Why would an atheist come to Christ, if not to avoid hell?

[razeontherock]

If an atheist has no reason to believe sin exists, why would he hate it?

I think this question is not only fair - but very valid! I also think the term "sin" is not something they are likely to readily acknowledge.

Very often exaggerating a point or taking an extreme example helps to clarify things. Let's take an alcoholic. Not just somebody who like to party too much, but someone who is aging and has been seeing the error of his ways for some time. Someone who has wound up sleeping around, and maybe even his only remorse at first was waking up next to someone he found unattractive. But this person has come to realize this isn't the best habit for whatever reasons he has, yet has continued. And his drinking has increased, become more problematic, and maybe even cost him a job or two.

Explaining to him that this is "sin" may not be the wisest first step. Yet he already sees it as a problem! Helping him to focus on that, even cultivating a distaste and hatred for it, would be practical.

In this environment, Christ may be readily embraced, as Savior. Lots of other examples can be used ...

 

[JGG]

The love of Christ. The bride goes to the bridegroom out of love, never out of fear of being alone.

But can an atheist love Christ?

An atheist can't love Christ while still remaining an atheist. Since God is not fooled or mocked, I don't see any way around that.

So then, what's the answer? If an atheist cannot love Christ while being an atheist, and one is converted from atheism to Christianity through the love of Christ, which happens first? It seems kinda chicken and the egg.

 

[razeontherock]

A most potent observation, JGG! Salvation is no doubt the greatest miracle. What I object to is what I hope lies at the core of your objection: that Salvation is not to be guarded, but freely given. Like so:

"being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: (Pp 2:7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant"

 

[Theofane]

So then, what's the answer? If an atheist cannot love Christ while being an atheist, and one is converted from atheism to Christianity through the love of Christ, which happens first? It seems kinda chicken and the egg.

Accepting Christ as Lord and Saviour means the death of atheism.

 

[Faulty]

I think this misses the point of the question on two counts:

1) It doesn't change the legitimacy of the question. You essentially say, if one fears hell, while it's not insurance against it, conversion is still a better bet than to remain an atheist. The question remains. If it's not 100% it's still hedging your bets.

I'm saying there is nothing less than 100%. Any hedging is 0%.

Jesus said whoever puts his hand to the plow and looks back is not worthy to be His disciple.

2) While we may sit and say all Christians do not escape hell, it's a pretty good bet that the individual believes that they themselves are escaping hell. How many Christians do not declare themselves "saved?" How many even question whether they are among the elect? It's always "those Christians" who are preaching false doctrine, or not acting Christian, or destroying the church from within. I don't think I've ever come across one who would consider that they might still be hellbound once they've "accepted Christ." So on the grand scale you may be right about not having "insurance," but I'm pretty sure the individual will tell you that they're 100% covered anyway. Isn't that what faith is all about?


Which brings me back to the question: If not to avoid hell, what reason would an atheist have for belief?

All true chistians do escape the judgment of hell.

The sermon on the mount was given to His followers, and was addressed to professing believers. It's too these professing believers where Jesus warns that many are actually on a wide path that leads to destruction, and only a few are on the narrow path, and many will profess on that day, calling Him Lord and declaring their works, and they will be rejected because their faith was not genuine.

All through the New Testament, professing believers are commanded to test themselves in light of the scriptures to see if they really are in the faith. Peter, Paul, and John all give clear warnings and signs of the true believer, who they are and what they do.

Salvation is not, "just say this prayer and you are in", not at all.

 

[JGG]

Accepting Christ as Lord and Saviour means the death of atheism.

Okay, and how would you get an atheist to accept Christ?

 

[JGG]

I'm saying there is nothing less than 100%. Any hedging is 0%.

Jesus said whoever puts his hand to the plow and looks back is not worthy to be His disciple.





All true chistians do escape the judgment of hell.

The sermon on the mount was given to His followers, and was addressed to professing believers. It's too these professing believers where Jesus warns that many are actually on a wide path that leads to destruction, and only a few are on the narrow path, and many will profess on that day, calling Him Lord and declaring their works, and they will be rejected because their faith was not genuine.

All through the New Testament, professing believers are commanded to test themselves in light of the scriptures to see if they really are in the faith. Peter, Paul, and John all give clear warnings and signs of the true believer, who they are and what they do.

