I've got a couple of questions

[razeontherock]

No, I'm not talking about several people doing different roles, I'm talking about 1 God, being, person, etc. doing everything as he feels necessary.

So am I!

So it is your position that had Jesus revealed himself as God to everyone, the Jewish Leaders would not have conspired to have him killed?

Not necessarily, no. The Sanhedrin might have been swayed that He was a Just man, and they might have tried to set Him up as a (weak, temporary) King, as did Peter. Here's the proper perspective:

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory: (1 Corinthians 2:8) Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."

Put that together with the passage that says Christ is the Wisdom of God, and you have what I referred to.

PS would you mind providing the scripture where Jesus revealed himself as God to be worshipped and prayed to?

"And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. (John 14:14) If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it]."

"And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: (Rev 1:18) I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."

This is something Muslims never see, but Angels always refuse worship, not being God. The phrase here "fell at His feet," indicates worship. Jesus didn't refuse it, He not only received it but encouraged it. VERY significant!

 

[razeontherock]

Are you suggesting the trinity helps us understand God?

It is a revelation. It helps some people. Those that it does not help, shouldn't get worried over it. Judgment Day is not a pop quiz!

So is God the father a fraction/part of the whole entity which is God?

For someone who understand Trinity, to say the "the Father" is the entirety of
G-d, would be a false statement. Here is OT, which corresponds perfectly to Father Son and Holy Ghost:

(Isaiah 33:22) "For the LORD [is] our judge, the LORD [is] our lawgiver, the LORD [is] our king; he will save us."

See how each, "will save us?" There is only one Salvation, not 3. They all work in concert, because they are One. Some say this cannot be understood, because our carnal minds truly cannot grasp this, but it is Spiritually discerned. Others have grown Spiritually, to the point that thinking along these lines presents no barrier. No worries, but seeing signs of life is good!

 

[drich0150]

Why must God be restricted to "roles"?

For our comprehension of God.

Why can't 1 God, 1 person, etc just do what is necessary when he feels necessary?

Would you be able to understand if He did this in one personage?

Also, in a previous thread titled "Please explain the Trinity" there was almost a consensus among many of the replies that the trinity was so far above our heads that us humans will never be able to fully understand it.

Comprehension is only as deep as the person looking to comprehend. For a simple man comprehension of the trinity is well with in grasp. I do not need to think I know all of the ins and outs of the deity of God there fore i can except the simplicity of the trinity.

So how can you claim the trinity helps us understand God?

Because It describes the different roles of God. It allows a division so the we can understand How Christ could Pray to the Father that his will be Done, Or How God can Live with in us and yet still reside in Heaven.

It seems to cause more confusion than anything else don't cha think?

That depends on what one tries to do with this knowledge.

So would you agree that Jesus did not want to be worshiped?

Not till the appropriate time. (after the resurrection)

Also would you mind providing the scripture that supports this?

Happily:
Mat 16: 13 (O)Now when Jesus came into the district of (P)Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, “Who do people say that (Q)the Son of Man is?” 14 And they said, “Some say (R)John the Baptist; and others, [h](S)Elijah; but still others, [i]Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.” 15 He *said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are [j](T)the Christ, (U)the Son of (V)the living God.” 17 And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, (W)Simon [k]Barjona, because (X)flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 I also say to you that you are [l](Y)Peter, and upon this [m]rock I will build My church; and the gates of (Z)Hades will not overpower it. 19 I will give you (AA)the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and (AB)whatever you bind on earth [n]shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth [o]shall have been loosed in heaven.” 20 (AC)Then He [p]warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was [q](AD)the Christ.

 

[hedrick]

On the second question: Jesus' family didn't worship him during his life. Indeed they seem to have been skeptical about him. However his brother James became a leader of the Church, and I believe Mary was as well. It's hard to be certain whether and in what sense they worshipped him. If the letter of James is actually by James, it refers to the Lord Jesus Christ, which indicates something close to worship. Acts shows him as a believer, and referring to Jesus as Lord, but it's hard to know exactly what relationship he saw between Jesus and God.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

Are you suggesting the trinity helps us understand God? On a previous thread titled “please explain the trinity” there was almost a consensus among many repliers that the trinity was so far above our heads that we will never fully understand it. So how can you say it helps us understand God? Seems to cause more confusion than anything else!

I think it helps us to understand God in a relational sense. As to how the Trinity actually "works" is beyond me. All I can come up with is a few week analogies. I don't think there is anything truly physical that we can point to and say that this is JUST like the Trinity.

I'm not a fan of the school of thought that says I am a weak human being unable to understand therefore obey. I recognize I am a weak human being with a finite mind but I will endlessly seek to understand and will choose freely when and what to obey. Obeying because of lack of understanding is ignorance.

So is God the father a fraction/part of the whole entity which is God?

