I want to know more about Messianic Judaism

[mishkan]

The second-rate memberships for Gentiles were no longer apparent. Those I visited included MJAA and the UMJC. The UMJC page for individual membership had been taken down and has not been replaced yet. So perhaps the discussions that we have been having here at CF/Messianic Judaism are making a difference in the Messianic community as a whole.

Having been watching the state of the discussion through some other avenues, like personal blogs of individual leaders, I'm afraid I have a more negative interpretation of the missing references--"The topic has been identified as incendiary, so we're no longer going to put it out there for public discussion." I don't think your obervation reflects agreement, but a battening down of the hatches to ride out the storm of debate.

But I fear a longstanding prejudice such as this one will take some time before any real progress is made. So again I think it is more about who is doing the observing rather than how a thing is observed.

I'm not sure I follow your thinking here. What do you mean?

 

[Chaplain David]

I must take a little time to study the last few posts and thank you for sharing with me. I'm sure I'll have questions. This is the only thread where I can be a pain without going off topic lol. Shalom!

 

[mishkan]

I must take a little time to study the last few posts and thank you for sharing with me. I'm sure I'll have questions. This is the only thread where I can be a pain without going off topic lol. Shalom!

Did you say, "be a pain"??? Naaaah! Not possible.

 

[Yahudim]

Hi David,

Having been watching the state of the discussion through some other avenues, like personal blogs of individual leaders, I'm afraid I have a more negative interpretation of the missing references--"The topic has been identified as incendiary, so we're no longer going to put it out there for public discussion." I don't think your obervation reflects agreement, but a battening down of the hatches to ride out the storm of debate.

That is a sobering thought.

I'm not sure I follow your thinking here. What do you mean?

The question I was originally replying to was about the observation of Sabbath. Chava K had said, 'It's no issue, except Gentiles should not keep shabbat as Jews do. Not a problem as most Gentiles don't.'

In response, Sacredote asked, 'I'm trying to understand ChavaK's comments about (hope I'm quoting them right) that MJ's shouldn't keep Shabbat the way Jews do. Why not? Is it somehow sacreligious or because of doctrine or Scripture?'

This is what the bulk of my last two posts have been about. Sorry if I wasn't clear. When I said, 'But I fear a longstanding prejudice such as this one will take some time before any real progress is made.', I was speaking of the anti-Gentile bias as being the root cause of the problem. And the next statement, 'So again I think it is more about who is doing the observing rather than how a thing is observed.', was in reference to who (non-Jews) was doing the observing (whether Sabbath or anything else) as opposed to the actual practice or method of observation.

 

[GuardianShua]

This is probably perfectly clear to everyone except me. But would an Orthodox Jew be or could he/she be also MJ?

It is very rare, but some Orthodox Jews secretly believe Yahshua was the Messiah. A Orthodox Jew can not be both MJ and OJ at the same time, but they can believe Yahshua was the Messiah.

 

[mishkan]

It is very rare, but some Orthodox Jews secretly believe Yahshua was the Messiah. A Orthodox Jew can not be both MJ and OJ at the same time, but they can believe Yahshua was the Messiah.

???

I'm not following your statement. It seems inconsistent.

Absolutely, a Jewish person from any point on the religious spectrum can be Messianic. The problem the Orthodox would have is that, were his belief in Yeshua known, he would be excluded from the Orthodox community. Since it is impossible to live as an Orthodox without the support of a community, he would be put in a bit of a bind. That's why Orthodox believers tend to be secretive.

I actually know a couple of Orthodox believers here in Baltimore. They sneak out to attend Messianic shuls for special events, but conceal from their neighbors the fact that they are believers.

 

[MessianicMommy]

I must take a little time to study the last few posts and thank you for sharing with me. I'm sure I'll have questions. This is the only thread where I can be a pain without going off topic lol. Shalom!

You? A pain? Can anyone say anything further from the truth?!

I believe you've gotten some great answers, and I've enjoyed reading the dialogue.

 

[GuardianShua]

???

I'm not following your statement. It seems inconsistent.

Absolutely, a Jewish person from any point on the religious spectrum can be Messianic. The problem the Orthodox would have is that, were his belief in Yeshua known, he would be excluded from the Orthodox community. Since it is impossible to live as an Orthodox without the support of a community, he would be put in a bit of a bind. That's why Orthodox believers tend to be secretive.

I actually know a couple of Orthodox believers here in Baltimore. They sneak out to attend Messianic shuls for special events, but conceal from their neighbors the fact that they are believers.

That is why I used the words "very rare" and "secretly." The belief that Yahshua was the Messiah does not violate any scriptural teaching, it is just not supported by the Orthodox community.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Hi Sacerdote,

Just a quick clarification. In my post above I said:I took some time last night and visited some of these organization. The second-rate memberships for Gentiles were no longer apparent. Those I visited included MJAA and the UMJC. The UMJC page for individual membership had been taken down and has not been replaced yet. So perhaps the discussions that we have been having here at CF/Messianic Judaism are making a difference in the Messianic community as a whole. But I fear a longstanding prejudice such as this one will take some time before any real progress is made. So again I think it is more about who is doing the observing rather than how a thing is observed.

