Is your belief conditional?

[razeontherock]

It's very clear that your belief is conditional that you get into heaven. This means the purpose of your belief is no more than an insurance policy for you in the event that there is a heaven. The problem with this is if God is all-knowing, then he knows you only believe so you can ensure you go to heaven. Do you think he's going to want people like that going to heaven? Ask a seasoned Christian and I'm sure the answer you'll get is no.

You do realize your purpose in this post is to accuse the brethren, and in so doing you are serving satan?

 

[razeontherock]

St. Paul was pretty clear:

If there is no resurrection of the dead (i.e. no eternal life) then Christ is not risen. If Christ is not risen then the entirety of the Christian faith is vain and pointless--the entire Christian message is empty and our religion is worthless.

In other words, if there is no resurrection of the dead then there is no Christianity. In which case I would be in the market for another belief system/philosophy/way of life (et al).

As far as heaven is concerned, I don't believe in a place called "heaven" anyway. Rather "heaven" euphemistically refers to God's otherly and ineffable presence. Thus the existence of a place called "heaven" is irrelevant for my faith.

-CryptoLutheran

FTW!

 

[razeontherock]

Leslie - we need to back peddle. Here are the questions again:

If it were proven that there is no eternal life and no heaven:
1) would you still believe that Jesus died for the sins of others?
2) would you still believe that there is a fully omniscient & omnipotent God?
3) would you still maintain your personal relationship with God?
4) Would you still continue to read the Bible and/or go to church?

Both LOCO and CryptoLutheran were able to answer the question just fine. So I know you can too.

Intentional or not, pondering such things puts out the Light of the world. Why do you choose to be His enemy like that? [Julian of York verbally demonstrated how to combat such an attack. It will be interesting to see if Cieza has the integrity to handle such an answer]

 

[Cieza]

Intentional or not, pondering such things puts out the Light of the world. Why do you choose to be His enemy like that? [Julian of York verbally demonstrated how to combat such an attack. It will be interesting to see if Cieza has the integrity to handle such an answer]

I am not an enemy of God. I am an ally of what is real. I have never observed anything which would give me any sense that an omniscient & omnipotent being such as God exists.

If you don't believe unicorns exist, does that make you an enemy of unicorns?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I am not an enemy of God. I am an ally of what is real. I have never observed anything which would give me any sense that an omniscient & omnipotent being such as God exists.

Hey lots of people have never experienced God. I mean my mother used to talk about healing but I never saw any one healed. That is until many years latter I actually had the privelage of praying for a woman and seeing he instantly healed in Jesus name. Now days God has just done so many things that it is impossible for me to not know he is real. He would have to get me to forget every thing he had ever done, but I know he is not going to do that, he is not a monster. If you want to know what he has done read my testimony pages at Know God Personally

 

[Cieza]

Hey lots of people have never experienced God. I mean my mother used to talk about healing but I never saw any one healed. That is until many years latter I actually had the privelage of praying for a woman and seeing he instantly healed in Jesus name. Now days God has just done so many things that it is impossible for me to not know he is real. He would have to get me to forget every thing he had ever done, but I know he is not going to do that, he is not a monster. If you want to know what he has done read my testimony pages at Know God Personally

How can you know for sure the healing of the woman wasn't just a natural process and had nothing to do with Jesus?

If you recorded God speaking audibly to you and played it back for me to listen to, what would I hear?

 

[ziggy29]

Not meaning to be patronizing or demeaning here, but really, what's the point of this question? If something could be scientifically proven or disproven, it wouldn't be faith, would it?

I fail to see how anyone of "faith" could even ponder whether or not these things were scientifically provable or disprovable. I believe God allows science to reveal to us the truths He allows to know, and the unknown and unknowable is the role of faith. And I believe that not all truths are provable with the scientific method. And I have faith not only in the Kingdom of God, but also that its existence will turn out to be scientifically unknowable for all eternity. In other words, it will always be *faith*.

 

[Cieza]

You do realize your purpose in this post is to accuse the brethren, and in so doing you are serving satan?

That may be how you interpret it. I'm actually "serving" no one other than myself and those who read my posts.

BTW, who is satan?
Where was he born?
How old is he?

 

[ephraimanesti]

That may be how you interpret it. I'm actually "serving" no one other than myself and those who read my posts.

MY BENIGHTED FRIEND,

Yes, you are correct--you are indeed serving "no one other than yourself." That is exactly how service to satan is rendered--through the unregenerate evil within ourselves which is created and fed by the sin of rebellion and unbelief and which leaves us open to the influence, manipulation, and control of the powers of darkness--basically leaving your status as that of a graceless puppet.

i certainly don't envy you!

ephraim

 

[jennimatts]

I'm not the one who ensures I have no personal relationship with God. That is something God decided. Why he doesn't want a personal relationship with me is something I don't know.

I have better and more interesting things to do with my time than read the Bible or go to church.