If God is infinite, then think of the ocean which I described earlier as infinite. If you have an infinite amount of something, then fractions lose all meaning. Infinite deep waters divided by infinite ocean = undefined.

Infinity/infinity is mathematically undefined. Infinity is indivisible

Bark, leaves, roots, (and other things) are only a fraction/part of a tree and only when together can they make up a complete tree. Thus far nobody wants’ to claim the Father, son and HS are only a fraction/part of God and only a complete God when together; do you?

I'm actually not as much of a fan of the tree analogy for precisely the reason you've pointed out: the parts are too distinct. Lets go back to the ocean analogy.

The parts of the ocean can't be separated. Can you separate deep water, currents and waves from each other? Can you pry them apart to see how each behaves on its own? They are all part of a dynamic fluid and yet they are distinct in that they serve different purposes.

I don't claim that they are fractions of each other. They can't be separated. God the Father separated from the Holy Spirit would be as nonsensical as claiming you'd separated an ocean current from the water.

 

[Ken-1122]

So am I!

No unless you have changed positions and are now claiming Jesus and the Holy Spirit are no longer God; you and I are talking something totally different.

K

 

[Ken-1122]

For someone who understand Trinity, to say the "the Father" is the entirety of
G-d, would be a false statement. Here is OT, which corresponds perfectly to Father Son and Holy Ghost:

(Isaiah 33:22) "For the LORD [is] our judge, the LORD [is] our lawgiver, the LORD [is] our king; he will save us."

See how each, "will save us?" There is only one Salvation, not 3. They all work in concert, because they are One. Some say this cannot be understood, because our carnal minds truly cannot grasp this, but it is Spiritually discerned. Others have grown Spiritually, to the point that thinking along these lines presents no barrier. No worries, but seeing signs of life is good!

I don't think you;ve answered my question; if you did I can't find the answer from what you've said; so you might have to help me out. I was looking for a "yes" or "no" answer; but let me ask it again.
Would you say "God the father" is a part/fraction of the trinity? Is the trinity God?
A simple yes or no answer will do; anything more will probably only confuse me.

Ken

 

[razeontherock]

No unless you have changed positions and are now claiming Jesus and the Holy Spirit are no longer God; you and I are talking something totally different.

K

Nope, you're just not seeing it. And it's not that important that you do, really.

 

[razeontherock]

Would you say "God the father" is a part/fraction of the trinity?

Part and fraction are 2 different things, in this context.

Is the trinity God?

Yes

 

[Ken-1122]

For our comprehension of God.

So is it your opinion that when God restricts himself to specific roles it is easier for us humans to understand him? is that what you are saying?

Would you be able to understand if He did this in one personage?

Yes I think it would be easier for me to understand if God were one person doing everything; but that's just me.

K

 

[razeontherock]

So is it your opinion that when God restricts himself to specific roles it is easier for us humans to understand him? is that what you are saying?

Esp certain passages, become much more readily understood

Yes I think it would be easier for me to understand if God were one person doing everything; but that's just me.

K

Then think of it that way. Seriously! Nothing wrong with that, whatsoever. but if you come upon oddities in text where you find you can't do that, you have a tool to help you relate ...

 

[Ken-1122]

If God is infinite, then think of the ocean which I described earlier as infinite. If you have an infinite amount of something, then fractions lose all meaning. Infinite deep waters divided by infinite ocean = undefined.

Infinity/infinity is mathematically undefined. Infinity is indivisible

In the context of this conversation; I don't think you could say God is infinite because there are only a limited number of things that could be called "God". I am not God, you are not God, this computer I am typing on is not God; etc. What is being called God is the father, son, and HS; that's it.
Now the question is; would you agree the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, each a part/fraction of the entity of which we call the trinity? Is God the trinity?

The parts of the ocean can't be separated. Can you separate deep water, currents and waves from each other? Can you pry them apart to see how each behaves on its own? They are all part of a dynamic fluid and yet they are distinct in that they serve different purposes.

I don't claim that they are fractions of each other. They can't be separated. God the Father separated from the Holy Spirit would be as nonsensical as claiming you'd separated an ocean current from the water.

Nobody would calim the waves as a complete Ocean, nobody would claim currents as a complete ocean; they are only a part/fraction of what we call the ocean.

K

 

[Ken-1122]

Part and fraction are 2 different things, in this context.



Yes

In this context, what is the difference between "part" and "fraction"?

K

 

[Eternally Optimistic]

Question #1
Why the Trinity? Why Jesus and the Holy Ghost; why not just God? Are there some things God the father is not capable of which requires the assistance of the Holy Ghost, or Jesus?
Question #2
Did those who were closest to Jesus; Mary, his parents, his disciples, etc. pray to him and worship him as God? Or did they simply follow and learn from him as a leader.

