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Proving the H. S. baptism is not connected with salvation

John Zain

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I share this with you ... so you may share it with others.

The Holy Spirit came “inside” of us when we were born again, right?
Jesus promised, “the Spirit of truth … will be in you.” (John 14:17)
Romans 8:11, 1 Corinthians 3:16, Gatatians 4:6, 2 Timothy 1:14, 1 John 3:24 and 4:12-16.

The Holy Spirit came “upon” God’s prophets in the Old Testament:
“and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward” (1 Samuel 16:13)
“Elisha said, ‘Please let a double portion of your spirit be upon me.’ ” (2 Kings 2:9)
“Then the Spirit of God came upon Zechariah” (2 Chronicles 24:20)
“… says the LORD … My Spirit who is upon you (Isaiah) …” (Isaiah 59:21)
“Then the Spirit of the LORD fell upon me, and said to me (Ezekiel) …” (Ezekiel 11:5)

Specifically concerning the Messiah:
“The Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him …” (Isaiah 11:2)
“Arise, shine; for your light has come! And the glory of the LORD is risen upon you.
… the LORD will arise over you, And His glory will be seen upon you.” (Isaiah 60:1-2)

Matthew reminded us of the prophecy in Isaiah 42:1
“Behold! My Servant whom I have chosen, My Beloved in whom My soul is well pleased!
I will put My Spirit upon Him, and He will declare justice to the Gentiles.” (Matthew 12:18)

John the Baptist testified:
“I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him (Jesus).
I did not know Him, but He (Father God) who sent me to baptize with water said to me,
‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes
with the Holy Spirit.’ And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.” (John 1:32-34)

Gabriel promised Mary:
“The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you;
therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.” (Luke 1:35)
Then shortly afterwards, Mary prophesied in Luke 1:46-55.
Jesus is only “called” the Son of God (everyone knows God never had any offspring).

Simeon was special:
“And behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon, and this man was
just and devout, waiting for the Consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him.
And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death
before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.” (Luke 2:25-26)

Jesus showed the way with his double baptism:
“When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water;
and (then) behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God
descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.” (Mt. 3:16, Mark 1:10, Luke 3:22, John 1:32)

Jesus testified in the synagogue:
“The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, because He has anointed Me …” (Luke 4:18)

These 7 passages reveal that the Holy Spirit falls “upon”
those who are receiving the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

“Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city
of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.” Luke 24:49

“… wait for the Promise of the Father …
… you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.
… you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you;
and you shall be witnesses to Me … to the end of the earth.” Acts 1:4-8

“When the Day of Pentecost had fully come … there appeared to them divided tongues,
as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit
and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.” Acts 2:1-4

“… when they (Peter & John) had come down, (they) prayed for them (Samarians)
that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them.
They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.” Acts 8:15-17
“They had only been baptized” previously into the church and/or in water.

“… the Holy Spirit fell upon all those (Gentiles) who heard the word … the gift
of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they (Peter and
his companions) heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.” Acts 10:44-46

“… the Holy Spirit fell upon them (Gentiles), as upon us (Jews) at the beginning.
Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with
water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ … God gave them the same gift
as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ” Acts 11:15-17
This baptism can come when one is born again, or it can come later, but not before.

“… they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came upon them,
and they spoke with tongues and prophesied …” Acts 19:5-6

Note: “the Promise” and “gift” are connected with the Holy Spirit baptism.

1 Luke 24:49 ------ 8 Acts 8:14-19
2 Acts 1:4-8 ------ 9 Acts 9:17-18
3 Acts 2:1-4 ----- 10 Romans 15:19
4 Acts 2:33-39 --- 11 Acts 10:44-48
5 Acts 4:8-16 ---- 12 Acts 11:15-17
6 Acts 4:31 ------ 13 Acts 14:3
7 Acts 5:12-16 ----14 Acts 19:5-6

------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
the Promise --------Y-Y---Y-------------------------
baptized with HS -----Y-------------Y--------Y-----Y
the gift -----------------Y---------------Y--Y------
upon ---------------Y Y Y---------Y-------Y--Y-----Y
laying on of hands ---------------Y-Y-----------Y--Y
filled with HS ---------Y---Y-Y-----Y---------------
received HS ----------------------Y-------Y---------
speaking tongues -------Y-----------------Y--------Y
power --------------Y-Y-----------Y----Y------------
boldness -------------------Y-Y-----------------Y---
miracles -------------------Y---Y---Y--Y--------Y---
.
 

