Is God not ultimately in Control?

[Beautiful Ignorance]

Because we can trust in God's promises.

I believe wholeheartedly that we can trust in God's promises but I don't have the problem of a secondary evil deity in my religion.

Read the Bible.. he was kicked out of heaven. Pride got the best of him.

First of all, the origins of the evil christian deity is given no where in the bible but was invented some time later by John Milton.

Secondly, don't you see a problem with the idea that one of god's own angels, who stands in the very presence of the almighty, would rebel? That goes way beyond pride to outright insanity on the very deepest level.

I'd rather him be here for a short period of time than in Heaven (a place thats supposed to be paradise) for any longer. I want him the heck outta here, but God will deal with him with Justice accordingly, and I trust God enough to allow Him to do that.

If one of God's angel were to rebel (and I guess that Satan would be the one of the least likely considering his job), justice would be served by having that angel committed to the heavenly insane asylum and given some hard core antipsychotic medication.

You really don't need to try and make me fearful of the devil when I've already told you he has no power over you. That means he has no power over me, too.

I'm not trying make you fearful of the devil. If anything, my goal is just the opposite as I don't believe any such thing as a devil exists.

Many Christians I have encountered are fearful of the devil and I really think it's quite sad.

Now you, I would be worried, actually. If you're not finding refuge in Christ alone, you are "fresh meat" and susceptible to the devil's schemes. I don't take you to be so lacking in the common sense dept. so much so that you wouldn't be able to tell me how to overcome this.(Phil4:13)

You are suggesting that I worship a man as God. I'm baffled as to why you don't see a problem with that.

 

[Beautiful Ignorance]

In a way though, ignorance is bliss.. When it comes with the devil. If youre not on Christ's team, he doesn't have much interest in you. It's like recruiting for the army..they don't recruit people they already have.

This is another huge problem with a believe in a devil. You assume people being on the devil's team for reasons having nothing whatsoever to do with morality. Some of the very best people i have ever met were not Christians but Buddhists, Jews and Hindi. And some of the worst people I ever met were protestant Christians (I have had no actual IRL interaction with the Orthodox. All the Catholics that I have know were really good people.) I can't imagine that any place that was populated by only Protestant Christians while excluding the Buddhists, Jews and Hindi that I know would be a heaven. Sounds more like a Hell to me.

 

[Beautiful Ignorance]

It isn't the devil's territory, it is ours. The devil gets into the world when we give him the right to direct our lives. Notice that this is one of the first lessons in the bible: we either trust God and obey His advice, or we choose to believe a lie (Genesis 3:4).

That's a literalist reading of Genesis. I am not a literalist and read that completely differently than you do.

Jesus said the devil is the father of lies, so when we believe a lie we are choosing to give authority of our mind to the devil.

I do agree that the devil is the father of lies. So much so that the devil himself is a lie.

 

[pinkputter]

This is another huge problem with a believe in a devil. You assume people being on the devil's team for reasons having nothing whatsoever to do with morality. Some of the very best people i have ever met were not Christians but Buddhists, Jews and Hindi. And some of the worst people I ever met were protestant Christians (I have had no actual IRL interaction with the Orthodox. All the Catholics that I have know were really good people.) I can't imagine that any place that was populated by only Protestant Christians while excluding the Buddhists, Jews and Hindi that I know would be a heaven. Sounds more like a Hell to me.

Ok... you misunderstood what I was saying. But now I have a better understanding of your background which is a good thing.

Do you understand how the devil works? If we are just living a mediocre life and could care less about God or doing good, the devil wouldn't waste his time on you. He goes after "Christ's team" as I referred to before. I'm not saying anyone NOT on Christ's team is on the "devils team" I'm afraid it's not that black and white.

No, not everyone who says they are Christian actually have the Holy Spirit residing in them. Christians tend to be looked thru with a critical eye, and all I can tell you is to look for the good and not the bad. I'm sure you can find at least one good Christian out there and see how God has transformed their life, for the good. It's extremely eye-opening experience

 

[Beautiful Ignorance]

Erm, no. If you think the Devil in Christianity is some kind of deity, you got it wrong.