Salvation is not, "just say this prayer and you are in", not at all.

Simple question: Are you a True Christian? Are you 100%?

 

[razeontherock]

Okay, and how would you get an atheist to accept Christ?

We wouldn't. That is an entirely personal thing.

 

[oi_antz]

So then, what's the answer? If an atheist cannot love Christ while being an atheist, and one is converted from atheism to Christianity through the love of Christ, which happens first? It seems kinda chicken and the egg.

Accepting Christ as Lord and Saviour means the death of atheism.

Okay, and how would you get an atheist to accept Christ?

I am convinced that nothing except God Himself can do this. At some stage the atheist has decided to reject salvation, or whatever he has perceived salvation to be. This has locked him into a state of atheism. What is stopping him from reaching out to God and asking for Him to reveal the truth? Maybe you can think about it and tell me. This is relevant though:

Galatians 1:6-8

New Living Translation (NLT)
There Is Only One Good News
6 I am shocked that you are turning away so soon from God, who called you to himself through the loving mercy of Christ.[a] You are following a different way that pretends to be the Good News 7 but is not the Good News at all. You are being fooled by those who deliberately twist the truth concerning Christ.

8 Let God’s curse fall on anyone, including us or even an angel from heaven, who preaches a different kind of Good News than the one we preached to you.

 

[JGG]

I am convinced that nothing except God Himself can do this. At some stage the atheist has decided to reject salvation, or whatever he has perceived salvation to be. This has locked him into a state of atheism. What is stopping him from reaching out to God and asking for Him to reveal the truth? Maybe you can think about it and tell me. This is relevant though:

Well, I have a concept of what salvation is, but that being said, what is salvation?

 

[razeontherock]

what is salvation?

This is one of the better questions I've seen on CF

It can be answered on a dizzying array of levels, but I think the thing to not overlook is that it means contact with God.

Ideally, this is unbroken. In this state, every element of Salvation is available - and only in this state.

 

[oi_antz]

Well, I have a concept of what salvation is, but that being said, what is salvation?

I hope you read Ray's answer, I couldn't have said it better myself. I think that for us who have made a decision at some stage to reject God, that for us to be reunited to Him is immediate salvation. If I had to condense the whole purpose of Christianity according to the bible, I would say it is:

"for those who are wheat growing among the weeds to be harvested at the end of the age, and to inherit the kingdom set apart for them from the beginning of time. According to Jesus, those of the resurrected who survive the judgment of the great white throne will enjoy endless life where there is no more death, suffering or pain. He will wipe all the tears from our eyes and we will inhabit earth with Jesus as King. (Revelation 21)."

Having the assurance that Jesus has forgiven our trespasses and will vouch for us in front of The Father is what I deem salvation to be. I am always going to tell you that you must obtain this assurance from Jesus personally, not from a church rite. The reason for this is because only God can see the motive of your heart and render judgment accordingly, whereas anyone can be fooled by sweet-talk and flattery.

Regarding atheism and salvation, it's pretty obvious that if you were aware of your own salvation you would identify yourself as being a Christian disciple rather than an atheist (feel free to correct me if you can).

Does that help? It doesn't conflict with your reading does it?

 

[Esefreond]

If an atheist has no reason to believe sin exists, why would he hate it?

Why wouldn't he? There seems to be a lot of thought on this board that, because atheists are without God, they must inherently be bad/uncaring/amoral. I am not atheist but that bothers me.

One does not have to fear damnation to want to be a good person or refrain from sin. An atheist's interpretation of exactly what constitutes sin may differ, yes, but there is no reason for someone not to hate sin just because they are not part of a faith or religion.

Act like an amoral fool for long enough and you will damn yourself well enough by bringing loneliness to you. Selfishness, arrogance, amoral behaviour and so on all steer a person away from happiness in anything but the short term; you don't have to be Christian (or not atheist) to see that.

 

[JGG]

I hope you read Ray's answer, I couldn't have said it better myself.

I didn't. And honestly, I'm really not going to. Sorry.

