Another poor response to ERV evidence for common ancestry by a creationist.

[USincognito]

Careful with your taxonomy. Technically, "all modern hominids" include chimps, gorillas and orangs

Hominidae - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hominidae

Hominidae - Encyclopedia of Life

Just the other day I thought I saw a reference where the preferred name for all non Pan hominins was still hominins. Checking the Wiki entry though, Hominina would be referred to as hominans.

Man, real science is so complicated.

 

[Naraoia]

Just the other day I thought I saw a reference where the preferred name for all non Pan hominins was still hominins. Checking the Wiki entry though, Hominina would be referred to as hominans.

Man, real science is so complicated.

Well, to be fair, taxonomy is bookeeping more than science. If you consider that the single genus Drosophila spans several times more divergence time (in far shorter generations, to boot!) than the family Hominidae defined as great apes, it's quite clear that taxonomic ranks don't reflect objective criteria. And wherever we decide that Hominidae begins, it won't change the underlying relationships.

 

[SLP]

-- Don't they?

No - their distribution via design is mathematically impossible.

 

[SLP]

Dude?

If that is true, then how can any kind of phylogenetic tree be generated at all?

Do ALL genes 'jump'?
Really?

For that is the only way a nested hierarchy can be 'moot' - but even then, someone will have to explain the regularities we see in phylogenetic reconstructions when using differing sets of genes or noncoding DNA.

What is YOUR explanation for that, since jumping genes makes it all moot?

 

[Loudmouth]

To sum up the creationist responses so far:

1. Creationists claim that all 200,000 ERV's are functional without any evidence to support it.

2. Retroviruses don't exist, so ERV's are not evidence.

3. God could have put ERV's into the genome in a nested hierarchy fashion, even though God didn't need to. IOW, a variant of Last Thursdayism.

4. The nested hierarchy does not exist, even though we keep showing them that ERV's do in fact fall into a nested hierarchy (it's in one of the figures in the OP I believe).

5. Non-orthologous ERV's somehow falsify orthologous ERV's. Still haven't seen anyone explain how this works.

Anything else?

 

[Doveaman]

To sum up the creationist responses so far:

1. Creationists claim that all 200,000 ERV's are functional without any evidence to support it.

2. Retroviruses don't exist, so ERV's are not evidence.

3. God could have put ERV's into the genome in a nested hierarchy fashion, even though God didn't need to. IOW, a variant of Last Thursdayism.

4. The nested hierarchy does not exist, even though we keep showing them that ERV's do in fact fall into a nested hierarchy (it's in one of the figures in the OP I believe).

5. Non-orthologous ERV's somehow falsify orthologous ERV's. Still haven't seen anyone explain how this works.

Anything else?

Hominid Adam.

 

[Loudmouth]

Hominid Adam.

That doesn't explain LTR divergence. Why would God need to add different mutations to the 5' and 3' LTR's of any given ERV? Also, it fits right in with number 3 above. It is a form of Last Thursdayism, where God just makes it look like man evolved even though he didn't. For an all knowing and all powerful deity it would have been trivially easy to start from scratch. There is no reason that God would need to tweak the LTR's of an ERV so that they appear to have acquired mutations through neutral drift for 5 million years.

 

[Split Rock]

That doesn't explain LTR divergence. Why would God need to add different mutations to the 5' and 3' LTR's of any given ERV? Also, it fits right in with number 3 above. It is a form of Last Thursdayism, where God just makes it look like man evolved even though he didn't. For an all knowing and all powerful deity it would have been trivially easy to start from scratch. There is no reason that God would need to tweak the LTR's of an ERV so that they appear to have acquired mutations through neutral drift for 5 million years.

Why not? He has continued to feel the need to tweak his "perfect" creation almost since it was first finished.

 

[Loudmouth]

Why not? He has continued to feel the need to tweak his "perfect" creation almost since it was first finished.

Since the discovery of DNA and recombinant techniques, humans have joined in. We have found that we do not have to restrict ourselves to a nested hierarchy. In fact, there is no physiological reason that we really need to. As one example, you can take out cytochrome c from yeast and replace it with mouse cytochrome c and the yeast don't even notice. What is interesting is that mouse and yeast cytochrome c differ in their sequence by a large amount. We put jellyfish genes in zebra fish and get fluorescent zebra fish, no problem. I have personally put human genes in bacteria, and the bacteria don't even notice. There is nothing in nature that requires a nested hierarchy, and yet there it is.

Of all of the infinite number of genomes that God could have constructed for his mortal worshippers, why pick the one that would appear to be an evolved form of chimps and other apes? Why even have the genes for viral capsids in there? Why not take them all out? Why would an all knowing and all powerful being who resides outside of time and space need to reuse even a single design? Sadly, creationists have never thought these things through.

 

[dad]

To sum up the creationist responses so far:

1. Creationists claim that all 200,000 ERV's are functional without any evidence to support it.

2. Retroviruses don't exist, so ERV's are not evidence.

3. God could have put ERV's into the genome in a nested hierarchy fashion, even though God didn't need to. IOW, a variant of Last Thursdayism.

