the bible. Do you know what circular reasoning is?
 
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juvenissun

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Your claim seems to be that what the bible says is true because it says so in the bible. Do you know what circular reasoning is?

It is certainly not. Information goes out from what the Bible says. It is scrutinized outside the Bible, in this case, by geology. There is no circular reasoning anywhere.
 
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The Nihilist

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It is certainly not. Information goes out from what the Bible says. It is scrutinized outside the Bible, in this case, by geology. There is no circular reasoning anywhere.

Geology does nothing to confirm the bible regarding a flood. There is no evidence that the world was ever completely flooded, and it certainly wasn't completely flooded while humans have existed.
 
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juvenissun

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Geology does nothing to confirm the bible regarding a flood. There is no evidence that the world was ever completely flooded, and it certainly wasn't completely flooded while humans have existed.

If you are humble enough to ask question, I will respond.
Comment such as the above, only ends the discussion.
 
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The Nihilist

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If you are humble enough to ask question, I will respond.
Comment such as the above, only ends the discussion.
When you make me feel so superior to you, it's difficult to be humble, so you'll just have to forgive me. Can you present evidence or cite a source that shows that the world was ever entirely flooded? If you intend to argue that the biblical flood happened, can you show that such a flood happened within the last, let's be generous, 250,000 years?
 
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How did we not see rainbows before the deluge? What did god do? Did he change the atmosphere to where our eyes could see it? Or did he tweek our eyes to where we could see the broke down spectrum by particles of water/prisms?

If I believed this I'd be inclined towards the latter view.

It seems as though water not refracting light would be on par with a triangle whose corners don't amount to 180 degrees.

But maybe I'm wrong who knows?
 
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neutralino7

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If I believed this I'd be inclined towards the latter view.

It seems as though water not refracting light would be on par with a triangle whose corners don't amount to 180 degrees.

But maybe I'm wrong who knows?

You need a proper index of refraction, proper angle of refraction, and proper wavelength of light (~589 nm, yellow light) in order for light to refract into the spectrum of colors. Depending on these conditions, material will refract none, some, or all wavelengths of light. Generally, the higher the index of refraction, the more potential there is for the material.to display some or all of the light rays spectral colors. As a comparison, a vacuum has an index of refraction of 1. Air has an index of refraction of 1.000277 at standard temperature and pressure (273 K, 101.3 kPa.) Water has an index of refraction of 1.3330 at 293 K. A diamond has an index of refraction of 2.419, which is why it is fancied for its "sparkled" features in light.

The mist of the bible pre flood would have an index of refraction comparable to that of water, but the mist would absorb some solar light from space before they penetrated the mist. Therefore, the wavelength of light needed to cause rainbows would not be sufficient. Moreover, the water droplettes in the mist would produce multiple incident angles, absorbing energy in the process. By the time the light is visible on the earth side of the mist, there wouldnt be sufficient refraction to cause a rainbow. According to the bible, the mist was above the sky and below the boundary of space.

Therefore, when this mist was rained down, not only did the drop in density allow for less incidence angles, it also allowed proper wavelength of light, at correct angles, to shine on droplettes. This is why the rainbow would have been so novel to Noah. Geologically, it wasn't possible to have a sky rainbow.
 
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juvenissun

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When you make me feel so superior to you, it's difficult to be humble, so you'll just have to forgive me. Can you present evidence or cite a source that shows that the world was ever entirely flooded? If you intend to argue that the biblical flood happened, can you show that such a flood happened within the last, let's be generous, 250,000 years?

No. According to the current used geological time scale, it has to be way back in time. And when we push the time back that far back, any so-called evidence would not be made in real time. However, it is not new in geology. Most evidences in geology belong to that category.

Of course, that will present another major problem. And of course, there will be another major answer or explanation to that major problem.
 
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The Nihilist

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No. According to the current used geological time scale, it has to be way back in time. And when we push the time back that far back, any so-called evidence would not be made in real time. However, it is not new in geology. Most evidences in geology belong to that category.

Of course, that will present another major problem. And of course, there will be another major answer or explanation to that major problem.
I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you agreeing that there's no evidence that the entire world was ever flooded?
 
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juvenissun

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I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you agreeing that there's no evidence that the entire world was ever flooded?

