Ronald said in post #4:
To imagine that billions of unsaved people are suffering, including some of my family would remove any joy I have.
It will be possible for the saved to still have joy, because in the presence of God is fullness of joy (Psalms 16:11); the saved's love for God outweighs everything else (Philippians 3:8, Luke 14:26). Saved people have to love God even more than they love other people (Matthew 10:37). They must never make sinful, infinitesimal humans more important than the infinite and perfectly holy God (Isaiah 40:17).
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Ronald said in post #4:
"Aeonios" when applied to temporal things, physical creation, things created that will pass away, it means an age, a lifetime, generations, the world, etc. Therefore everlasting does not mean infinitely forward in time . . .
In Matthew 25:46, the same Greek word (aionios: G0166) is used to refer to the "everlasting" punishment of the unsaved as is used to refer to the "eternal" life of the saved. So to claim that the everlasting punishment of the unsaved isn't necessarily everlasting, but could be only temporary, one would have to say that the eternal life of the saved isn't necessarily eternal, but could be only temporary.
Also, it's by the fear of God that people depart from evil (Proverbs 16:6, Proverbs 3:7, Proverbs 14:27). So claiming that the everlasting punishment of the unsaved (Matthew 25:46, Mark 9:46, Revelation 14:10-11, Revelation 20:10,15) isn't necessarily everlasting, but could be only temporary, is very dangerous, because it could lead some believers to lose their fear of God and his ability to ultimately cast them into the eternal hell (Luke 12:5, Matthew 10:28, Mark 9:43-44) if they disobey God to the point where they ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46).
They could decide that they can handle an only-temporary punishment, and are willing to handle it, if it means that they can go ahead and live it up and enjoy all the pleasures of sin without repentance for the rest of their lives. So claiming that the everlasting punishment of the unsaved isn't necessarily everlasting could cause some believers to actually suffer everlasting punishment, whereas they would have repented from their sins and not ultimately lost their salvation had they continued to believe that the loss of their salvation would mean their everlasting punishment.
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What's eternally punishing (Matthew 25:46) about the hell of Gehenna (Luke 12:5) is fire eternally burning the body, and worms eternally eating the body (Mark 9:46, Isaiah 66:24).
The bodies of the unsaved in Gehenna needn't be natural bodies like people have now, which don't regenerate themselves when they're burned or eaten. For before the unsaved are cast into Gehenna (also called the lake of fire) they will all be resurrected (Revelation 20:12-15, John 5:29b), and their new, resurrection bodies could be different than the natural bodies people have now, in that their resurrection bodies could eternally regenerate themselves whenever part of them is burned or eaten in Gehenna. But then the regenerated part could subsequently be burned or eaten again, only to regenerate again, only to be burned or eaten again, and so on, forever: an eternal punishment (Revelation 14:10-11).
In Gehenna the fire won't ever go out (Mark 9:46), it will never run out of fuel, but will continue to punish the unsaved forever (Matthew 25:41,46). The fact that the fire will already be burning before the resurrection bodies of the unsaved are cast into it (Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15) means that the bodies of the unsaved aren't the fuel for the fire. The fire will have its own source of fuel by which it will burn and punish the unsaved forever.
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Ronald said in post #4:
Hades is thrown into the Lake of Fire and destroyed along with everyone.
Note that Revelation 20:14-15 doesn't say or require that death, hell, or unsaved people will be annihilated.
Regarding unsaved people, see the prior section of this post. Also, it should be pointed out that even Matthew 10:28's "destroy" doesn't have to mean annihilate, for the original Greek word (apollumi, G0622) can be used to refer to something simply being ruined (Mark 2:22), yet still existing in its ruined state.
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Regarding death, Revelation 20:14a (like 1 Corinthians 15:26) refers to only the first death being put away. The lake of fire is the second death (Revelation 20:14b, Revelation 21:8b, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 20:6), which is eternal suffering (Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45-46).
Also, it should be pointed out that even 1 Corinthians 15:26's "destroyed" doesn't have to mean annihilated, for the original Greek word (katargeo, G2673) can be translated simply as "put away" (1 Corinthians 13:11). Someone can put away childish things, for example, by simply placing them into a box in the basement.
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Regarding hell, in the original Greek, Revelation 20:14a refers to only the temporary hell of "Hades" (Luke 16:23) being put away, not the eternal hell of "Gehenna"/the lake of fire (Luke 12:5, Mark 9:45-46, Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 14:10-11).
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Also, it should be pointed out that the unsaved souls who will enter into the second "death" (Revelation 21:8) will still remain conscious, just as they did when they entered into the first death. For, presently, only the physical bodies of the dead in their graves are euphemistically "asleep" (1 Thessalonians 4:13, 1 Corinthians 15:18,51). The souls of the dead remain conscious, either in heaven with Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46) or in fiery punishment in Hades (Luke 16:22-24). At Jesus' second coming, he will bring with him from heaven all the souls of all believers who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14), and they will descend to the earth where the graves of their bodies are and their bodies will be resurrected into immortality at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6).
