I'm tired of giving religionists a pass

[razeontherock]

Maybe, but I can demonstrate that they exist. As applied to objects, I can tell apart otherwise identical objects by their shade, in repeatable testing.

You cannot demonstrate that varying shades of blue exist, to a blind man. that you are unwilling to follow simple logic in decent conversation, what is the word for that?

I do not find this frustrating. Your circular reasoning is beginning to make me dizzy, though.

There is no circular reasoning in what you are responding to here. If you still think there is, expose it. Your cliche buzzword with no thought applied doesn't get you a free pass. The only thing being exposed in this thread is that those who attack Faith have no basis to speak on the subject. (Kinda like it'd be inappropriate for someone who doesn't understand science to take over a science classroom; ironic, eh?)

 

[razeontherock]

There are things like Cancer that respond very good to prayer. Other things are more difficult to pray for. If you notice the doctors have cured amputees. They sow arms on. Do you think you have the right to tell God HOW to do HIS business? What if God wants to use man to accomplish His purpose? Why do you question God when He does things His way? Satan wanted to be God. You want to dictate to God how He should do things. You want to be God. Sorry, the job is already taken. You worship at the alter of self.

It'll be interesting to see if the OP has the integrity to own up to this, or if he needs to try to wriggle his way out

 

[British Bulldog]

It'll be interesting to see if the OP has the integrity to own up to this, or if he needs to try to wriggle his way out

Experiments have been done to test prayer. The results, unsurprisingly, showed it had no effect. Anyone with even the most basic imagination can work out why.

 

[Jazer]

It'll be interesting to see if the OP has the integrity to own up to this, or if he needs to try to wriggle his way out

They usually just consider it an attack and they continue to accuse us in another thread on another subject. They just keep finding new ways to accuse Christianity.

Rev 10 12 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brothers is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

 

[Davian]

Maybe, but I can demonstrate that they exist. As applied to objects, I can tell apart otherwise identical objects by their shade, in repeatable testing.

I do not find this frustrating. Your circular reasoning is beginning to make me dizzy, though.

You cannot demonstrate that varying shades of blue exist, to a blind man. that you are unwilling to follow simple logic in decent conversation, what is the word for that?

For the term "varying shades of blue" I can. It would just be a matter of setting up the controls. I acknowledge that describing them would be... tricky.

There is no circular reasoning in what you are responding to here. If you still think there is, expose it. Your cliche buzzword with no thought applied doesn't get you a free pass. The only thing being exposed in this thread is that those who attack Faith have no basis to speak on the subject. (Kinda like it'd be inappropriate for someone who doesn't understand science to take over a science classroom; ironic, eh?)

I read "You cannot see G-d's realm (or Kingdom) w/o being born again" as "you cannot see this <insert undefined subject here> w/o first being <insert undefined state here>". What would you call using undefined terms to support other undefined terms that appear dependant on each other?

Perhaps if you were to define these terms, and phrase your statements for those that do not believe in the existence of deities, the concepts would be clearer.

 

[Loudmouth]

There are things like Cancer that respond very good to prayer.

Evidence please. From the studies I have read it was human contact that had the only effect seen in the study. When people did not know that people were praying for them there was no effect.

Other things are more difficult to pray for.

So much for the supposed omnipotence of God.

If you notice the doctors have cured amputees.

They have also cured cancers, and cancers naturally go into remission without anyone needing to pray.

Do you think you have the right to tell God HOW to do HIS business?

I have been asking creationists this for years. They keep telling me that God creates this way or that because they say so.

 

[Huram Abi]

please don't just make things up out of the blue and then assert them as truth. You just look silly.

That's what several of us have been telling him.

The first thing he said to me here was an assertion that bacteria ARE plants, so I'm not sure if you even want to begin talking about bacteria with him.

 

[Loudmouth]

This is unbelievably non-responsive, so I have no choice but to conclude you cannot fathom the subject material.

I see that you can not show that this spiritual realm exists anywhere but in our head.

 

[Loudmouth]

This is reasonable! Here's how it works:

prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that [there shall] not [be room] enough [to receive it].

Is a child dying a painful, slow death at the age of 5 a blessing?

 

[Loudmouth]

You cannot describe subtle hues of blue to a blind man.

Here is where your analogy rings false. Humans can only see a tiny sliver of all EM wavelengths. We are, in a very real sense, blind to most light. And yet, scientists have no problem describing this light that we can not see. How? Through testing and experimentation. They can show that this light does exist independent of any belief. They can evidence it.

So, what you need to do is show us the same type of evidence for God that scientists use to evidence radiowaves.

You cannot see G-d's realm (or Kingdom) w/o being born again.

IOW, you first have to believe in order to believe. Is that really surprising?

 

[Naraoia]

Even if that were so, it is convenient to Genesis that we utilize the science which conforms with the actual six layers of rocks.

There are more than six layers of rock in just the cliffs I can reach with a five-minute walk. Seriously, have you ever seen real rocks?

These six layers, though subdivided into many Stages, are separated from one another by cataclysmic Bio-Geological Events like mass extinctions and enormous meteoric hits.

For starters, the number of mass extinctions is also arbitrary. Not to mention that many cataclysms don't subdivide anything. Just to pick one, precisely which boundary in your scheme does the Manicouagan impact mark? (Hint: none. It's in the middle of the Late Triassic.)

I have never understood why people are so set against the metric system.

Most Europeans share your puzzlement

A thin strip of Iridium which came from the giant comet that hit earth and killed almost all Life on Earth in a mass extinction.

