Did the Church hand down Scripture to us?

[ivebeenshown]

Please vote in the poll.

For discussion,

Scripture says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth.
Scripture is a definitive/authoritative source of information regarding Christian faith and morals.

If you believe the Church handed Scripture down to us, please answer: do you find it necessary to place your trust only in that which is infallible for matters of faith and morals? How can we trust that the Scriptures we have are infallible in such a manner unless the Church that gave them to us is infallible in such a manner?

 

[sunlover1]

Please vote in the poll.

For discussion,

Scripture says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

It does say that.
Now what, iyo, is "the Church"?

 

[CryptoLutheran]

The poll feels a little too one dimensional. I agree that the Church has handed down Scripture to us, but I don't see this as a distinctively Roman Catholic belief.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jpark]

When the church was hindering mankind's growth, God was pleased. It was simple back then. God created the world. But when this so called church starts compromising, how can it be a church of God?

 

[razeontherock]

The poll is flawed. You assert that the Church not handing down Scripture to us is somehow "non-Catholic." Who could possibly vote in such a poll other than a RC?

But Suncritter's question stands: what is "the Church?" It was THE APOSTLES who brought what we consider NT Scripture to us, unhindered by anyone else within "the Church." It was NOT the modern invention that is today's RC organization that brought us the NT, nor the OT, nor the Apocrypha, nor the ECF's. (I'll let you claim the pseudoapocrypha though

 

[billybtennessee]

I voted no. All scripture was given by the inspiration of God. He promised to be with His people, the church, but to say that the church is 'infallible', and honestly look at history, is a ridiculous claim. Much false teachings and practices were brought in, some remain now. The jews thought much the same, many still do likely.

Jesus Christ is the head. The church is His body. His church is made up of every believer abiding in Him. We are all 'unprofitable servants'. Grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ. He is the Word. God promised that His word will endure forever. He has used many to do that. Such as John Wycliffe, whose bones were exhumed and burned, Erasmus, William Tyndale, who was burned at the stake, scholars who worked on the Geneva Bible. These were all men used of God, but it is God who has preserved scripture, regardless. I agree with others, the poll leaves out much.

 

[wayseer]

Please vote in the poll.

For discussion,

Scripture says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

Scripture says that? Where?

Scripture is a definitive/authoritative source of information regarding Christian faith and morals.

It is? What happened to Tradition?

If you believe the Church handed Scripture down to us, please answer: do you find it necessary to place your trust only in that which is infallible for matters of faith and morals? How can we trust that the Scriptures we have are infallible in such a manner unless the Church that gave them to us is infallible in such a manner?

Actually the Church did not 'give' us the scriptures. The Church coveted the scriptures for itself for centuries. Wycliffe was relentless persecuted by the Church for daring to 'give' us the scriptures.

 

[cobweb]

The poll is poorly designed, but Scripture does say that..

1 Timothy 3:15

 

[Stryder06]

I'm in the "Poor poll design" group. Those questions need a do over

 

[Freedom63]

Textual analysis has cast significant doubt on Paul's authorship of these letters to Timothy. I find much contradiction with scripture in the claim that the church is the "pillar and the foundation of truth". If Paul did not write Timothy (hotly debated I know) then it seems likely to me that the early church built in a little holy support for it's own authority. Not to mention took an opportunity to re-introduce male superiority which Christ had taken away.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Douay-Rheims) 1 Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
KJV) 1 Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
Young) 1 Timothy 3:15 and if I delay, that thou mayest know how it behoveth [thee] to conduct thyself in the house of God, which is an assembly of the living God--a pillar and foundation of the truth,

Who do a few bible versions use "ground" instead of "foundation"?

The poll is poorly designed, but Scripture does say that..

1 Timothy 3:15

Tis true.
My bro Paul also was laying a foundation, based on the Rock of grace and truth, Jesus the Christ

1 Corin 3:10 According to the grace of God being given to me as a wise Chief-artificer a foundation I lay, another yet is building upon it.
Each one yet let be heeding! how he is building upon it.

Matt 16:18 "And I yet to thee am saying that thou art petroV <4074> and upon this, the rock, I shall be building of Me the assembly
and gates of Hades not shall be prevailingof her

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Textual analysis has cast significant doubt on Paul's authorship of these letters to Timothy. I find much contradiction with scripture in the claim that the church is the "pillar and the foundation of truth". If Paul did not write Timothy (hotly debated I know) then it seems likely to me that the early church built in a little holy support for it's own authority. Not to mention took an opportunity to re-introduce male superiority which Christ had taken away.