Sometime after the subsequent millennium and Gog/Magog event (Revelation 20:7-10), all the souls in Hades will be resurrected into bodies, judged, and cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:12-15), which is the second death (Revelation 21:8). So the people in the lake of fire won't be immortal; they will be in the state of the second death. And yet the people in the lake of fire, though dead, will still be conscious and will suffer punishment along with the devil and his fallen angels forever (Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45-46, Isaiah 66:24).
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Ronald said in post #4:
And all former things will pass away.
Revelation 21:4 means that all former unpleasant things will have passed away for saved people, not that former pleasant things, like the righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost that saved people have now (Romans 14:17), will have passed away.
Also, Revelation 21:4 doesn't mean that former unpleasant things (like suffering) will have passed away for unsaved people, for that verse is followed by Revelation 21:8 (and Revelation 22:15), and the suffering of the unsaved in the lake of fire won't pass away (Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45-46).
Similarly, Revelation 21:5's all things being made new applies only to saved people (2 Corinthians 5:17).
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Ronald said in post #4:
Think about what a whoremonger is. He can only participate in that lifestyle when he is alive on earth. Likewise, a murderer can no longer murder after death nor would an idol worshiper do such things in Hades.
Revelation 21:8 means that those who are murderers or whoremongers (or other types of sinners) now, in this life, and who die without ever repenting from their sins, will be cast into the lake of fire. They will remain murderers or whoremongers in the lake of fire not in the sense that they will continue to commit murder or whoredom there, but in the sense that we refer to murderers being on death row today: it's simply a reference to their past murders, not to them continuing to commit murders while on death row.
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Ronald said in post #4:
Would you expect that God would sustain screaming, suffering souls in a torture chamber outside of the Pearly Gates infinititely?
As was pointed out in post #2, just as the ancient Tophet/Gehenna was just outside the wall of ancient Jerusalem, so the eternal Gehenna, the lake of fire, will be just outside the wall of New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8) on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8). Saved people will go forth from New Jerusalem to witness the eternal punishment of the unsaved in the lake of fire/Gehenna (Isaiah 66:24, Mark 9:46, Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11).
For the reason why God will have it this way, see the subsequent "vessels" of wrath part of post #2.
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Ronald said in post #4:
Heaven is a gift not something that we earn.
Revelation 22:14 shows that it's by our obeying God that we will have the right to enter New Jerusalem.
Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they patiently continue unto the end in obedience and good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b, 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Revelation 22:14, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14, 1 John 2:17b) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).
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Ronald said in post #4:
God is doing the work in us so to me there are no merit badges.
It's impossible for us to perform or continue to perform all the right actions as believers apart from God making it possible for us to do that (Philippians 2:12-13, John 15:4-5). So even if we do continue to act as we ought to, we must stay so humble that we never give ourselves any credit or glory (Luke 17:10, Galatians 6:14, 1 Corinthians 1:31). But at the judgment of the church, at the second coming of Jesus, he will give obedient believers some credit (Matthew 25:21). Also, God does glorify saved people (e.g. Romans 8:30).
Also, while God makes it possible for saved people to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13, John 15:4-5), God doesn't take away their free will, turning them into robots, or into macabre flesh puppets, mere marionettes which he forces to dance across the stage as he pulls on their strings. Thank God that, instead, he leaves all saved people as his real children with free will. And because he leaves them with free will, they themselves have to choose each and every day for the rest of their lives to deny themselves, to take up their crosses themselves, and to continue to follow Jesus unto the end (Luke 9:23, Matthew 24:13). But there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (e.g. Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46, Luke 8:13).
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Ronald said in post #4:
When we die, we are all clean spirits.
Not if we die in unrepentant sin. For Hebrews 10:26-29 shows that saved people, people who have actually been sanctified by Jesus Christ's sacrificial blood (Hebrews 10:29), which sanctification requires faith (Acts 26:18b, cf. Romans 3:25-26), can, after they get saved, wrongly employ their free will to commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26). By doing this, these saved people are unwittingly trampling on Jesus and his sacrificial blood and doing despite unto the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29), turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4), so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they'd never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20-22).
Even though Jesus' sacrificial blood is sufficient to forgive all sins (1 John 2:2), it actually forgives only the sins of believers that are past (Romans 3:25-26), as in sins which have been repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9,7). Jesus' sacrificial blood doesn't remit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29). So a saved person can in the end lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his free will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).
The immediate context of Hebrews 10:26-29 is Hebrews 10:25, which is addressing "we" saved people. Hebrews 10:25-29 is the same idea as Hebrews 3:13: Saved people need to gather together and exhort each other so that no saved person will fall into any unrepentant sin. For any unrepentant sin will ultimately result in the loss of salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29), just as other scriptures show (1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46, Galatians 5:19-21, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13, 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).
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To repent from a sin means to change one's mind regarding that sin, in the sense of having no plans ever to commit that sin again, knowing that God has made it possible for believers not to sin (John 8:34-36, Romans 8:2-14, Romans 6, 2 Corinthians 7:1), even when they're tempted to do so (1 Corinthians 10:13, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Romans 8:13, Galatians 5:16).
But if, sometime after repenting from a sin, believers nonetheless wrongly employ their free will to commit that sin again, this doesn't mean that they hadn't previously repented from that sin or that they as continued believers in the gospel aren't saved. What they need to do is repent from that sin again and confess it to God, and they will be completely forgiven (1 John 1:9).