Now I have to wonder about this. You say you don't know why, so how can you know God decided he doesn't want a personal relationship with you? Wouldn't it be possible that there is something you don't yet understand that would indicate otherwise?

 

[Stephen Kendall]

If it were proven that there is no eternal life and no heaven:
1) would you still believe that Jesus died for the sins of others?
2) would you still believe that there is a fully omniscient & omnipotent God?
3) would you still maintain your personal relationship with God?
4) Would you still continue to read the Bible and/or go to church?

1) yes
2) yes
3) of course.
4) Belief is a part of who we are. Miracles that happen can't disappear as if they were fantasies, just because of some modern revelations of logic & proofs. How do you explain miracles? Did we somehow conjure up mystic powers and cause them? Did faith somehow produce a wedge in the laws of Physics? The next train of thought would be, are we really infant Gods, ourselves, if God isn't real and we cause miracles. Doesn't add up. Reading the Bible is a main connection to Jesus and his wisdom and call. Of course, we would read while their is still light.

 

[jennimatts]

I have never observed anything which would give me any sense that an omniscient & omnipotent being such as God exists.

What sort of observation would you be expecting?

If you don't believe unicorns exist, does that make you an enemy of unicorns?

No. The created rebelling against the creator (hence the reference to being an enemy) is vastly different from one disbelieving in a mythical creature (even if the mythical creature had a basis in the history of the animal kingdom).

If you recorded God speaking audibly to you and played it back for me to listen to, what would I hear?

I'm not sure, but it probably depends on the specific circumstances. Perhaps I could hear Gods voice and you wouldn't if the message wasn't directed at you. What makes you think God's voice could be recorded?

 

[cubinity]

If it were proven that there is no eternal life and no heaven:
1) would you still believe that Jesus died for the sins of others?
2) would you still believe that there is a fully omniscient & omnipotent God?
3) would you still maintain your personal relationship with God?
4) Would you still continue to read the Bible and/or go to church?

1) Yes. I don't believe in eternal life nor heaven, but still believe in Jesus as savior.
2) Yes. What do omniscience and omnipotence have to do with eternity as a concept?
3) Yes. My relationship with God has nothing to do with its duration, nor the duration of my existence.
4) Yes. They are entertaining and encouraging. They make me feel good.

 

[jennimatts]

In other words, if there is no resurrection of the dead then there is no Christianity.

I agree.

 

[jennimatts]

1. Yes, because we know he existed, we know he died for our sins. The bold phrase above does not exclude other possibilities e.g. there may be no heaven but there may be another Garden of Eden.

4. Yes, because the bold phrase does not exclude God, Jesus or Sacred Scripture. It does not exclude a tangible human experience with Christ or Scripture.

"If it were proven that there is no eternal life and no heaven", then the scripture is not true.

I agree this would not exclude other possibilities. However, if the scripture is falsified, it very certainly would exclude Christ as savior as revealed in the scripture. If the scripture is falsified, we could not know from scripture that he died for our sins, or even that there is sin. If the scripture is falsified, what is the Garden of Eden?

If the scripture is falsified, what is scripture, and how could it be sacred? If the scripture is falsified, who is God? If the scripture is falsified, who is Christ?

If the scripture is falsified, it then tells us nothing. It would be meaningless.

 

[jennimatts]

1) Yes. I don't believe in eternal life nor heaven, but still believe in Jesus as savior.
2) Yes. What do omniscience and omnipotence have to do with eternity as a concept?
3) Yes. My relationship with God has nothing to do with its duration, nor the duration of my existence.
4) Yes. They are entertaining and encouraging. They make me feel good.

1) Savior unto what?
3) If what is believed to be the word of God is proven false, could you maintain a relationship with that God? How would you know God?
4) You are being serious? If the scripture is false, you don't have to put on a phony religious aura to feel good. Go listen to a secular motivational speaker and then go get a massage.

 

[Cieza]

I have never observed anything which would give me any sense that an omniscient & omnipotent being such as God exists.

What sort of observation would you be expecting?

I would have to observe something like the Empire State Building being picked up and set down in a Nebraska cornfield.
I'd have to observe God reading my mind. See http://www.christianforums.com/t7613145/
I'd have to observe God reveal something about the future that no one could possibly know about.

If you don't believe unicorns exist, does that make you an enemy of unicorns?

No. The created rebelling against the creator (hence the reference to being an enemy) is vastly different from one disbelieving in a mythical creature (even if the mythical creature had a basis in the history of the animal kingdom).

I was created by my parents, not by some kind of supreme being. So if I don't believe a fully omniscient & omnipotent being exists, does that make me an enemy of any such beings?

If you recorded God speaking audibly to you and played it back for me to listen to, what would I hear?

I'm not sure, but it probably depends on the specific circumstances. Perhaps I could hear Gods voice and you wouldn't if the message wasn't directed at you. What makes you think God's voice could be recorded?

read the question again: If you recorded God speaking audibly to you and played it back for me to listen to, what would I hear?

Would I hear precisely the same audible sounds which you heard?