I think it depends on what branch of Christianity we are talking about. I have been attending Catholic Mass since about July or August and RCIA since September of this year and have even started to make some friends in the church and no mention at all has been made of any devil. It doesn't seem to really be a part of Catholicism.

The protestants I grew up with were all into devil worship. They were constantly talking about attackes from the devil and they were constantly rebuking Satan in the name of Jesus. This was during the Satanic Scare during the late 80s, early 90s and there were plenty of people telling stories about black magic, witch craft and Satanic spirits.

The talked about the devil so often that after a while, it crossed a line and became a form of devil worship.

Just prior to my deconversion, I attended the Church youth and young adult services for my age group and we'd often get people coming in there telling us all kind of crazy stories about their past as a Satanists and witches.

One night, some guy got up in front of everyone and confessed his sexual sins in graphic detail. It was obvious the guy wasn't really "confessing" but was actually bragging and I realized the devil worship people were doing the same thing.

 

[pinkputter]

I believe wholeheartedly that we can trust in God's promises but I don't have the problem of a secondary evil deity in my religion.

neither do I.

First of all, the origins of the evil christian deity is given no where in the bible but was invented some time later by John Milton.

Secondly, don't you see a problem with the idea that one of god's own angels, who stands in the very presence of the almighty, would rebel? That goes way beyond pride to outright insanity on the very deepest level.

If you read Revelation 12 you will see where one could make those conclusions.

Yeah I would say Satan is pretty insane. We agree here.

If one of God's angel were to rebel (and I guess that Satan would be the one of the least likely considering his job), justice would be served by having that angel committed to the heavenly insane asylum and given some hard core antipsychotic medication.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. If this is your explanation for your best "punishment" is to satan's disobedience is, you are welcome to have this opinion, but then again, you are not God.

I'm not trying make you fearful of the devil. If anything, my goal is just the opposite as I don't believe any such thing as a devil exists.

Many Christians I have encountered are fearful of the devil and I really think it's quite sad.

Right. I don't believe there is reason to fear the devil. But saying he doesn't exist doesn't make it so.

I have also seen Christians on this forum who misunderstand the nature of the devil. Instead of pitying them, I feel badly they have misunderstood all this time. I would try my best to redirect them, wherever they have gotten side-tracked, so they can better understand the enemy, and hopefully better understand how God is the answer to anything related to the battle we fight against the enemy. That's the whole point of why we even acknowledge his (the devils) existence. I could care less about him. But I know he can get in the way of me coming to know Jesus more, therefore I do anything to get his presence out of my life. A lot of that can be done by following Jesus.

You are suggesting that I worship a man as God. I'm baffled as to why you don't see a problem with that.

I actually don't know what you believe. You haven't outright told me. I am just discussing with you as much as you will allow and if you choose to disclose anything else, I am up for conversation.

I do have a question for you though. I'm guessing you serve a God, but not necessarily think that God is Jesus? Either way you answer this, I'd like to know..
Do you think Jesus was just hallucinating or something when He was in the desert and devil tempted Him 40 days and 40 nights? He was just thinking in His mind the "thing" was harrassing Him?
Just curious about your thoughts on this

 

[Beautiful Ignorance]

Satan is powerful? Really? Since when?

Question everything answered this to my satisfaction to refer to his post.

This same Satan who needs God's permission to attack Job and Peter? (Job 1:6-12, Lk 22:31)

Not quite. The Satan in the book of Job is identified as an angel and no indication is given that any Satan is doing anything more than his job.

The Satan in Luke is a devil.

The same Satan who is able to be resisted my mere man and flee in terror? (Eph 6:11, James 4:7)

Again, not the same Satan at all. The Satan in Job had an assignment and it appears to be to go visit calamity on people at the behest of God. He doesn't tempt anyone to do anything and it appears that if God sends him after you, there is nothing you can do about it other than take your punishment.

This is not the same Satan than can be resisted or who flees.

The same Satan who is caught and bound by a single angel in the end? (Rev 20:1-3)

Again, not the old Testament Satan.

