Another poor response to ERV evidence for common ancestry by a creationist.

[dad]

But it's not so much an acknowledgement here as it is the deification of the men involved. Physical medicine can be bypassed (and often is), but you can never bypass the foundational and ruling transcendent force which mediates internal compliance and procedural potency.

If I rose from the dead or healed all of the Boston area, and people saw and wrote about that, in no way would that mean they deified anything, just recorded it.

As it was in the case of the "scientifically advanced" walking stick and sign language, the endeavors towards the digital age would continue regardless of walkers getting lighter and more convenient or sign language getting more and more scientifically precise.

Objection: speculation.

You see a man with an advanced hearing aid, a highly sophisticated oxygen tank, state of the art casts, modern iv drips and a "scientifically advanced" wheel chair , and you call him "sick" or "disabled." But when you see a man needing a cell phone, a Hadron collider, high powered telescopes, and wineries to do basic tasks, somehow he's the best thing to happen since the primordial soup.

Too bad there is no connection to any imaginary soup. Your soup just doesn't get the credit for all that, despite the befuddled and poorly arranged English composition there.

Should a man come and explore the mysteries of the universe without the precious colliders,

Explore all you like, the thing is their belief based musings in space also lead to an imaginary soup. Learn the difference between imagination and exploration before making a declaration.


Happy spamming.

 

[Naraoia]

I beg to differ. Mark's poetry is infinitely better than his science.

Good point!

 

[Doveaman]

You mean "Deaf"

Definitely!

 

[mzungu]

Definitely!

Sorry but if God did not wish for these people to be BORN deaf then he would not have allowed it thus we can conclude that it was not science's fault but was the will of God. Thankfully science entered the stage and helped these people hear!

Science works and gives results while religion at best gives hope to the hopeless!

 

[Loudmouth]

Those siren songs of homology arguments still luring the faithless to the rocks of fallacy and fabrication.

So you are saying that if humans and chimps share a common ancestor that they should NOT have any homologous sequences between them?

So you are saying that you and your siblings do not share any DNA because common ancestry does not produce homologous DNA?

 

[Loudmouth]

But it's not so much an acknowledgement here as it is the deification of the men involved. Physical medicine can be bypassed (and often is), but you can never bypass the foundational and ruling transcendent force which mediates internal compliance and procedural potency.

As it was in the case of the "scientifically advanced" walking stick and sign language, the endeavors towards the digital age would continue regardless of walkers getting lighter and more convenient or sign language getting more and more scientifically precise.

You see a man with an advanced hearing aid, a highly sophisticated oxygen tank, state of the art casts, modern iv drips and a "scientifically advanced" wheel chair , and you call him "sick" or "disabled." But when you see a man needing a cell phone, a Hadron collider, high powered telescopes, and wineries to do basic tasks, somehow he's the best thing to happen since the primordial soup.

Should a man come and explore the mysteries of the universe without the precious colliders, or make wine without a winery, he finds himself ducking wheelchairs and dodging verbose oxygen tanks.

We, as a people, are supposed to become more and more dependent on the wheelchair and the "scientific establishment" will not hesitate in curtailing complaints by adding rocket boosters and other amenities. The muscles in your legs are beginning to atrophy from disuse, yes, but the boosters, man. They're even working on vertical take-off and landing tomorrow. [video]

It's not about acknowledging, accepting and utilizing physical science as the subservient place holder that it is (which of course is not a problem) but it's more about an apotheosis. However, if they're interested in learning how to walk again...

So says the guy using the internet. Do you realize how silly it is to read a rant against technology on the internet? At least Ted Kaczynski was consistent. He used a typewriter.

 

[Loudmouth]

I accept your facts, but I reject your theory and substitute it for my own theory that is also based on those same facts:

We have ERVs, and they are evidence of a recreated hominid design.

How are ERV's evidence that man was created from a resurrected hominid design?

 

[Loudmouth]

Not in any way is that true. You merely impose the present transfer methods and nature of life into the unknown, to get godless conclusions that cannot be supported.

The past is not the unknown. ERV's are evidence of common ancestry. Therefore, your claims are falsified.