Presbyterian Continuist

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Peter did say that if they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and were baptised, they would then receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This makes it clear to me that the receiving of the Holy Spirit came after conversion, albeit immediately after.
 
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John Zain

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Yeah but still, there are many people that believe in Jesus and receive HIm in their lives and really live for Him,
but don't believe in the baptize with the HS. You think that they are not saved?:confused:
Please have POSITIVE ASSURANCE about this in Romania, and everywhere else ...

SALVATION DOES NOT DEPEND at all on this special "baptism with the Holy Spirit".
.
 
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Biblicist

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John,
“Proving the H. S. baptism is not connected with salvation”
Proving is a very strong word and unless your proof is solid and airtight it still remains only an opinion.

Before we look at your evidence, we need to have a firm understanding of what we mean not only by the Baptism of the Holy Spirit but of course when the Holy Spirit actually comes upon us at or near the point of our confessing our sin and repenting.

Even before a person can become Born Again, this is still an action of the Holy Spirit and frequently termed as Prevenient Grace which means that the Holy Spirit is still in some indeterminate way upon or within us – and we don’t know exactly how but this is really an irrelevancy.

So we know the Spirit is in some way connected to man as it is only through the prodding of the Holy Spirit that man can come to God as we cannot do it in our own strength.

Leaving this aside, you will see from the following verses that many verses which have filled also exist.

(NIV 2011)
Ex 31:3 ... "I have filled him with the Spirit of God in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all kinds of craftsmanship, ...

Ex 35:31 ... "And He has filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding and in knowledge and in all craftsmanship; ...

Lk 1:15 ... "For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's womb. ... GK4398/SC4130

Lk 1:41 ... When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. ... Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. ... GK4398/SC4130 x 2

Lk 1:67 ... And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying: ... GK4398/SC4130

Lk 4:1 .. 1995) .... Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit as he left the Jordan River. The ... GK4441/SC4134

Lk 10:21 ... In that hour the Holy Spirit filled Jesus with joy. ... On that same occasion Jesus was filled by the Holy Spirit with rapturous joy. ... [Greek is literally, “I exult, am full of joy”, so it is better rendered as ‘full of joy in the Holy Spirit’ so this verse can probably be omitted.The NIV 1984 is in my opinion closer to the Greek.]

*Acts 2:4 (Pentecost)... And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance. ... filled ..... ... GK4398/SC4130

Acts 4:8 ... Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, "Rulers and elders of the people, ... GK4398/SC4130

*Acts 4:31 ... And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of ... GK4398/SC4130

Acts 9:17 ... the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit." ... GK4398/SC4130

Acts 13:9 ... But Saul, who was also known as Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, fixed his gaze on him, ... But Saul, also known as Paul, was filled with the Holy Spirit. ... GK4398/SC4130

Acts 13:52 ... And the disciples were filled with joy with the Holy Spirit. ... And the disciples were filled with joy and the Holy Spirit. ... GK4444/SC4137 [Is the text saying “filled with joy and filled with the Holy Spirit”, hard to say.]

Eph 5:18 ... And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit, ... GK4444/SC4137
........................

And most importantly:

Without looking at all the verses you quoted, the meaning of the two distinct English words of upon and on within Mt. 3:16, Mark 1:10, Luke 3:22, John 1:32 does not properly reflect the Greek which is more concerned with the effect or impact of receiving the Spirit; essentially, without the upon or on we cannot have the internal reception of the Spirit which is the point of the two Greek words or at least with the word composition.

Jesus showed the way with his double baptism:
“When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and (then) behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.” (Mt. 3:16, Mark 1:10, Luke 3:22, John 1:32)
Mt 3:16 ... like a dove and alighting upon Him.”