I can tell you without almost without a doubt that memberships in MJAA are a non issue with my non Jewish congregants. I just recently talked to a close non Jewish congregant and I asked him honestly if the memberships bothered or did he find the membership as creating separation in the body. It wasn't an issue for him. Doesn't make it right or wrong.

 

[Qnts2]

Hi David,

The question I was originally replying to was about the observation of Sabbath. Chava K had said, 'It's no issue, except Gentiles should not keep shabbat as Jews do. Not a problem as most Gentiles don't.'

In response, Sacredote asked, 'I'm trying to understand ChavaK's comments about (hope I'm quoting them right) that MJ's shouldn't keep Shabbat the way Jews do. Why not? Is it somehow sacreligious or because of doctrine or Scripture?'

This is what the bulk of my last two posts have been about. Sorry if I wasn't clear. When I said, 'But I fear a longstanding prejudice such as this one will take some time before any real progress is made.', I was speaking of the anti-Gentile bias as being the root cause of the problem. And the next statement, 'So again I think it is more about who is doing the observing rather than how a thing is observed.', was in reference to who (non-Jews) was doing the observing (whether Sabbath or anything else) as opposed to the actual practice or method of observation.

Do not assume it is a prejudice. It is the understanding of the Torah which brings Judaism to the conclusion that Gentiles should not keep the Sabbath like the Jewish people do.

 

[yedida]

Do not assume it is a prejudice. It is the understanding of the Torah which brings Judaism to the conclusion that Gentiles should not keep the Sabbath like the Jewish people do.

Lev. 23 the Lord said that these are "My Feasts," they do not belong to any people group - they belong to Hashem. And whoever belongs to Hashem has a right and an obligation to keep His feast days & His memorials. No ifs, ands, or buts about it!

 

[etZion]

Lev. 23 the Lord said that these are "My Feasts," they do not belong to any people group - they belong to Hashem. And whoever belongs to Hashem has a right and an obligation to keep His feast days & His memorials. No ifs, ands, or buts about it!

Exodus 20:8-11
“Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

The sojourner was commanded to also keep the Sabbath and to keep it Holy... no different than the native born... but this requires actually knowing what the Torah says to understand these things... It is obvious some here do not know the Torah very well.

 

[GuardianShua]

Exodus 20:8-11
“Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

The sojourner was commanded to also keep the Sabbath and to keep it Holy... no different than the native born... but this requires actually knowing what the Torah says to understand these things... It is obvious some here do not know the Torah very well.

We are all sabbath keepers here. Are you speaking of certain Christians that visit here?

 

[etZion]

We are all sabbath keepers here. Are you speaking of certain Christians that visit here?

No, just to anyone who does not know that the Sabbath was also instructed of the Gentile, and in the same regard as the native born, not different.

Isaiah 56 is also a place where one can read that the gentile is also to keep the Sabbath Holy.

 

[Henaynei]

Do not assume it is a prejudice. It is the understanding of the Torah which brings Judaism to the conclusion that Gentiles should not keep the Sabbath like the Jewish people do.

I agree with this.

 

[GuardianShua]

No, just to anyone who does not know that the Sabbath was also instructed of the Gentile, and in the same regard as the native born, not different.

Isaiah 56 is also a place where one can read that the gentile is also to keep the Sabbath Holy.

Since the Sabbath was given to mankind in the days of Adam, I would think everyone would know that here.
Genesis 2:3
Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

 

[Yahudim]

Since the Sabbath was given to mankind in the days of Adam, I would think everyone would know that here.
Genesis 2:3
Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

You would think...

 

[ChavaK]

Exodus 20:8-11
“Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

The sojourner was commanded to also keep the Sabbath and to keep it Holy... no different than the native born... but this requires actually knowing what the Torah says to understand these things... It is obvious some here do not know the Torah very well.

Just to play devils advocate, heh heh....

10. but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord, your God; you shall perform no labor, neither you, your son, your daughter, your manservant, your maidservant, your beast, nor your stranger who is within your gates.

This clearly implies that if a stranger was residing with Jews in their cities, in regards to work and rest they were to observe shabbos. I don't see
where it applies elsewhere.. ie, living in areas away from Jews.
Nor that Gentiles should be taking on the observances of Jews other than rest and not working.
And.....would it apply to those who hold beliefs different than those of Jews? Or would only those who aligned their beliefs with Jews be allowed to live amongst them, and to observe shabbos?

 

[Yahudim]

Just to play devils advocate, heh heh....

This clearly implies that if a stranger was residing with Jews in their cities, in regards to work and rest they were to observe shabbos. I don't see
where it applies elsewhere.. ie, living in areas away from Jews.
Nor that Gentiles should be taking on the observances of Jews other than rest and not working.
And.....would it apply to those who hold beliefs different than those of Jews? Or would only those who aligned their beliefs with Jews be allowed to live amongst them, and to observe shabbos?

So you don't know if 'those who aligned their beliefs with Jews [would] be allowed to live amongst them, and to observe shabbos?

 

[Yahudim]

Do not assume it is a prejudice. It is the understanding of the Torah which brings Judaism to the conclusion that Gentiles should not keep the Sabbath like the Jewish people do.

So how should the Gentiles keep it differently? Please be specific.