God planted the garden of Eden one week. Later that week man and best ate stuff that grew. In fact we see that there were trees there too. Noah sent out a bird...no trees. A week later again the bird was sent...a fresh leaf from a tree. This is solid support for fast plant growth in the different state past.

Stories are not evidence. Are Aesop's Fables evidence that hares and turtles can talk?

We know that you simply apply same state past faith willy nilly across the evidence board.

No faith needed. We can observe that the past was the same as the present through telescopes.

You have supplied ZERO evidence that retroviruses acted differently in the past, therefore your claims are without merit.

The impositions man does are also present state earth based, and are 'correlated' and interpreted accordingly.

If the physical laws were different in the past they would show up in our observations of distant stars. Instead, we directly observe the same results in stars that we get in our laboratories here on Earth.

Do you really expect us to believe that all the observable universe is in our eath space, and golds only 3 D objects and is governed only by our present state earth zone laws?

I expect you to look at the evidence which you refuse to do. I am not asking for belief one way or the other. I am asking for arguments based on observable evidence. You refuse to do it. Instead, you make arguments that run counter to all of the evidence we do have. Go figure. Keep tilting at windmills, we will keep laughing.

 

[dad]

The past is not the unknown. ERV's are evidence of common ancestry. Therefore, your claims are falsified.

Not in any way is that remotely close to being true. Only IF this present state and it's processes and transfer methods for viri and etc were the same and in place would you have a point. We do not know it was. So you have no point.

Stories are not evidence. Are Aesop's Fables evidence that hares and turtles can talk?

Science was not here so either we take the observations recorded by reliable sources or you have nothing. Who cares about after the fact fables you invent? They are absurd, and insulting to the intelligence.

No faith needed. We can observe that the past was the same as the present through telescopes.

Absurd. We can't even see space, just what's in it! How would you know it is the same, and all the forces and laws too? You FIRST assume and believe and THEN you model accordingly. Godless paper tiger models.

You have supplied ZERO evidence that retroviruses acted differently in the past, therefore your claims are without merit.

Heck, you have supplied ZERO evidence that retroviruses acted the same or even existed as modern viri, in the past, therefore your claims are without merit.

My ideas have basis in observational records, and are not made up as your weird claims.

If the physical laws were different in the past they would show up in our observations of distant stars. Instead, we directly observe the same results in stars that we get in our laboratories here on Earth.

Nope! That is a bogus claim. Who says OUR physical laws even exist there or ever did? Proof? You are reading way way way too much into earth based peeks at the unknown far far universe.

I expect you to look at the evidence which you refuse to do.

Like..?

I am not asking for belief one way or the other. I am asking for arguments based on observable evidence.

Show us any observable evidence of a same state past and I will be all over it like a bear on honey.

Now cut the vague blather, and get down to some nitty gritty.

 

[mzungu]

So says the guy using the internet. Do you realize how silly it is to read a rant against technology on the internet? At least Ted Kaczynski was consistent. He used a typewriter.

Typewriters are not technology

 

[mzungu]

Nope! That is a bogus claim. Who says OUR physical laws even exist there or ever did? Proof? You are reading way way way too much into earth based peeks at the unknown far far universe.

Like..?

Show us any observable evidence of a same state past and I will be all over it like a bear on honey.

Now cut the vague blather, and get down to some nitty gritty.

Why don't you show us your God first? Then we can debate otherwise I shall be forced to call upon the almighty FSM to put things in order!

May his pastaness bless us with infinite plates of spaghetti bolognese with a rich topping of parmezan cheese

 

[dad]

Why don't you show us your God first? Then we can debate otherwise I shall be forced to call upon the almighty FSM to put things in order!

May his pastaness bless us with infinite plates of spaghetti bolognese with a rich topping of parmezan cheese

' 'First' --before....what? Before you grow a science claim that has proof or evidence? You show evidence that you have jurisdiction in the unknown past first. Otherwise you are not offering science here.

 

[mzungu]

Before....what? Before you grow a science claim that has proof or evidence?

Before we can discuss your claims you have to show us evidence of your God first otherwise whatever you say is hear say and nothing more!

 

[Doveaman]

How are ERV's evidence that man was created from a resurrected hominid design?

We begin with the facts:

Man was created from "dust".

Man has ERV similar to ape.

ERV is passed on from one generation to the next.