I think that for us who have made a decision at some stage to reject God, that for us to be reunited to Him is immediate salvation. If I had to condense the whole purpose of Christianity according to the bible, I would say it is:

"for those who are wheat growing among the weeds to be harvested at the end of the age, and to inherit the kingdom set apart for them from the beginning of time. According to Jesus, those of the resurrected who survive the judgment of the great white throne will enjoy endless life where there is no more death, suffering or pain. He will wipe all the tears from our eyes and we will inhabit earth with Jesus as King. (Revelation 21)."

Having the assurance that Jesus has forgiven our trespasses and will vouch for us in front of The Father is what I deem salvation to be. I am always going to tell you that you must obtain this assurance from Jesus personally, not from a church rite. The reason for this is because only God can see the motive of your heart and render judgment accordingly, whereas anyone can be fooled by sweet-talk and flattery.

That sounds vaguely like being saved from hell, doesn't it?

Regarding atheism and salvation, it's pretty obvious that if you were aware of your own salvation you would identify yourself as being a Christian disciple rather than an atheist (feel free to correct me if you can).

Does that help? It doesn't conflict with your reading does it?

In a sense. I agree, I don't see salvation. If I don't believe in a hell to be saved from, salvation doesn't seems so important.

Why wouldn't he? There seems to be a lot of thought on this board that, because atheists are without God, they must inherently be bad/uncaring/amoral. I am not atheist but that bothers me.

Atheists = (various bad things and character flaws) in Christiandom, I agree.

 

[oi_antz]

I didn't. And honestly, I'm really not going to. Sorry.

I don't know why you are sorry to me, if you block your ears you only need to apologize to yourself.

That sounds vaguely like being saved from hell, doesn't it?

Yes it does, but fear is a bad motive. If you come to God that way then you will end up hating Him. If you come in love then you will never leave Him. That is not to say that you won't be scared when you understand the reality of hell. I was scared witless when I knew how much I had rejected Jesus, but He just held His hand out and picked me up with some minor judgments but no grudges.

In a sense. I agree, I don't see salvation. If I don't believe in a hell to be saved from, salvation doesn't seems so important.

No you are looking at the glass half empty again. It even seems to me that you've activated denial as some sort of defense tactic. The fact according to Christianity is that Jesus lives forever and we can live with Him. The alternative is not so desirable, Jesus spoke of a place where there is wailing and gnashing teeth (apparently those who regret how they managed their life), and those who are in outer darkness (devoid of the light). I understand this is because while we have the body we get to experience the physical realm.

(J0hn 1:9) [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Ray posted this verse just today on another thread, you really aren't doing yourself any good by blocking him.

Once the body stops functioning we don't get to experience life in the physical realm, we aren't surrounded by the light of life. The bible teaches that we live once and afterward must face God. If you haven't already squared up with Him that will be extremely shameful. In fact it is shameful to live in God's presence even if you have accepted Christ. Sin is not something to be proud of and those who work iniquity will surely know it.

Atheists = (various bad things and character flaws) in Christiandom, I agree.

Generalizations are not fair, we've had trouble with that before and I thought I had sufficiently explained to you why there are evil Christians. There certainly are a lot of loving Christians, did it not sink in or are you just pouting? Read this: Luke 13:22-30 NLT - The Narrow Door - Jesus went through - Bible Gateway There are a surprising number of Christians who feed on hear-say, that is those who have rote faith, not faith that originates from the Holy Spirit. They are those whose fruit is bad, because the whole tree is bad. But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.

 

[JGG]

I don't know why you are sorry to me, if you block your ears you only need to apologize to yourself.

Strange suggestion on a forum which sets limits on what type of person is allowed to participate, and what viewpoints may be shared.

Yes it does, but fear is a bad motive. If you come to God that way then you will end up hating Him. If you come in love then you will never leave Him. That is not to say that you won't be scared when you understand the reality of hell. I was scared witless when I knew how much I had rejected Jesus, but He just held His hand out and picked me up with some minor judgments but no grudges.

Okay, so why would I come to God in love?

No you are looking at the glass half empty again. It even seems to me that you've activated denial as some sort of defense tactic.

Firstly, I don't see how a lack of belief in hell is a glass-half-empty view. If anything, it's a glass-half-full view. If there's no hell, what should I be saved from.

Secondly, you may call it denial as a defense tactic. This is the standard Christian view: A lack of belief must be caused by some character flaw in the atheist. It can only be because the atheist is "disfunctional" in some way.

