What’s the worst that can happen?

[Ken-1122]

hi Ken, I have not read through all this, but I was once an atheist. But for what ever reason when I was 38 I was watching the history channel about hell...for some reason I thought what if I am wrong and this heaven and hell stuff is true.

I started searching, reading, about all religions and new age stuff....but it was my children's piano teachers that showed me the way...they had such peace, such amazing faith, I said to them 'I want what you have'.

I had read the bible many times, and like you it was no different than any other religious book....but this time I read it and I was believing it, and now I know it was the Holy Spirit opening my mind and heart to this spiritual book, it was alive, it was feeding my soul, I could not read enough.

When you really want the truth, and just not facts, God will show you. This is spiritual, not scientific.

Seems you started in the opposite place as I and ended up in the opposite place as I.
Thanks for the testamonial

Ken

 

[StormHawk]

What’s the worst that can happen if God were to address the entire world at once, in an audible voice; in a language that each of us can understand to clear up all the misunderstandings we humans have of him?
Why doesn’t he do it?

Ken

Ken, you are behnd the times.
Why not just read Acts 2, where His church began, *put yourself there*.
You will hear a clear message of how to find God. I did 25 years ago.

(Confusion & mis-understanding has resulted because people won't just do this!)

 

[Ken-1122]

Ken, you are behnd the times.
Why not just read Acts 2, where His church began, *put yourself there*.
You will hear a clear message of how to find God. I did 25 years ago.

(Confusion & mis-understanding has resulted because people won't just do this!)

I'm not talking about 2000 years ago or 2000 years from now; anybody can make up such a claim; I'm talking about TODAY! Why doesn't he do it NOW?

Ken

 

[oi_antz]

I believe if what the bible says about Jesus were true, he would have written his messages down and they would be around today for all to see. The way the bible is written today doesn't make sense to me.

Ken

But you are putting constraints on God again!

 

[Ken-1122]

But you are putting constraints on God again!

I don't see it as putting constraints, I see it as an attempt to understand God the only way I know how. Now if you see my way as insufficient, then I guess you will understand if I am skeptical of such claims

Ken

 

[razeontherock]

So you say I should start dealing with what Jesus actually said? And how do YOU know what Jesus actually said? How does anybody know?
The problem with Jesus is he never wrote anything down, so nobody really knows WHAT he said.

That's utter silliness. All you're doing is imposing our society's norms upon another, far removed in every possible way.

The only thing we have about him is what other flawed and imperfect men with possible agendas had to say about him; and of course that varies from person to person often contradicting each other.

No, there is no contradiction. Matthew reveals Jesus as a King, Mark as a suffering servant, Luke as the Son of Man, and John as the Son of God. 4 different pictures.

If you believe the men who wrote the books that eventually became the bible,

Again the emphasis on writing?!? You're talking about a society in which anything written was immediately suspect, as Gov't forged everything to make themselves look good. What was reliable was face to face testimony of an eye witnesses you knew and respected.

What eventually got written as the 4 Gospels was read aloud daily in the Temple for 30 years first! (IOW, why skip over what matters most?)

according to these men Jesus claimed to be the son of God. If you believe the men who wrote the books that eventually became the Holy Koran, or even some of the Gnostic gospels, according to these men Jesus never even made such claims! ... there is no means of establishing the truth!

Utterly false. You can look at Islamic claims and easily debunk their stance on this issue, just with sheer logic, based on things they accept as fact.

 

[razeontherock]

The way the bible is written today doesn't make sense to me.

This is a complete thought. Are you willing to put in the effort to understand it?

 

[Ken-1122]

This is a complete thought. Are you willing to put in the effort to understand it?

I already have

K

 

[razeontherock]

[Sound of screeching brakes]

Um, no. You have put in some effort, certainly. We have all been able to point out rather basic areas where you never arrived at understanding ... shouldn't that tell you something?