This Satan is a deceiver (Jn 8:44, 1 Tim 3:7, 2 Tim 2:26, Rev 12:9, 20:10), and he tricks people. Some are tricked into believing he isn't there. Others are tricked to think he's something approaching God, Himself. Both are wrong, because neither is what is revealed about him.

You quote all from the New Testament because there is nothing whatsoever in the Old Testament to support this view of Satan.

In the end, he goes down in a whimper, unable to fight, but taking the billions who allowed him to deceive them down with him.

And how exactly do you suppose this devil is able to do this if he isn't some kind of deity in his own right?

Also, when did his job change and why? I know the story about Lucifer getting kicked out of heaven and becoming the devil. I also know there is no mention of a Lucifer anywhere in the entire bible and that story was invented by John Milton some centuries after the New Testament was written.

God allows him latitude now for our sake (Isa 54:16-17), so we may have a choice in whom to follow, because you either belong to God or you belong to Satan. It's your choice and there's no middle ground. (Mk 9:40, Lk 9:49, Jn 8:44)

[/quote]

That's really funny because through 9/10ths of your own bible (and all of mine) The choice is to either follow the One True God or to bow to a false god. Throughout the Old Testament, people were commanded not to bow to idols. There was no concern for any devil at all.

So where did this devil come from? Also, If he is really so significant, why is no mention of the devil made in the entire Old Testament?

 

[pinkputter]

The protestants I grew up with were all into devil worship. They were constantly talking about attackes from the devil and they were constantly rebuking Satan in the name of Jesus. This was during the Satanic Scare during the late 80s, early 90s and there were plenty of people telling stories about black magic, witch craft and Satanic spirits.

The talked about the devil so often that after a while, it crossed a line and became a form of devil worship.

Just prior to my deconversion, I attended the Church youth and young adult services for my age group and we'd often get people coming in there telling us all kind of crazy stories about their past as a Satanists and witches.

One night, some guy got up in front of everyone and confessed his sexual sins in graphic detail. It was obvious the guy wasn't really "confessing" but was actually bragging and I realized the devil worship people were doing the same thing.

Ok... That's messed up.

 

[Beautiful Ignorance]

Where in the Bible does it say that Satan can resist God's will?

I'm not sure it does. A great deal of the devil mythology, including his origins, come from extra-biblical sources.

Where does it say that Satan was God's servant?

The very first time Satan is mentioned the bible, the very first thing that is said about him is he a son of God:

"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them." Job 1:6

ATMK, The phrase "sons of God" in this passage means angels.

This isn't the way that Satan is portrayed anywhere in the Bible.[ This is who Satan is:

Satan was once an angel of God by the name of Lucifer. Lucifer's story is in both the OT and NT.

No, it's not. It's in the book of Paradise Lost. There is no mention of any Lucifer anywhere in the Bible. Some earlier English translations refer to a King that was refered to as Lucifer due to translation error. Most more recent translations correct the error and thus no mention of Lucifer is ever made.

Lucifer was actually a Babylonian god, never part of the Jewish mythos and not a part of the Christian mythos until more than a thousand years after the life of Jesus.

While Michael was called the prince of angels, Lucifer was given dominion over the earth. He was a seraphim, a protector of God's glory, and he was the most beautiful of angels. Lucifer grew envious of God's throne, and so he gathered a third of the angels to rebel, and they lost their standing in Heaven. Satan, however, retained his authority over the earth, hence his title as "ruler of the air."

Yeah, I'm familiar with the story. Because I've read Paradise lost. You might try reading it yourself. And while your at it, actually read the Bible for yourself instead of just taking for granted that the story is really in there because someone else told you it was.

After the fall of the angels, Satan tried a similar tactic with Adam and Eve, trying to convince them that they could be like God. God did not ask Satan to do this, nor did He appreciate it. Satan was never God's right-hand man, but he was a rebel.

And where did you get that from? There is no mention at all of any devil in the book of Genesis. I know you are thinking and maybe wanting to reply, "But the devil tempted Adam and Eve."

