Magic Puppet Theory

[Montalban]

The magic puppet theory.

In talking about the formation of the Bible (which took place some 200 years or more after Jesus) I ask people how God worked with the church.

Some say that God can work with whomever he chooses.

I've heard it said that even by this time the church had already fallen into apostasy (some say it was changed by Constantine).

I believe this can be summed up in the 'Magic Puppet Theory'

It's a belief that God just worked these people and got them to compile a bible as a puppet-master manipulates his charges.

The church, if it was already apostate seems to just be manipulated into acting.

Of course, if it wasn't 'apostate' by this time then the theorists open themselves to me and others using evidence from writers of the church for those first centuries.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Magic Puppet Theory

I believe this can be summed up in the 'Magic Puppet Theory'

It's a belief that God just worked these people and got them to compile a bible as a puppet-master manipulates his charges.

Great thread! Subscribing

Puppet Master Tribute - YouTube

 

[Montalban]

If you're going to be a Protestant then you're reacting against the Church.

If you're reacting against the Church you need to be justified in your reaction.

It's therefore essential to claim that the Church has fallen away and that you're only going back to the way things were before the Church fell away.

This however leaves the problem of "When?" as in when did the Church fall away.

Some would choose right after the time of the Apostles. If this is so, then God's still working with the Church centuries later when the Bible is compiled.

Hence the "God just works with whomever he chooses" retort.


(others suggest it happened at the time of Constantine)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

If you're going to be a Protestant then you're reacting against the Church.

If you're reacting against the Church you need to be justified in your reaction......

Ya mean like my bro and patron saint W. Tyndale did

http://www.christianforums.com/t7495160-20/#post55593096
Tyndale and defying the Pope

Tyndale was infuriated by such Roman Catholic heresies, and he replied, “I defy the Pope and all his laws.
If God spare my life ere many years, I will cause the boy that drives the plow to know more of the scriptures than you!”

 

[Montalban]

That's like it. Then he's got to decide when they fell away

 

[Standing Up]

Have you read the OT provided us as an example (Paul)?

 

[Montalban]

Some sentences don't make sense

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The magic puppet theory.

In talking about the formation of the Bible (which took place some 200 years or more after Jesus) I ask people how God worked with the church.

Some say that God can work with whomever he chooses.

I've heard it said that even by this time the church had already fallen into apostasy (some say it was changed by Constantine).

I believe this can be summed up in the 'Magic Puppet Theory'

It's a belief that God just worked these people and got them to compile a bible as a puppet-master manipulates his charges.

The church, if it was already apostate seems to just be manipulated into acting.

Of course, if it wasn't 'apostate' by this time then the theorists open themselves to me and others using evidence from writers of the church for those first centuries.

Sounds a lot like this Church in Revelation

Revelation 17:1 And came One out of the seven Messengers having the seven bowls and he speaks with me saying to me "Hither thou! I shall be showing to thee the judgement of the great prostitute/pornhV <4204>, the one sitting upon the many waters"

 

[MamaZ]

Scripture is inspired by God. God by His wonderful grace opens the eyes of His chosen to understand the scriptures. His Spirit lives within each and every true believer for we are His temple. Therefore His scripture is to reproof and correct things that have gone astray in the eyes of traditions that have taken a course of either adding to the scripture or taking away from. This is why we have some of us that take the Scripture as the final authority in what is and is not truth.

 

[MamaZ]

Kind of like a pot of boiling water. Those raised on scripture wont stay in a boiling pot of water because it is hot and those raised on tradtions of men don't even know the water in the pot is starting to boil and they will stay there till death.

 

[Dorothea]

Kind of like a pot of boiling water. Those raised on scripture wont stay in a boiling pot of water because it is hot and those raised on tradtions of men don't even know the water in the pot is starting to boil and they will stay there till death.

Ah, the frog in the boiling water story. Except I remember the story a bit differently. It was about the watering down of the beliefs passed on by Christ to His Apostles.

 

[MamaZ]

Ah, the frog in the boiling water story. Except I remember the story a bit differently. It was about the watering down of the beliefs passed on by Christ to His Apostles.

Well through the Scriptures we see what was passed down. This is why I stick to scripture as my Authority. I do see alot of tradition though taking scripture out of context to uhold the tradition.