 

[Ken-1122]

That's utter silliness. All you're doing is imposing our society's norms upon another, far removed in every possible way.



No, there is no contradiction. Matthew reveals Jesus as a King, Mark as a suffering servant, Luke as the Son of Man, and John as the Son of God. 4 different pictures.



Again the emphasis on writing?!? You're talking about a society in which anything written was immediately suspect, as Gov't forged everything to make themselves look good. What was reliable was face to face testimony of an eye witnesses you knew and respected.

What eventually got written as the 4 Gospels was read aloud daily in the Temple for 30 years first! (IOW, why skip over what matters most?)

My point is, I have no reason to believe your claims of Jesus over someone elses because none of you guys provide any proof. Now if you have some proof that there is any truth to the bible claims of Jesus than I would be more than happy to see it.

Utterly false. You can look at Islamic claims and easily debunk their stance on this issue, just with sheer logic, based on things they accept as fact.

I can do the same thing with Christian claims

K

 

[razeontherock]

My point is, I have no reason to believe your claims of Jesus over someone elses because none of you guys provide any proof. Now if you have some proof that there is any truth to the bible claims of Jesus than I would be more than happy to see it.

Sorry, but you gotta get your own proof, from God, yourself. That I can't do for you, and neither can anyone else. It would completely defeat the purpose!

I can do the same thing with Christian claims
K

You can tell yourself that, but you've demonstrated a lack of that sort of acumen. Note that I'm not saying you lack to demonstrate the ability to do so, but that you demonstrate the lack. Has everything to do with the effort i asked if you were willing to make, above.

 

[oi_antz]

I don't see it as putting constraints, I see it as an attempt to understand God the only way I know how. Now if you see my way as insufficient, then I guess you will understand if I am skeptical of such claims

Ken

No I don't see it as insufficient, I'm not sure how "sufficiency" even fits. We have a few facts to consider:

1) There was this man called Jesus
2) We have a record of this man called Jesus, written by the men who knew Him
3) In the records we have of Jesus, He claims to be the messiah

From this information, you can only have three beliefs:

1) The men who knew Jesus told the truth as they thought was best
2) The men who knew Jesus did not tell the truth about Jesus
3) The records we have of Jesus are not written by men who knew Jesus

Which one do you believe? (or is there another one I have overlooked?)

 

[woodpecker]

the book of Acts is the writings the Holy Spirit used to open my mind and heart to the truth of scripture.

Ken it breaks my heart, but you are either not open to the truth of the gospel, meaning you have been shown, and have denied God, which is very scary for Hebrew 6 says this:

4For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come— 6and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.
7When the ground soaks up the falling rain and bears a good crop for the farmer, it has God’s blessing. 8But if a field bears thorns and thistles, it is useless. The farmer will soon condemn that field and burn it.
----------

or the Holy Spirit has not shown you the truth, because you really do not want it.

THIS IS SUPERNATURAL, with out the Holy Spirit enlightening you, all of this is foolishness to the unbeliever.

If you really want your eyes opened, get on your knees and ask God to help you read the bible.

 

[StormHawk]

I'm not talking about 2000 years ago or 2000 years from now; anybody can make up such a claim; I'm talking about TODAY! Why doesn't he do it NOW?

Ken

He does and he is!
I'm with an international fellowship where all members have received what all the disciples received, the miracles, unity and joy follows!

In the first words of Jesus . . . . "come and see"

 

[Ken-1122]

Sorry, but you gotta get your own proof, from God, yourself. That I can't do for you, and neither can anyone else. It would completely defeat the purpose!

Thank-you! I wish more people saw things that way!

Ken

 

[razeontherock]

Have you looked at stormhawk's link? Surrounding yourself with people who "see things that way," and have also experienced G-d first-hand, is the way ALL of us have gotten to know Him.