I think you got the wrong event there...

 

[Naraoia]

What a silly assertion. Many, many rocks show no traces of life at all. Also, there are Hadean banded iron formations that are thought to have been formed by photosynthric bacteria.

Wait, Hadean BIFs? Linky please?

Also... BIFs ~ oxygenic photosynthesis, right?

IN THE HADEAN?

I clearly need to talk more to geologists...

There are things like Cancer that respond very good to prayer. Other things are more difficult to pray for. If you notice the doctors have cured amputees. They sow arms on.

Doesn't work all that well. You know, lifelong immunosuppression, danger of rejection anyway, plus the lengthy process of learning to use the new arm. Not to mention that someone else's arm sewn onto your own can get your some strange looks.

Funnily enough, some other animals not so different from us have no trouble regrowing near-perfect copies of their lost limbs in a few months. Even humans can regrow small pieces of amputated fingertip when they are very young.

So why should we need the whole arm transplant thing at all?

 

[razeontherock]

Experiments have been done to test prayer. The results, unsurprisingly, showed it had no effect. Anyone with even the most basic imagination can work out why.

Oh please, i showed why those "experiments" are worthless. Control is an element of the scientific method, and you have none.

 

[razeontherock]

For the term "varying shades of blue" I can. It would just be a matter of setting up the controls. I acknowledge that describing them would be... tricky.

Description or no, the blind man would have no demonstration of varying shades of blue. The closest you would get, would be if he were to ... *shudder* ... believe what you tell him about some experience he does not have.

It is a wonderfully apt analogy. You can thank me later.

I read "You cannot see G-d's realm (or Kingdom) w/o being born again" as "you cannot see this <insert undefined subject here> w/o first being <insert undefined state here>". What would you call using undefined terms to support other undefined terms that appear dependant on each other?

Perhaps if you were to define these terms, and phrase your statements for those that do not believe in the existence of deities, the concepts would be clearer.

Done; see above. Again, you're welcome. And the Kingdom of G-d is in no way dependent on either of us, so your accusation of anything being circular is just plain silly.

 

[razeontherock]

I see that you can not show that this spiritual realm exists anywhere but in our head.

I don't think the Spiritual realm exists in our head at all, so you persist at striking out. Or do you have a mirror that shows you the inside of your head when you look at it? Eww, gross.

 

[razeontherock]

Is a child dying a painful, slow death at the age of 5 a blessing?

And in what way is this horrible question responsive to what you feigned a reply to?

 

[Naraoia]

Right, cupid, let's work with your system, and compare the days with what really happened in their alleged geological equivalents.

Day 1 ends with the creation of the earth. Fine - except the sun was already created at that point. And many, many megas***loads of stars.

Day 2 is the Hadean. You could fit this sock if you really yanked at it. Liquid water, atmosphere, dunno.

Day 3, though... yeah. We've been there. Bacteria are not plants, didn't originate on land, didn't bear seeds and fruits, weren't trees, and so on.

Day 4 gets worse. It's supposed to stand for the Proterozoic, but the sun and moon had originated long before that. Don't even get me started on the stars. (We've also been there...)

Day 5, supposedly the Palaeozoic. There were no birds in the Palaeozoic. The creatures of the sea - including animals - appeared well before the Palaeozoic. Literally nothing about this passage fits the actual events of the aeon.

Day 6, or the Mesozoic. Livestock??? Just which of our domesticated animals comes from the Mesozoic? And humans?

And then... nothing happens in the Cenozoic? Yeah, that's a somewhat inaccurate assessment of the last 65 million years.

 

[razeontherock]

Here is where your analogy rings false. Humans can only see a tiny sliver of all EM wavelengths. We are, in a very real sense, blind to most light. And yet, scientists have no problem describing this light that we can not see. How? Through testing and experimentation. They can show that this light does exist independent of any belief. They can evidence it.

This has no bearing to a blind man. Ultimately, he has to take your word for any of this before he can even begin to grasp the concept.

Same-same.

So, what you need to do is show us the same type of evidence for God that scientists use to evidence radiowaves.

No, you really don't. We're not talking about radio waves, light waves, nor anything that fits in a test tube. How you fail to perceive this escapes me.

IOW, you first have to believe in order to believe. Is that really surprising?

Have you said anything with any meaning yet? If I were a betting man, I would lay odds that what you refer to via the word "believe," has no bearing on Christianity.

 

[Naraoia]

No, you really don't. We're not talking about radio waves, light waves, nor anything that fits in a test tube. How you fail to perceive this escapes me.

You'd need a pretty big test tube to fit some radio waves

 

[Davian]

Description or no, the blind man would have no demonstration of varying shades of blue. The closest you would get, would be if he were to ... *shudder* ... believe what you tell him about some experience he does not have.

You said demonstrate the existence of shades of blue. Your goalposts are wobbling there.

There are also technological solutions, where camera-based information is converted to sound or tactile feedback. With enough granularity, a blind person could hear or 'feel' various colours and shades. Just because this is not available off the shelf, conceptually it appears to be possible.

And, as Metzinger notes in his video I posted, even sighted people don't 'see' with their eyes.

It is a wonderfully apt analogy. You can thank me later.

How juvenile.

Done; see above.

Still no definitions.

Again, you're welcome.

Are we done here?

And the Kingdom of G-d is in no way dependent on either of us, so your accusation of anything being circular is just plain silly.

I did ask: what would you call using undefined terms to support other undefined terms that appear dependant on each other?