I see it as a failure to make me believe it exists. You don't believe in Valhalla, Nirvana, or reincarnation. It's not because you specifically deny it, but because you have no reason to believe in it. Same deal here.

The fact according to Christianity is that Jesus lives forever and we can live with Him. The alternative is not so desirable, Jesus spoke of a place where there is wailing and gnashing teeth (apparently those who regret how they managed their life), and those who are in outer darkness (devoid of the light). I understand this is because while we have the body we get to experience the physical realm.

The question of the thread is whether there is reason for an atheist to believe other than to avoid hell, or some other undesirable state. This seems to agree that ultimately there is no other reason.

Ray posted this verse just today on another thread

Yeah, I'm sure it sounds good to you. I'm also certain it's a riddle veiled with insults and contempt. No thanks.

Generalizations are not fair, we've had trouble with that before and I thought I had sufficiently explained to you why there are evil Christians. There certainly are a lot of loving Christians, did it not sink in or are you just pouting?

Generalizations aren't fair are they? Yet this one seems mostly true, doesn't it? I still see no attitude in Christianity for people such as myself except disdain. I see a lot of two-faced people, who say one thing in these forums, and then something else in others.

Even you have to admit to yourself (you don't have to say one way or another on here, but be honest about it to yourself) when you read the word:

atheist

...after reading that word do you experience negative or positive affect? Are your immediate thoughts positive or negative? Again, you don't have to share here, but be honest with yourself, and maybe you'll understand what I'm talking about. You may say it's not a part of the "faith" but it's absolutely part of the culture. Remember, we're the outsiders in your culture.

Read this: Luke 13:22-30 NLT - The Narrow Door - Jesus went through - Bible Gateway There are a surprising number of Christians who feed on hear-say, that is those who have rote faith, not faith that originates from the Holy Spirit. They are those whose fruit is bad, because the whole tree is bad. But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.

Just because the door is narrow, doesn't necessarily mean that anyone at all walks though it.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

.

 

[Soothfish]

Okay, and how would you get an atheist to accept Christ?

There is no reason to accept Christ in terms of raw cold logic. It is a spiritual relationship. You just have to want it.

Right now as we speak, a helpless child is dying in agony in some dirty basement. In many instances, no one comes to the rescue. A Christian cannot bear the thought of it and cannot have any peace with this world while this sort of thing is being done to a life that is regarded as sacred. If not for the promised resurrection, then evil is victorious. The love is at a deeper level than secularism can imagine. It is more than being nice to people just to get something pleasant in return. It is more than patting oneself on the back for being "nice", "polite", and "tolerant" so that the world will like me. It is a connection with the unlimited value of those that are formed in the image of the divine. Likewise, that love must have an equal measure of hatred for sin or it isn't love at all. Every indignity against human life, no matter how slight, is meant to be regarded as an atrocity. Tolerance is unacceptable! When an atrocity is committed, it is to be grieved. Most of the suffering of Christ was grief for this multitude of atrocities, only a small portion was physical pain from the lash and cross. Also, if he did not grieve from the beginning, then there would be no reason to come to Earth. One has to care first before attempting to save anyone. A Christian is supposed to do what Christ did, protect the weak even if they have to die in the process. They are to do it even if the entire world hates them and even if they are hated by those they just finished sacrificing themselves to protect.

I used to be a happy atheist, then became an angry one, then so on. Someone who is happy being an atheist will not lose a minute of sleep over that child dying in the basement. They either don't really care or don't spend anytime thinking about the world as it is. If they did, they would each be a depressed atheist.

Imagine for a second that your own child is being tortured to death one floor below you. You hear the screams. What would you do? You would rush to the aid of your child, correct? Now imagine that you have a billion family members all over the world and they are as close to you as your own child. Now many millions of them are being tortured to death. Do you sit on the couch and be merry? Sadly, that is what the world does. Even if one cannot physically be present to protect the weak from harm, we are still supposed to grieve when we cannot. That grief turns into longing for one who can undo the damage and bring evil to an end. It is not possible for someone to even want to try to leave atheism without having that longing.

This isn't an argument for or against believing in the existence of God. It's an argument for longing.

 

[oi_antz]

@soothfish: great post.

Strange suggestion on a forum which sets limits on what type of person is allowed to participate, and what viewpoints may be shared.

