Do you have enough?

[bricklayer]

Yes, it was. A poster said he perceived himself as wealthy (compared to the majority of humans), which earned him your response as quoted in my post.
I was trying to show how his position was easily reconcilable with the "freedom" to "know contentment and charity", asking you to explain how it wasn´t.
(Of course, I was assuming that your response was meant to address the post you quoted and responded to.)

OK, I see.

Free enterprise produces the most for the most.
No other system produces a wealthier "poor" than does free enterprise.
However, as everyone gets wealthier (rich and poor alike) the gap between those with the most and those with the least increases.
It is this gap that becomes intolerable to some.

Although free enterprise produces the wealthiest poor,
it also produces inequalities that are intolerable to some people.

The "poor" in the west do not consider themselves poor because of what they don't have; they consider themselves poor because of what other people do have.

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

OK, I see.

Free enterprise produces the most for the most.
No other system produces a wealthier "poor" than does free enterprise.
However, as everyone gets wealthier (rich and poor alike) the gap between those with the most and those with the least increases.
It is this gap that becomes intolerable to some.

Although free enterprise produces the wealthiest poor,
it also produces inequalities that are intolerable to some people.

The "poor" in the west do not consider themselves poor because of what they don't have; they consider themselves poor because of what other people do have.

I said specifically the global poverty level. These are people living below the global poverty level. I'm trying to say "I have enough money to buy food and not die from easily treated diseases, so I'm happy". That isn't strictly necessary for contentment. Some of the saints were very content people who suffered horrible deprivation and persecution beyond anything easily imaginable by us today. It is necessary, however, to be content in a physical sense and to avoid death. The saints who lived in those circumstances, outside of those who did so voluntarily and received care for their physical needs, like St. Francis of Assissi, were very often martyrs or suffering severe persecution that could have easily made them into martyrs (there may have been some who lived in absolute poverty naturally, but I don't know of them, so I obviously don't know what happened to them).

 

[bricklayer]

I said specifically the global poverty level. These are people living below the global poverty level. I'm trying to say "I have enough money to buy food and not die from easily treated diseases, so I'm happy". That isn't strictly necessary for contentment. Some of the saints were very content people who suffered horrible deprivation and persecution beyond anything easily imaginable by us today. It is necessary, however, to be content in a physical sense and to avoid death. The saints who lived in those circumstances, outside of those who did so voluntarily and received care for their physical needs, like St. Francis of Assissi, were very often martyrs or suffering severe persecution that could have easily made them into martyrs (there may have been some who lived in absolute poverty naturally, but I don't know of them, so I obviously don't know what happened to them).

I am left to believe that Jesus had enough; anything more than Jesus had is more than enough.
There were those Jesus considered poor; their condition does not resemble that of those considered "poor" in our society.

What do you think Jesus meant when He said that the poor are blessed?
Do you see a connection to that with "lead me not into temptation, but deliver me from evil"?
This much I am rather confident of, those favored among men face temptations that I have been spared.

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

I am left to believe that Jesus had enough; anything more than Jesus had is more than enough.
There were those Jesus considered poor; their condition does not resemble that of those considered "poor" in our society.

No, they don't resemble the condition of those who we consider poor in our society. They do resemble people living below the global poverty level, though. Virtually no one in America lives below the global poverty level. For the record, I'm poor by American standards, but I live so far above the global poverty line that, by world standards, I am one of the richest people on the planet.

People who do live below the global poverty level look like the people who I just linked to. They live in houses that might not always keep the rain out, if they're lucky enough to live in houses. They don't always have enough food. Sometimes, they starve to death. Their children die of measles. When a million of them die (and a million of them die fairly regularly), they're a statistic. They live in parts of the world where genocide, war, and anarchy are parts of daily life, and where they might get a leg blown off stepping on a landmine while walking down to the creek to get water to drink that would make you or me sick if we touched it.

That's what I mean when I'm talking about the global poverty line. They make less than $2 a day. The pack of Captain's Wafers I just bought was around $1.25.

 

[bricklayer]

No, they don't resemble the condition of those who we consider poor in our society. They do resemble people living below the global poverty level, though. Virtually no one in America lives below the global poverty level. For the record, I'm poor by American standards, but I live so far above the global poverty line that, by world standards, I am one of the richest people on the planet.

People who do live below the global poverty level look like the people who I just linked to. They live in houses that might not always keep the rain out, if they're lucky enough to live in houses. They don't always have enough food. Sometimes, they starve to death. Their children die of measles. When a million of them die (and a million of them die fairly regularly), they're a statistic. They live in parts of the world where genocide, war, and anarchy are parts of daily life, and where they might get a leg blown off stepping on a landmine while walking down to the creek to get water to drink that would make you or me sick if we touched it.

That's what I mean when I'm talking about the global poverty line. They make less than $2 a day. The pack of Captain's Wafers I just bought was around $1.25.