No, a serpent tempted Adam and Eve. And that serpent is never identified as Satan or a devil. There is no mention of any devil anywhere in that story or any other story in the entire book of Genesis or anywhere else in the Old Testament.

Satan, whose very name means "accuser," stands before God and accuses us night and day (Rev. 12:10). In the end, Satan and all of his angels will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. God is more powerful than all of them.

No, Satan means the opposer, or the adversary and in the Old Testament, it could refer to any opponent or enemy of the protagonist of the story. In the book of Job, the name Satan is the title of the angel that God sicks on Job. It is not elevated to a proper name until the New Testament.

Now you'll probably bring up a few problem verses, but these are easily explained. For instance, I'm sure you have Job in mind.

Indeed I did because that is the only mention of an angle called Satan in the entire Old Testament.

In Job, Satan was roaming the earth, looking for people to corrupt, but he was coming up dry.

Share the verse, please that says the part that is in bold. Because my copy of the bible makes no mention of that part. I have a feeling you might have read something into the text that isn't actually there. It seems you did the same with Genesis.

God then suggested Job, who was a man in right standing with God. Satan then attacked Job, his family, and his possessions, but he did so within the limits of what God would allow.

Actually, God kind of told him to. Satan suggested to God that he strike Job and God says, "why don't you go do it." Here it is:

"8 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

12 The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.” "

You probably look at this and claim that Satan was working for God, but this isn't true.

But what are you basing that on? I don't see anything at all in the text that suggests anything other than Satan is just following orders from God.

Satan's intentions were not to help God, but because Satan cannot do anything that God did not already preordain him to do, all he can do is try. Anything that one (such as Satan) intends for evil, God intends for good.

And you know this how? There is no mention that Satan's intentions are good, evil or anything else because no mention of Satan's motives are made at all.

Genesis 50:20 - You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.

Wrong, this verse isn't in reference to the devil. This verse is Joseph talking to his brothers.

"18 His brothers then came and threw themselves down before him. “We are your slaves,” they said.

19 But Joseph said to them, “Don’t be afraid. Am I in the place of God? 20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives. 21 So then, don’t be afraid. I will provide for you and your children.” And he reassured them and spoke kindly to them."

Romans 8:28 - And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

I agree with this verse, even if I don't think that the New Testament was divinely inspired. But this verse doesn't really support your argument in and of itself.

The Bible is consistent when it comes to the nature of God and Satan.

The Old Testament is consistent when it comes to the nature of God but the OT is not consistent with the New because in the OT, God is not a man:

Numbers 23:19
New International Version (NIV)

"19 God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?"

Also the Satan in the OT is only mentioned in the book of Job and what little is said about him is nothing whatsoever like the Satan in the NT. Read my reply to Faulty for the details on that.

God is all-powerful, and Satan is the enemy who wishes he was God.

Again, that's a New Testament view. In the OT, there is no mention at all of a devil.

 

[Beautiful Ignorance]

Excuse me but, Job seems to be in the OT. There, satan acts in his own accord. Nowhere is he ever pegged as "full fledged deity."

I've already discussed this in previous posts but to reiterate, the Satan in Job shares nothing in common with the devil of the NT. Also, he doesn't act on his own accord but is directed by God. Consider the following:

6 One day the angels[a] came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”

Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”

8 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

Okay, here, it is God that draws Satan's attention to Job. Everything from there follows from that. If Satan had mentioned Job first, you' might have a case but that's not what happened here.

Nowhere more than Genesis 3:1, anyway.

There is no mention of Satan anywhere in the entire book of Genesis.

Absurd, yes. Infinite, no. And if you want to look at a force that can oppose G-d, just look in the mirror.

I cannot oppose the will of God. No man can.

 

[GrayAngel]

The idea of Satan as an angel opposed to God is not new. It was around in the OT, and it was prominent in Jesus' time too.

There first story of Adam and Eve involved Satan as the tempter. Then Isaiah told the story of the fall of the Morning Star (Lucifer):

Isaiah 14:12-17 - How you have fallen from heaven,
morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
You said in your heart,
“I will ascend to the heavens;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.
I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.”
But you are brought down to the realm of the dead,
to the depths of the pit.

Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
“Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,
the man who made the world a wilderness,
who overthrew its cities
and would not let his captives go home?”

The above is understood to carry a double meaning. It refers both to the King of Babylon, which literally tried to build a city to Heaven, and also to the power which inspired the king (Satan).

Ephesians refers to the dark forces from Heaven which they oppose:

Ephesians 6:12 - For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Jude 1:9 also makes an allusion to an extra Biblical text called the Testament of Moses, which told a story of Michael guarding the body of Moses from Satan.

Ezekiel tells of a cherub (an angel) who was present in the garden of Eden and who fell from glory. Similar to the passage from Isaiah, it is addressed to the a physical ruler, but it speaks beyond the king and to the power behind him.

Ezekiel 28:11-17 - The word of the LORD came to me: “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says:

“‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.

The book of Revelation offers even further insight into this invisible ruler.

Revelation 12:1-9 - A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Notice the similar use of imagery? The stars of Heaven, and some power that is hurled to the earth? The dragon was Satan, and he had a following of angels who attempted to expand his rule. As a result, they were thrown out of Heaven.

 

[Beautiful Ignorance]

Ok... you misunderstood what I was saying. But now I have a better understanding of your background which is a good thing.

Do you understand how the devil works? If we are just living a mediocre life and could care less about God or doing good, the devil wouldn't waste his time on you. He goes after "Christ's team" as I referred to before. I'm not saying anyone NOT on Christ's team is on the "devils team" I'm afraid it's not that black and white.

Let's just assume for a minute that there really is a devil. Judging by the history books, it seems quite clear and obvious that the devil couldn't care less about the Christians. It is the Jews that he is after.

No, not everyone who says they are Christian actually have the Holy Spirit residing in them. Christians tend to be looked thru with a critical eye, and all I can tell you is to look for the good and not the bad. I'm sure you can find at least one good Christian out there and see how God has transformed their life, for the good. It's extremely eye-opening experience

I look at both the good and the bad. I have met many good Christians (mostly catholics but a few protestants as well) and many bad. I believe that the good Christians that have met do have the Holy Spirit.

But I have also spent enough time with non-Christians who had the Holy Spirit than Jesus doesn't seem to be a prerequisite for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Other factors seem to be more important.

 

[GrayAngel]

I look at both the good and the bad. I have met many good Christians (mostly catholics but a few protestants as well) and many bad. I believe that the good Christians that have met do have the Holy Spirit.

But I have also spent enough time with non-Christians who had the Holy Spirit than Jesus doesn't seem to be a prerequisite for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Other factors seem to be more important.

The Holy Spirit only lives in believers. Non-Christians cannot have the Holy Spirit, or do you think that the Holy Spirit = being a good person? The Holy Spirit is God, and God does not live in the godless.

 

[Beautiful Ignorance]

neither do I.




If you read Revelation 12 you will see where one could make those conclusions.

I see where Milton got his ideas but the actual myth about the angel Lucifer in all its gory details began with Milton.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. If this is your explanation for your best "punishment" is to satan's disobedience is, you are welcome to have this opinion, but then again, you are not God.

I was kind of joking. My point is that the idea that any angel would be so insane, or that God would create an angel that is so completely lacking in an ability to connect with reality is just a bit silly, IMO.

Right. I don't believe there is reason to fear the devil. But saying he doesn't exist doesn't make it so.

I have also seen Christians on this forum who misunderstand the nature of the devil. Instead of pitying them, I feel badly they have misunderstood all this time. I would try my best to redirect them, wherever they have gotten side-tracked, so they can better understand the enemy, and hopefully better understand how God is the answer to anything related to the battle we fight against the enemy. That's the whole point of why we even acknowledge his (the devils) existence. I could care less about him. But I know he can get in the way of me coming to know Jesus more, therefore I do anything to get his presence out of my life. A lot of that can be done by following Jesus.

Well, maybe I'll admit that I have listened to Satan somewhat as just ignoring him never works. My belief, and I derive this from the book of Job, is that God sends Satan after people as a last ditch effort to get their attention. So when Satan shows up, God's trying to tell you something and you'd better listen.