Well the forum has a purpose and a statement of purpose and a set of rules to facilitate that purpose. It seems that your purpose for using this website is different. What is your purpose for using this website? If you don't mind telling me I'm sure it would help me to respond to you accordingly.

Okay, so why would I come to God in love?

For me it was because I love life in all it's forms, even the mosquito and fly are marvelous creatures despite that I don't tolerate their interaction with me. So I love the one who gave me life and who gave life to all of us, this is why I approached Him asking to be shown the truth. In fact when I made that appeal to Him I specifically asked for the truth so I could solve the problems created by religion. I think I've told you this before, I was motivated after watching that movie "Religulous" and becoming so upset by the religious freaks who are trying to bring on armageddon.

Having said this, I don't know whether you would be motivated in the same way, as I understand some people just don't have as much love for life.

Firstly, I don't see how a lack of belief in hell is a glass-half-empty view. If anything, it's a glass-half-full view. If there's no hell, what should I be saved from.

I was referring to your attitude. You have a bad attitude about Christianity and you've explained why that is. Still though, you seem to be content with holding grudges instead of forgiving, this is why I said you seem to see the glass half empty.

Secondly, you may call it denial as a defense tactic. This is the standard Christian view: A lack of belief must be caused by some character flaw in the atheist. It can only be because the atheist is "disfunctional" in some way.

I see it as a failure to make me believe it exists. You don't believe in Valhalla, Nirvana, or reincarnation. It's not because you specifically deny it, but because you have no reason to believe in it. Same deal here.

Actually I am more open minded than that.

The question of the thread is whether there is reason for an atheist to believe other than to avoid hell, or some other undesirable state. This seems to agree that ultimately there is no other reason.

I agree that knowing the reality of hell will motivate you to obey Jesus, but don't think it is a valid draw card because it's extremely inefficient. You have just the right way of making that obvious.

Yeah, I'm sure it sounds good to you. I'm also certain it's a riddle veiled with insults and contempt. No thanks.

Please yourself.

Generalizations aren't fair are they? Yet this one seems mostly true, doesn't it? I still see no attitude in Christianity for people such as myself except disdain. I see a lot of two-faced people, who say one thing in these forums, and then something else in others.

That's what you look for, that's even the energy that you draw out of them. I state this factually because you even do it to me!

Even you have to admit to yourself (you don't have to say one way or another on here, but be honest about it to yourself) when you read the word:

atheist

...after reading that word do you experience negative or positive affect? Are your immediate thoughts positive or negative?

It's actually positive in my opinion. I see an opportunity to identify their misunderstanding of Christianity and show them the truth in the light of Christ. You may think that is negative, but I think that is only because you have a negative attitude toward Christianity.

I think that you and I have a fundamentally different understanding of what Christianity is. This is evident because I view it as a good thing whereas you don't. I don't believe this is because we are genetically different, I believe it is because of the experiences we have had. Those experiences have turned me into a Christian and you into an atheist. Based on that understanding I cannot rightfully pass judgment upon you saying that you are somehow inferior merely because you believe differently than I do. What do you say to that?

Again, you don't have to share here, but be honest with yourself, and maybe you'll understand what I'm talking about. You may say it's not a part of the "faith" but it's absolutely part of the culture. Remember, we're the outsiders in your culture.

You've done that before and you were wrong. See the mistake you have made is to say that the culture you hate is "my" culture and you even italicized the word "your". I'll jog your memory, you said "I'm inclined to believe in something its just not your god". You were wrong, the God you want to believe in is the same God as I believe in, but you have not yet overcome the adversary. God is a different entity to him who teaches those to preach hate in the name of Jesus.

Just because the door is narrow, doesn't necessarily mean that anyone at all walks though it.

That is very good thinking, to think that nobody is worthy of such a perfect rest. The apostle John wrote this:

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

You are wrong though, because Jesus even said in that very quote that the prophets will be there. He even said there would be others, and He was instructing His disciples that they must keep their eyes on the goal. Salvation certainly is possible according to Jesus.

 

[oi_antz]

Someone who is happy being an atheist will not lose a minute of sleep over that child dying in the basement. They either don't really care or don't spend anytime thinking about the world as it is. If they did, they would each be a depressed atheist.

How did you obtain this opinion?