GK2262 ... GK2093/SC1909 ... GK899
SC1909 epí (a preposition) – properly, on (upon), implying what "fits" given the "apt contact," building on the verbal idea. 1909 /epí ("upon") naturally looks to the response (effect) that goes with the envisioned contact, i.e. its apt result ("spin-offs," effects). The precise nuance of 1909 (epí) is only determined by the context, and by the grammatical case following it – i.e. genitive, dative, or accusative case.
Mark 1:10
...and the Spirit descending on him like a dove.
GK2849/SC2597 ... GK1650/SC1519 ... GK899/SC846
SC1519 eis (a preposition) – properly, into (unto) – literally, "motion into which" implying penetration ("unto," "union") to a particular purpose or result.
Luke 3:22
...Holy Spirit descended on him...
GK /SC2597 ... GK2093/SC1909 ... GK899
See SC1909 above.
John 1:32
... and remain on him.
GK3531/SC3306 ... GK2093/SC1909
See SC1909 above.
Even though this is only a brief response I think that it will be worth my time to look at it in further detail.
 
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CGL1023

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"Proving the H. S. baptism is not connected with salvation". This is your lead statement.

I only wonder if this is some issue that is widely misunderstood. I had never known that to be the case. I have to admit my background is charismatic and am generally at ease with most concepts relating to the Holy Spirit. That may make a difference.
 
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John Zain

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"Proving the H. S. baptism is not connected with salvation". This is your lead statement.

I only wonder if this is some issue that is widely misunderstood.
I had never known that to be the case. I have to admit my background is charismatic
and am generally at ease with most concepts relating to the Holy Spirit.
That may make a difference.
Oh, this is much more than widely misunderstood.
Baptists, for example, fight against this with all of their minds and hearts.

P.S. I see at least 4 Christian baptisms.
.
 
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Faulty

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I think this very misunderstanding keeps many believers who would otherwise serve God in miraculous ways , remain stagnant in their growth and probably lead to disillusion


I think those who are taught that serving God must involve the miraculous aspire beyond what scritpure tells them to do, and as such, they are themselves the disillusioned.
"But we urge you, brothers, to do this more and more, and to aspire to live quietly, and to mind your own affairs, and to work with your hands, as we instructed you, so that you may walk properly before outsiders and be dependent on no one."
1 Thessalonians 4:10-12
Trying to find this elusive teaching anywhere on "christian" TV today is rather difficult. They all wan't us to be supermen, but that's more of a Nietzsche "Ubermensch" philosophy than anything biblical.
 
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TasManOfGod

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Millions of people all over the world are working diligently to prove their own false teachings. And...I'm sure, in their own minds, they believe they have succeeded. Not necessarily saying that's what's happening here, but...
Hey come clean - if we have two opposing opinions here surely one of them is false
 
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John Zain

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I think those who are taught that serving God must involve the miraculous
aspire beyond what scritpure tells them to do, and as such, they are themselves the disillusioned.
They all wan't us to be supermen, but that's more of a Nietzsche "Ubermensch" philosophy than anything biblical.
Jesus ordered His disciples/apostles to evangelize using His gospel accompanied by signs and wonders.
Paul said that he preached the "full" gospel (with signs and wonders).
Jesus has sent many thousands out to preach the gospel with signs and wonders.
Jesus sent me out to preach the gospel with signs and wonders.
Jesus does not send out everyone to do this.

Jesus calls many people to be prayer warriors, intercessors, etc.
To me, even answered prayers are miraclulous.
To me, when God does something that humans cannot do, it's miraculous.
That's just me.

But, what's this got to do with the baptism with the Holy Spirit not being connected with salvation?
.
 
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TasManOfGod

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Just so things are clear, you are talking about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit being subsequent to our initially receiving the Spirit at the moment of salvation?
At salvation we are baptised into Jesus as a result of us receiving the ministry of the Holy Spirit ie the ministry of bringing salvation to the unbeliever. Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a subseqent event because Christ (now) in us is the baptiser.
 
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