I actually don't know what you believe. You haven't outright told me. I am just discussing with you as much as you will allow and if you choose to disclose anything else, I am up for conversation.

I do have a question for you though. I'm guessing you serve a God, but not necessarily think that God is Jesus?

I am a Noahide. That is I am a gentile worshipper of the God of the Old Testament, but not the New. It's kind of like the gentile branch of Judaism.

In Genesis chapter 9, God made the Noahide covenant with all humankind and who ever keeps the Noahide covenant is considered a righteous gentile and will have a place in the world to come. Conversion to Judaism is not required.

It's kind of like the Rabbincal Jews are the priests of my religion and the Noahides are the congregation.

Either way you answer this, I'd like to know..
Do you think Jesus was just hallucinating or something when He was in the desert and devil tempted Him 40 days and 40 nights? He was just thinking in His mind the "thing" was harrassing Him?
Just curious about your thoughts on this

If he really went 40 days without eating, I can easily see how he'd be having some pretty wild hallucinations and that seems to me like an infinitely more likely scenario than him actually being a god and he was being harrassed by a devil.

 

[Myshkin99]

Yes, God is ultimately in control. 100% of what happens on earth and in heaven is God's will. It is that simple.

Either that, or God himself has a God to answer to, and a set a metaphysical constraints he can't bend to his will.

I vacillate between these opinions, but in either case, there's nothing we can do about it. It's kind of like being in a airplane going 400 mph at 35,000 feet. There's no sense panicking because you have absolutely no control of the situation. Just enjoy the view.

 

[Beautiful Ignorance]

The idea of Satan as an angel opposed to God is not new. It was around in the OT, and it was prominent in Jesus' time too.

There first story of Adam and Eve involved Satan as the tempter. Then Isaiah told the story of the fall of the Morning Star (Lucifer):

I already covered this in my first reply to you. That is I already covered that neither a Satan nor a devil is mentioned anywhere in Genesis.

Isaiah 14:12-17 - How you have fallen from heaven,
morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
You said in your heart,
“I will ascend to the heavens;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.
I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.”
But you are brought down to the realm of the dead,
to the depths of the pit.

Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
“Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,
the man who made the world a wilderness,
who overthrew its cities
and would not let his captives go home?”

The phrase "Morning Star" was also another way of refering to an ancient Babylonian god called Lucifer because Lucifer was also the name by which they called the planet Venus. In earlier English translations, such as the King James Version, the word Lucifer was used in place of Morning Star but this was later seen to be a translation error.

As for this being about some devil, it's not. The text itself identifies the subject of this passage as a man.

The above is understood to carry a double meaning. It refers both to the King of Babylon, which literally tried to build a city to Heaven, and also to the power which inspired the king (Satan).

And what in the text would make you think it has a double meaning?

Ephesians refers to the dark forces from Heaven which they oppose:

Ephesians 6:12 - For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Jude 1:9 also makes an allusion to an extra Biblical text called the Testament of Moses, which told a story of Michael guarding the body of Moses from Satan.

Both Ephesians and Jude are New Testament. My argument is that there is no devil in the Old Testament. I concede that the NT has a devil and so this really doesn't support your case.

Ezekiel tells of a cherub (an angel) who was present in the garden of Eden and who fell from glory. Similar to the passage from Isaiah, it is addressed to the a physical ruler, but it speaks beyond the king and to the power behind him.

Ezekiel 28:11-17 - The word of the LORD came to me: “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says:

“‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.

You claim a double meaning because a straight forward reading of the text does not support the claim there was a devil. But there is nothing here indicating a double meaning.

The book of Revelation offers even further insight into this invisible ruler.

Revelation 12:1-9 - A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Notice the similar use of imagery? The stars of Heaven, and some power that is hurled to the earth? The dragon was Satan, and he had a following of angels who attempted to expand his rule. As a result, they were thrown out of Heaven.

Revelation is New Testament. I really don't understand what it is you are hoping to convince me of. I already know there is a devil in the NT. There's no argument there.