We then form the theories:

1) Man and ape evolved from common ape ancestor (evolution).

2) Man was created from an extinct ape DNA that has been tweaked to give us our human appearance (recreation/resurrection).

Number 2 is consistent with all the facts, therefore I go with number 2.

Number 1 is not consistent with all the facts, therefore number 1 can take a hike.


I am also open to any other theory that is consistent with all the facts.

 

[Jazer]

show us evidence of your God

Matthew is the first book of the New Testament. The fifth chapter of Matthew is the greatest sermon that was ever preached. Everyone should read at least that much of the Bible. There you will see that God: "for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust." We all know that you need Sun and rain to grow food. So even you reject God He is patient to wait for you to repent and return to Him. He still provides you with Sun and Rain to grow your food and produce your crops.

5:44 NKJV) "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,

(Mat 5:45 NKJV) "that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

 

[mzungu]

Matthew is the first book of the New Testament. The fifth chapter of Matthew is the greatest sermon that was ever preached. Everyone should read at least that much of the Bible. There you will see that God: "for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust." We all know that you need Sun and rain to grow food. So even you reject God He is patient to wait for you to repent and return to Him. He still provides you with Sun and Rain to grow your food and produce your crops.

5:44 NKJV) "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,

(Mat 5:45 NKJV) "that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

I have this nagging suspicion that you do not know what the word "Evidence" means!

 

[Loudmouth]

We begin with the facts:

Man was created from "dust".

That is not a fact. That is a religious belief.

Man has ERV similar to ape.

ERV is passed on from one generation to the next.

More to the point, ERV's are found in the same position in both man and apes. Also, the pattern of LTR divergence matches the concensus phylogeny.

We then form the theories:

1) Man and ape evolved from common ape ancestor (evolution).

2) Man was created from an extinct ape DNA that has been tweaked to give us our human appearance (recreation/resurrection).

Number 2 is consistent with all the facts, therefore I go with number 2.

How is number 1 not consistent with the facts? Are you saying that if man and apes share a common ancestor that we should NOT find orthologous ERV's shared by man and apes? Also, if number 1 explains the data through natural mechanisms why even entertain number 2? Do you propose a supernatural origin for rain even though the natural mechanism is capable of producing what we observe? Also, what test can we run to differentiate between the two theories?

I am also open to any other theory that is consistent with all the facts.

Theories need to be testable. You have not shown how theory 2 is testable.

 

[Loudmouth]

Not in any way is that remotely close to being true. Only IF this present state and it's processes and transfer methods for viri and etc were the same and in place would you have a point.

They had to be, otherwise life could not exist in the past. The mechanisms that are involved in retroviral replication are the same ones that are involved in cellular replication and reproduction. Since there was life in the past the retroviruses worked the same in the past.

Also, we have mountains of observations of the past, and the laws were the same. You lose.

Show us any observable evidence of a same state past and I will be all over it like a bear on honey.

Pick any observation of a distant star.

 

[Doveaman]

That is not a fact. That is a religious belief.

We believe it because we consider it a fact. Otherwise what’s the point in believing it.

More to the point, ERV's are found in the same position in both man and apes. Also, the pattern of LTR divergence matches the concensus phylogeny.

Evidence of common design.

How is number 1 not consistent with the facts?

“The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground...From one man He made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth.” (Gen 2:7, Acts 17:26).

Are you saying that if man and apes share a common ancestor that we should NOT find orthologous ERV's shared by man and apes?

Nope.

Also, if number 1 explains the data through natural mechanisms why even entertain number 2?

Because number 1 does not explain all the data.

Do you propose a supernatural origin for rain even though the natural mechanism is capable of producing what we observe?

If there are no rain clouds to be observed in the sky, yes.

We observe how ERV transfer from one generation to the next, but we did not observe its origin.

Also, what test can we run to differentiate between the two theories?

We can test them through God’s word to see if they are consistent with it.

Theories need to be testable. You have not shown how theory 2 is testable.

Yes, I did. You just don’t like it.

 

[Doveaman]

Show us any observable evidence of a same state past and I will be all over it like a bear on honey.

Pick any observation of a distant star.

Stars are not in the past; they are in the distant.

Is the sun in the past?