Of course there are evidences. Otherwise we would not think about it. But the evidences need interpretations. However, this is not unusual. All evidences need some interpretations. Only that the evidences of the Global Flood need a deeper background of knowledge to interpret. So, it will not be obvious to most people.

The best way to show it is like this: You try to answer the question: what kind of evidence you like to see? If you are not knowledgeable enough, then whatever evidence you can think of, it is most likely not there. On the other hand, for people who knows, you will not appreciate (even accept) the evidence they can bring up even you do not have any idea on how to reject the evidence, because you simply do not know.
 
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The Nihilist

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Of course there are evidences. Otherwise we would not think about it. But the evidences need interpretations. However, this is not unusual. All evidences need some interpretations. Only that the evidences of the Global Flood need a deeper background of knowledge to interpret. So, it will not be obvious to most people.

The best way to show it is like this: You try to answer the question: what kind of evidence you like to see? If you are not knowledgeable enough, then whatever evidence you can think of, it is most likely not there. On the other hand, for people who knows, you will not appreciate (even accept) the evidence they can bring up even you do not have any idea on how to reject the evidence, because you simply do not know.

Well, as neither of us is an expert in the field of geology, why don't we defer to the experts? There's certainly no need for us to go look at whatever rocks we can find and try to reinvent the wheel. Therefore, I'd be willing to accept an article from a peer-reviewed or otherwise reputable source that shows that the earth was once flooded or that it was flooded while humanity has existed. Shoot, I'd even be willing to accept a wikipedia page as long as it cites its sources. But please either come back with a link or just admit that there's no evidence for what you would like to believe, and that you take it on faith*.

*I think taking something on faith is an entirely reasonable thing for a christian to do.
 
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juvenissun

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Well, as neither of us is an expert in the field of geology, why don't we defer to the experts? There's certainly no need for us to go look at whatever rocks we can find and try to reinvent the wheel. Therefore, I'd be willing to accept an article from a peer-reviewed or otherwise reputable source that shows that the earth was once flooded or that it was flooded while humanity has existed. Shoot, I'd even be willing to accept a wikipedia page as long as it cites its sources. But please either come back with a link or just admit that there's no evidence for what you would like to believe, and that you take it on faith*.

*I think taking something on faith is an entirely reasonable thing for a christian to do.

That is the hard part and the argument of that would be more theoretical and theological.

Otherwise, the evidences of a Global Flood are, in fact, everywhere. Like I said, none of them are easy to understand. So, I will give one I have given in may other threads: The abundant ocean water on the earth IS a pretty solid evidence.

I am sorry that you do not understand why. The explanation is really long. There are thousands of peer-reviewed articles about it. But there is not a single one which explained it from the beginning of the earth to the present. With that said, if you want to taste the flavor of it, you may search: "origin of the ocean water". You will not find one theory, but find 10 theories. That says: we do not know. But I will modify it as: We will not know, if we do not consider the hint given by the Bible.

To fit the OP better, I think the rainbow is, in fact, another solid evidence of the Global Flood. May be you like to think more about it.
 
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The Nihilist

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That is the hard part and the argument of that would be more theoretical and theological.

Otherwise, the evidences of a Global Flood are, in fact, everywhere. Like I said, none of them are easy to understand. So, I will give one I have given in may other threads: The abundant ocean water on the earth IS a pretty solid evidence.

I am sorry that you do not understand why. The explanation is really long. There are thousands of peer-reviewed articles about it. But there is not a single one which explained it from the beginning of the earth to the present. With that said, if you want to taste the flavor of it, you may search: "origin of the ocean water". You will not find one theory, but find 10 theories. That says: we do not know. But I will modify it as: We will not know, if we do not consider the hint given by the Bible.

To fit the OP better, I think the rainbow is, in fact, another solid evidence of the Global Flood. May be you like to think more about it.

So you basically have not one damn shred of evidence in favor of anything you've said. Thank you for saying so, because I'm tired of this dumb thread.
 
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sandwiches

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To fit the OP better, I think the rainbow is, in fact, another solid evidence of the Global Flood. May be you like to think more about it.

Nah. Nothing to think about. That ancient people used preexisting, observed physical phenomena in their myths isn't evidence that their myths are true. Chew on that for a bit, bro.
 
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juvenissun

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So you basically have not one damn shred of evidence in favor of anything you've said. Thank you for saying so, because I'm tired of this dumb thread.

Take a rest. I told you it is not easy.
 
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