 

[Ken-1122]

No I don't see it as insufficient, I'm not sure how "sufficiency" even fits. We have a few facts to consider:

1) There was this man called Jesus
2) We have a record of this man called Jesus, written by the men who knew Him
3) In the records we have of Jesus, He claims to be the messiah

My issue with #2 is; The people who wrote of Jesus didn’t know him personally. The fact that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were written in Greek, yet Jesus or his disciples spoke Aramaic should have been a hint.
My issue with #3 is; according to the CHRISTIAN records he made such claims. Christianity isn’t the only religion that recognize Jesus you know!

From this information, you can only have three beliefs:

1) The men who knew Jesus told the truth as they thought was best
2) The men who knew Jesus did not tell the truth about Jesus
3) The records we have of Jesus are not written by men who knew Jesus

Which one do you believe? (or is there another one I have overlooked?)

I would have to go with #3. The men who wrote of Jesus didn’t know him personally; they were just writing down what they heard someone else say. Didn’t you play the “telephone game” when you were a kid? How accurate was that? Why would you assume the bible is any more accurate?


Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

the book of Acts is the writings the Holy Spirit used to open my mind and heart to the truth of scripture.

Ken it breaks my heart, but you are either not open to the truth of the gospel, meaning you have been shown, and have denied God, which is very scary for Hebrew 6 says this:

4For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come— 6and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.
7When the ground soaks up the falling rain and bears a good crop for the farmer, it has God’s blessing. 8But if a field bears thorns and thistles, it is useless. The farmer will soon condemn that field and burn it.
----------

or the Holy Spirit has not shown you the truth, because you really do not want it.

THIS IS SUPERNATURAL, with out the Holy Spirit enlightening you, all of this is foolishness to the unbeliever.

If you really want your eyes opened, get on your knees and ask God to help you read the bible.

I’m sorry if I’ve caused you grief; that was not my intention. The fact is when I spent all those years seeking God; I didn’t have the same experience you claim to have had.
It was not a result of me doing something wrong, so please don’t accuse me of doing something I know I didn’t do, and please don’t accuse me of not doing something I know I did do. I’ve received so much grief from some of the other posters on this forum because they are so bent on trying to convert me and it is starting to get a little offensive.
I’m not saying you are doing that, I’m just saying please don’t go down that road because I’ve been down it too many times.
Thanks for listening to my rant

Peace
Ken

 

[docpotter]

So Ken lets say for arguments sake God exists 100 % , and is all knowing , all powerful etc etc . When the bible was being translated / written , do you not think it is entirely possible He could have made sure it got done exactly right ? Or do you think He was pacing nervously in heaven wringing his hands saying " oh I really hope they get it right " ?

And what about ALL the foretold prophesies of Christ in the OT, 100s of years before he came to earth, that he answered to the letter ? If that was so simple to do why hasn't anyone else been the chosen one of God? Why has no other prophet / messiah came back from the dead, or even claimed to be able to forgive sins ?

 

[razeontherock]

Every point refuted:

My issue with #2 is; The people who wrote of Jesus didn’t know him personally. The fact that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were written in Greek, yet Jesus or his disciples spoke Aramaic should have been a hint.

How do you know what language they were written in originally? Are you unaware of the growing evidence that Jesus speak at least some Greek?

My issue with #3 is; according to the CHRISTIAN records he made such claims. Christianity isn’t the only religion that recognize Jesus you know!

Islam recognizes the passages where the claims are made, they just don't understand the text. They want things spelled out like the Koran does, and refuse to see the gentleness Jesus employed.

I would have to go with #3. The men who wrote of Jesus didn’t know him personally; they were just writing down what they heard someone else say. Didn’t you play the “telephone game” when you were a kid? How accurate was that? Why would you assume the bible is any more accurate?


Ken

From event to first manuscript, by all accounts the Bible is FAR closer than any other work of antiquity! And by all scholarly methods of verification, the Bible makes the Trojan wars look like Mother Goose by comparison. Do you doubt the Trojan wars occurred, or are they taught in schools as fact?