 

[Dorothea]

Well through the Scriptures we see what was passed down. This is why I stick to scripture as my Authority. I do see alot of tradition though taking scripture out of context to uhold the tradition.

I realize you do that. I don't know if you realize that Scripture as the sole authority was never the case until the Reformation came along. It was always part of Holy Tradition, yes, an important part, mind you, but never alone. The Bible does not say so in the written texts.

Well, we shouldn't mix man-made traditions that are ones that are strange and not to be followed, with the Apostolic Tradition given by Christ. There truly is Christ's Tradition (Apostolic) and man-made traditions. We are to follow the former but not the latter.

 

[Standing Up]

I realize you do that. I don't know if you realize that Scripture as the sole authority was never the case until the Reformation came along. It was always part of Holy Tradition, yes, an important part, mind you, but never alone. The Bible does not say so in the written texts.

Well, we shouldn't mix man-made traditions that are ones that are strange and not to be followed, with the Apostolic Tradition given by Christ. There truly is Christ's Tradition (Apostolic) and man-made traditions. We are to follow the former but not the latter.

Irenaeus c200ad said otherwise:
1. We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.iv.ii.html?highlight=pillar,scripture#highlightScriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.iv.ii.html

It may be that the idea of Scripture and Holy Tradition as equal in authority was born at the Reformation

 

[Montalban]

I don't like it when ECFs are being misquoted, and it's especially odd when someone would be appealing to an ECF as an authority on a subject to attempt to show that the ECFs have no authority because the bible alone does!

Irenaeus starts this off with what should be a 'clue' to his meaning here.

"The apostles did not commence to preach the Gospel, or to place anything on record until they were endowed with the gifts and power of the Holy Spirit. They preached one God alone, Maker of heaven and earth."
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

If the bible alone was their sole authority then it's to say that they didn't start to write things down until it was written down!

Which makes no sense.

In other words the Apostles themselves did not rely solely on the bible.

The bible certainly is a pillar!

It says that they didn't begin to preach before they had perfect knowledge. How could they have had perfect knowledge without the bible?

If they needed the bible first how could they have written it?

 

[Incariol]

Kind of like a pot of boiling water. Those raised on scripture wont stay in a boiling pot of water because it is hot and those raised on tradtions of men don't even know the water in the pot is starting to boil and they will stay there till death.

...Disproved by the fact that people "raised on scripture" (which is all Christians, but I realize you are pretending only Protestants are by this) convert to join "those raised on the tradtions [sic] of men" (by which again you pretend only means Catholic and Orthodox).

 

[Standing Up]

Irenaeus c200ad said otherwise:
1. We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

So much for the magic puppet theory.

 

[Standing Up]

I realize you do that. I don't know if you realize that Scripture as the sole authority was never the case until the Reformation came along. It was always part of Holy Tradition, yes, an important part, mind you, but never alone. The Bible does not say so in the written texts.

Well, we shouldn't mix man-made traditions that are ones that are strange and not to be followed, with the Apostolic Tradition given by Christ. There truly is Christ's Tradition (Apostolic) and man-made traditions. We are to follow the former but not the latter.

More on Irenaeus arguing against tradition.

Chapter VIII.—How the Valentinians pervert the Scriptures to support their own pious opinions.

1. Such, then, is their system, which neither the prophets announced, nor the Lord taught, nor the apostles delivered, but of which they boast that beyond all others they have a perfect knowledge. They gather their views from other sources than the Scriptures;27502750 Literally, “reading from things unwritten.” and, to use a common proverb, they strive to weave ropes of sand, while they endeavour to adapt with an air of probability to their own peculiar assertions the parables of the Lord, the sayings of the prophets, and the words of the apostles, in order that their scheme may not seem altogether without support.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Then later in his Against Heresies:
1. We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

See the contrast between those heretics who introduce beliefs apart from scripture and apostolic teaching? Yet, they still try to employ scripture to support some later doctrine!

 

[Montalban]

I've already noted that Irenaeus is accurate to say that scriptures are a pillar of faith.

The problem is that there's no quote from him saying that they're the only pillar of faith.

Big difference.

And the illogic that the Apostles rely on a scripture that wasn't existent has also not been addressed.

 

[Montalban]

Citing the following:

1. We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.

Actually is a continuation of the Protestant "Magic Puppet Theory" because God just planned it and used people to set out his scripture.