Those are the poor.
In the US, we have the envious not the poor. The covetous acquire their authority from an envious constituency, and that makes me jealous.

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

Those are the poor.

Those are the people who I was comparing myself to when I said that I live above the global poverty line.

 

[bricklayer]

Those are the people who I was comparing myself to when I said that I live above the global poverty line.

I follow.

One can describe those below the "global poverty line" as existentially poor.
I believe that what Jesus meant by the poor is the existentially poor not the relatively poor.

 

[cXXo]

I believe >99% of what you believe about Jesus to be false.

 

[quatona]

OK, I see.

Free enterprise produces the most for the most.

This statement requires substantiation. But lets just accept it for the moment.

No other system produces a wealthier "poor" than does free enterprise.

See above.

However, as everyone gets wealthier (rich and poor alike) the gap between those with the most and those with the least increases.
It is this gap that becomes intolerable to some.

Ok, to some. I didn´t see that sentiment reflected in the post you made that comment in response to. But ok.

Although free enterprise produces the wealthiest poor,
it also produces inequalities that are intolerable to some people.

I am starting to become a little uneasy, impatient. I asked you to tell me how your post addressed the post it responded to, and you keep talking about "some people".

The "poor" in the west do not consider themselves poor because of what they don't have; they consider themselves poor because of what other people do have.

I fail to see how you managed to identify that as the problem of the poster you responded to. He clearly said he considered himself content, being in the top few, globally.
Personally, I´m sure I´m far in the lower income rate of my country - yet I am contend and tend to feel I have too much.
So something seems to be inaccurate (or at least too general about your statement).
Some "rich" persons consider themselves poor because they compare themselves to the top dogs of their society.
So what?
Antagonisms like "rich" and "poor" always imply comparisons. And the result depends on the comparandum.

I agree with you in that comparison is never a helpful approach, and I welcome your attempt to replace that thinking by "Do I have what I need? Am I content?". However, I would appreciate it even more if you´d stick with it in a consistent manner.

 

[quatona]

Those are the poor.
In the US, we have the envious not the poor. The covetous acquire their authority from an envious constituency, and that makes me jealous.

Sure, and the rich (by US standards) aren´t envious or covetous. They just have what they deserve and are entitled to.

 

[quatona]

I believe that what Jesus meant by the poor is the existentially poor not the relatively poor.

I believe what Jesus meant by "the poor" is everyone who has less than you (general "you").

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

I believe what Jesus meant by "the poor" is everyone who has less than you (general "you").

I would actually disagree with you here. It seems unlikely that Jesus was using a concept of relative poverty. His original listeners and those who read the gospels would necessarily have understood Him as referring to the underclass, who struggled seriously to make ends meet.

At the same time, I think that we owe a debt to all of the downtrodden, including those here in the U.S. Although being poor here in the U.S. is not the same as being poor in a global context, the poor here do suffer from their condition. They may be able to buy food, but they do still require aid to buy food reliably. It's also important to make certain that they have the ability to move upward on the economic ladder, and to ensure that they have adequate health care to maintain a high quality of life.

 

[quatona]

I would actually disagree with you here. It seems unlikely that Jesus was using a concept of relative poverty.

I am not sure what method to use in order to tell what Jesus meant.

His original listeners and those who read the gospels would necessarily have understood Him as referring to the underclass, who struggled seriously to make ends meet.

...and those would reliably be included in "the relatively poor".

I fail to see, e.g., how Jesus´ advice would be applicable by those who are part of this underclass themselves.

At the same time, I think that we owe a debt to all of the downtrodden, including those here in the U.S. Although being poor here in the U.S. is not the same as being poor in a global context, the poor here do suffer from their condition. They may be able to buy food, but they do still require aid to buy food reliably. It's also important to make certain that they have the ability to move upward on the economic ladder, and to ensure that they have adequate health care to maintain a high quality of life.

Except that I personally am uncomfortable with operating with concepts like "owing a debt" in such considerations I agree with the underlying sentiment.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Do you have enough?
Are you content?
Are you as accomplished as you are ambitious?

I am not in heaven.

 

[bricklayer]

I am not in heaven.

Heaven is incidental. We want to be with Jesus where ever He is.

I sympathize with your point and empathize with your sentiment,
but I'd make a distinction between an ambition and a hope.

 

[drjean]

Do you have enough?
Are you content?
Are you as accomplished as you are ambitious?

Excellent topic!


Yes, Yes, Yes.

Once I accepted Christ (some 45 years ago next month) I purposed to be content...and that has always been my prayer. I haven't always found contentment as I went through my share (some would say more than my share) of negative events in my life that required me to not be content with the situations...and required change.

But now? Yes, I am blessed. Can I handle more goodness? Yes, I pray God can trust me with even more...to benefit the furtherance of His Gospel.