 

[Beautiful Ignorance]

The Holy Spirit only lives in believers. Non-Christians cannot have the Holy Spirit,

Well, obviously you are wrong because I have met to many nonChristians that did in fact have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. You probably have to unless you have lead a very limited existence and have not had much contact with nonChristians. You just didn't realize it because you insist what is cannot be or that you just assumed they were a Christian when they were not.

or do you think that the Holy Spirit = being a good person?

Not just being a good person, although being a good person is part of it. People that have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit have servant's hearts.

The Holy Spirit is God, and God does not live in the godless.

Never said they did. Have no idea at all where you got the idea that I was suggesting any such thing. Unless you, of course you think that a person has to worship a man to have God. In which case, I suggest you rethink your theology.

 

[pinkputter]

I look at both the good and the bad. I have met many good Christians (mostly catholics but a few protestants as well) and many bad. I believe that the good Christians that have met do have the Holy Spirit.

But I have also spent enough time with non-Christians who had the Holy Spirit than Jesus doesn't seem to be a prerequisite for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Other factors seem to be more important.

I agree with GrayAngel here. The Bible talks about deception, and I think you have been rather misguided on this. I am just being open and honest here.

You can call it whatever you want, but it is not the Holy Spirit. That Spirit is reserved for God's chosen people, only

Humans are capable of having learned goodness, and this goodness can come from teachings outside of Jesus' /God

But, I'm telling you from personal experience. The goodness you experience between a believer, is not the same as goodness you can see in another person. It's not bad, to see good in other people. That's a great quality to have. But you have to know, not all these so called "good" people will be in Heaven. It comes down to a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I do believe Jewish are saved though I don't know all the details there. I have a shirt that says, "Being GOOD isn't GOOD enough"

 

[ChristianT]

I agree with GrayAngel here. The Bible talks about deception, and I think you have been rather misguided on this. I am just being open and honest here.

You can call it whatever you want, but it is not the Holy Spirit. That Spirit is reserved for God's chosen people, only

Humans are capable of having learned goodness, and this goodness can come from teachings outside of Jesus' /God

But, I'm telling you from personal experience. The goodness you experience between a believer, is not the same as goodness you can see in another person. It's not bad, to see good in other people. That's a great quality to have. But you have to know, not all these so called "good" people will be in Heaven. It comes down to a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I do believe Jewish are saved though I don't know all the details there. I have a shirt that says, "Being GOOD isn't GOOD enough"

I agree with you. I think in the gospels, or Romans, it was written that those who had/have a relationship w/ Jesus Christ will have eternal life. However Jews CAN be saved to, but only by following the law and simply doing so out of love and respect for God, or as in judaism, "YHVH;" Jehovah. All different names of God, describing his attributes. Anyway, I think it was said that people who didn't hear the message of Christ will be judged on the Law. So the Jews who loved God with all their soul, body, and mind, and loved their neighbor will be in good standing with God. (ultimately however, God is the Judge - not me! )

Peace!

 

[GrayAngel]

Well, obviously you are wrong because I have met to many nonChristians that did in fact have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. You probably have to unless you have lead a very limited existence and have not had much contact with nonChristians. You just didn't realize it because you insist what is cannot be or that you just assumed they were a Christian when they were not.



Not just being a good person, although being a good person is part of it. People that have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit have servant's hearts.

No. The heart of a servant has existed long before the Holy Spirit came. The Holy Spirit was something new that was introduced to the first century Christians on the Pentecost. The Holy Spirit empowers Christians to do what they are unable to do themselves, such as speaking in tongues that were never spoken.

Never said they did. Have no idea at all where you got the idea that I was suggesting any such thing. Unless you, of course you think that a person has to worship a man to have God. In which case, I suggest you rethink your theology.

Non-Christians are godless. The only way to the Father is through Christ. Any other "God" but the God of the Christian Bible is nothing but a shadow of the real thing.

God does not live in the unrepentant sinner. No one who is not a Christian can repent because they don't accept the forgiveness that comes only from Christ's sacrifice.