Ken

Well without the Trinity Christianity has no leg to stand on as the Paschal Sacrifice would become fruitless. The second part of the first question seems to lack an understanding of the Athanasian definition of the Trinity. The best basic explanation I've seen is us, as humans, made in the image of God, who are physical, spiritual and intelligent, a thrice union so to speak, each of those are us, and yet there are not three "Usses" but one us. And no I am not saying we are God or gods, just that we are "animated icons" of the Trinity.

As to the second question, I don't think anyone can say definitively vis a vis a first hand account, that must be taken from Tradition.

 

[Eternally Optimistic]

Well without the Trinity Christianity has no leg to stand on as the Paschal Sacrifice would become fruitless. The second part of the first question seems to lack an understanding of the Athanasian definition of the Trinity. The best basic explanation I've seen is us, as humans, made in the image of God, who are physical, spiritual and intelligent, a thrice union so to speak, each of those are us, and yet there are not three "Usses" but one us. And no I am not saying we are God or gods, just that we are "animated icons" of the Trinity.


As to the second question, I don't think anyone can say definitively vis a vis a first hand account, that must be taken from Tradition.

 

[Eternally Optimistic]

mea culpa.

 

[razeontherock]

In this context, what is the difference between "part" and "fraction"?

K

There is a diagram, that depicts each member of the Trinity as G-d, but distinct from the other parts. And yet if each part is G-d, it can't very well be a fraction. So you see why i say that understanding the distinction of Persons is not necessary?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Question #1
Why the Trinity? Why Jesus and the Holy Ghost; why not just God? Are there some things God the father is not capable of which requires the assistance of the Holy Ghost, or Jesus?

Trinitarianism is the outgrowth of the early Christian Church coming to terms with the Jesus Event and all of its ramifications. That Jesus was in some sense identified with the God of Israel is found in the New Testament itself, what followed in the next few centuries was trying to make sense of this. Various competing theories existed at various times, some forms of Adoptionism posited that Jesus was adopted as God's Son and became Divine in His resurrection. Modalistic Monarchianism (also called Modalism or Sabellianism) stated that Jesus was the Father appearing in human likeness. Arianism said that Jesus was Divine, but was a lesser divinity, a second God created by the Father to function as an intermediary in the act of creation and redemption, a Demiurge.

Ultimately Trinitarianism was the result of early Christians concluding that these different theories just didn't work, they all failed at some level to describe the full impact of the Jesus Event. Following the specific Christological arguments in the early-mid 4th century between the Nicenes and Arians, the debate moved over to question of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit had long also been understood to be distinct from the Father and the Son in some sense, being at times identified with the Wisdom of God such as that Theophilus of Antioch spoke of the Trinity as the Father, His Word and His Wisdom.

It has nothing to do the Father needing help (or needing anything whatsoever); but has everything to do with making sense of the Event and experience of Christ and the Spirit in relation to the understanding of God in the ancient Christian community.

Question #2

Did those who were closest to Jesus; Mary, his parents, his disciples, etc. pray to him and worship him as God? Or did they simply follow and learn from him as a leader.

Ken

The New Testament would seem to indicate as much. In the Acts, St. Stephen prays to Jesus in such a way that mirrors Jesus' prayer to the Father on the cross, praying, "Hold this not against them" and "receive my spirit".

In the Gospel of St. John we have St. Thomas declare of the risen Christ, "My Lord and my God".

The Pauline corpus contains numerous declarative statements indicating a high Christological view, including declarations of Divinity and Deity.

I believe that the earliest Christian communities believed Jesus was in some sense Divine and in some way identified with Israel's God, though I don't think they spent as much time trying to figure that out like later generations of Christians did. I don't think there's a good reason to exclude Jesus' immediate family from this earliest group of believers, especially since Jesus' [great] nephews were leaders in the Church (of Jersualem) until Hadrian expelled all Jews from Jersualem following the Bar Kochba War.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[drich0150]

So is it your opinion that when God restricts himself to specific roles it is easier for us humans to understand him? is that what you are saying?

I believe we have been given the understanding of the trinity to help define the roles of God, but I did not say He is restricted to them.

Yes I think it would be easier for me to understand if God were one person doing everything; but that's just me.

In the history of the world you would be in the minority.

 

[Ken-1122]

Well without the Trinity Christianity has no leg to stand on as the Paschal Sacrifice would become fruitless. The second part of the first question seems to lack an understanding of the Athanasian definition of the Trinity. The best basic explanation I've seen is us, as humans, made in the image of God, who are physical, spiritual and intelligent, a thrice union so to speak, each of those are us, and yet there are not three "Usses" but one us. And no I am not saying we are God or gods, just that we are "animated icons" of the Trinity.

Actually there is much more to us than physical, spiritual, and intelligence; there are many more aspects that can be contributed to human being and each of those aspects of us is not a complete human being itself, it is only a part/fraction of us and when all put together equals a complete human being.

Ken