I haven't heard that.
So was someone else using Paul's name?

http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

Young) 1 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to a command of God our Saviour, and of the Lord Jesus Christ our hope,

Young) 2 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, through the will of God, according to a promise of life that [is] in Christ Jesus,

 

[DamianWarS]

Who do a few bible versions use "ground" instead of "foundation"?Tis true.
My bro Paul also was laying a foundation, based on the Rock of grace and truth, Jesus the Christ

the NASB says "support". The greek word is hedraioma which only appears in this passage in the NT. It seems to be rooted in the word "hedraios" which means 1) sitting, sedentary 2) firm, immovable, steadfast. Interestingly enough the first Epistle to Timothy does use another word that is more properly translated into foundation and this is found in 1Ti 6:19 and the Greek word is themelios. The same word is used in the parable of the the wise man who builds his house on rock.

Matt 16:18 "And I yet to thee am saying that thou art petroV <4074> and upon this, the rock, I shall be building of Me the assembly and gates of Hades not shall be prevailingof her

What translation of the Bible is this? I appreciate the word ekklesia being translated as assembly.

 

[Freedom63]

I haven't heard that.
So was someone else using Paul's name?

Most likely yes. Unfortunately it was not uncommon for early church writers to write in the name of an apostle to either show respect for the Apostle or, in a less noble gesture, to attempt to lend added credibility to their own writings.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Most likely yes. Unfortunately it was not uncommon for early church writers to write in the name of an apostle to either show respect for the Apostle or, in a less noble gesture, to attempt to lend added credibility to their own writings.

That is just what we need, more doubt and less credibility concerning Paul
Here is what I came up with on google search concerning Paul's credibility on CF
[this is one reason I have that wanted poster of Paul on my profile board in case any are wondering]

site:christianforums.com paul false apostle christian forums - Google Search

 

[ivebeenshown]

To everyone complaining about 'Catholic' being in the poll -- you do realize that the Nicene Creed affirms the Catholic Church, right? Regardless of what you believe 'Catholic' means or how it should be capitalized. You're agreeing to that by posting here.

Textual analysis has cast significant doubt on Paul's authorship of these letters to Timothy. I find much contradiction with scripture in the claim that the church is the "pillar and the foundation of truth". If Paul did not write Timothy (hotly debated I know) then it seems likely to me that the early church built in a little holy support for it's own authority. Not to mention took an opportunity to re-introduce male superiority which Christ had taken away.

So you do not accept even the 66-book Protestant canon as the fully inspired and infallible word of God?

 

[Freedom63]

To everyone complaining about 'Catholic' being in the poll -- you do realize that the Nicene Creed affirms the Catholic Church, right? Regardless of what you believe 'Catholic' means or how it should be capitalized. You're agreeing to that by posting here.

So you do not accept even the 66-book Protestant canon as the fully inspired and infallible word of God?

Not in the same sense you do no.

Let me rephrase that..."fully inspired" and "infallible" are terms I cannot totally embrace without qualifying them.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

To everyone complaining about 'Catholic' being in the poll -- you do realize that the Nicene Creed affirms the Catholic Church, right? Regardless of what you believe 'Catholic' means or how it should be capitalized. You're agreeing to that by posting here.

So you do not accept even the 66-book Protestant canon as the fully inspired and infallible word of God?

Not in the same sense you do no.

Let me rephrase that..."fully inspired" and "infallible" are terms I cannot totally embrace without qualifying them.

In case anyone wants to view the CF Statement of Faith, here is a link to it

http://www.christianforums.com/t7368885-21/
New Statement of Faith at Christian Forums

Christian Forums has changed our Statement of Faith to the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed.

In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2: 5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16: 15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)

*The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Not in the same sense you do no.

Let me rephrase that..."fully inspired" and "infallible" are terms I cannot totally embrace without qualifying them.

Well, are you of the Sola Scriptura camp?

 

[Freedom63]

Well, are you of the Sola Scriptura camp?

This term is too divisive for me to embrace. "Camps" tend to be generalizations of a belief structure that is difficult to apply with exactness. The debate between scripture alone verses scripture AND tradition is not one I enter into because I do not see a stark either/or as the only valid choices.