4. The nested hierarchy does not exist, even though we keep showing them that ERV's do in fact fall into a nested hierarchy (it's in one of the figures in the OP I believe).

5. Non-orthologous ERV's somehow falsify orthologous ERV's. Still haven't seen anyone explain how this works.

Anything else?

Non present state transfer.

 

[Greg1234]

Non present state transfer.

It should be noted that these insertions have never been observed presently Who is Your Creator: Endogenous Retroviruses

“The question arises as to whether HERV elements can continue to change our genomic landscape through active retrotransposition or recombination events. While no direct evidence indicates that such events are ongoing in the human genome, members of the HERV-K family appear to be the most likely candidates for playing such a role.”
Human Endogenous Retroviral Elements as Indicators of Ectopic Recombination Events in the Primate Genome
“Although repeated sequence elements such as HERVs have the potential to lead to chromosomal rearrangement through homologous recombination between distant loci, evidence for the generality of this process is lacking.”
Evidence for genomic rearrangements mediated by hu... [Nat Genet. 2001] - PubMed - NCBI.
PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus
“As for the elimination of the numerous copies produced by such rapid and extensive bursts, it is not yet clear whether recombination occurs continuously through time, thus slowly and regularly decreasing large amounts of DNA, or if there is any mechanism that would activate large recombination events following bursts of amplification, as proposed by some authors (Rabinowicz 2000).”
Formation of Solo-LTRs Through Unequal Homologous Recombination Counterbalances Amplifications of LTR Retrotransposons in Rice Oryza sativa L.


“No current transposition activity of HERVs or endogenization of human exogenous retroviruses has been documented so far.”
Retroelements and the human genome: New perspectives on an old relation
“Most of these elements represent ancient retroviral infections, as evidenced by their wide distribution in primate species, and no infectious counterparts of human endogenous retroviruses (HERVs) are known to exist today.”
Human endogenous retrovirus K solo-LTR formation and insertional polymorphisms: Implications for human and viral evolution

 

[Doveaman]

Why would an all knowing and all powerful being who resides outside of time and space need to reuse even a single design?

Because He is all knowing and all powerful, and you are not.

"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts." (Isa 55:8-9).

Your finite human brain is incapable of comprehending what an all knowing, all powerful God would or wouldn't do.

"For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom" (1 Cor 1:25).

 

[sfs]

It should be noted that these insertions have never been observed presently

“The question arises as to whether HERV elements can continue to change our genomic landscape through active retrotransposition or recombination events. While no direct evidence indicates that such events are ongoing in the human genome, members of the HERV-K family appear to be the most likely candidates for playing such a role.”
Human Endogenous Retroviral Elements as Indicators of Ectopic Recombination Events in the Primate Genome

Since mutations are very rarely observed as they occur, and ERV insertions are rare mutations, this is going to be true regardless of whether they are currently active or not. What we do know is that ERVs exist, that they carry the machinery for copying themselves into genomes, that the machinery is functional in other species' ERVs (i.e. you can observe them insert in the lab), and that young-looking insertions are present in some member of many species. If you have an alternative explanation for this set of facts, other than that ERVs actually do insert themselves, you should provide it.

 

[Loudmouth]

Because He is all knowing and all powerful, and you are not.

That doesn't answer my question at all. Why would an all powerful and all knowing entity need to reuse a single design? The only reason that humans reuse designs is because we have limited time and resources. If we had unlimited time and resources as well as being all knowing and all powerful it would require the same effort to start from scratch as it would reusing an existing design.

Your finite human brain is incapable of comprehending what an all knowing, all powerful God would or wouldn't do.

Perhaps you should tell Greg1234 that. He claims he does know what God would do, and it includes inserting retroviruses in genomes to make it look like evolution occurred.

"For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom" (1 Cor 1:25).

Ahh yes, the "do what we say and don't question it" part of christianity.

 

[Loudmouth]

It should be noted that these insertions have never been observed presently

They have been observed. Here is a map of thousands of insertions observed in this study:

Do you really think that there is a world wide conspiracy to cover up the non-existence of retroviruses? Do you really think retroviruses are incapable of being endogenized?

 

[Loudmouth]

Non present state transfer.

Last Thursdayism.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

They have been observed. Here is a map of thousands of insertions observed in this study:

<snip>

Do you really think that there is a world wide conspiracy to cover up the non-existence of retroviruses? Do you really think retroviruses are incapable of being endogenized?

Also, HIV doesn't cause AIDS (because it doesn't exist).

 

[Doveaman]

That doesn't answer my question at all.

I guess you missed it.

Why would an all powerful and all knowing entity need to reuse a single design?

Because He liked the design?

The only reason that humans reuse designs is because we have limited time and resources.

Or because we like the design.

If we had unlimited time and resources as well as being all knowing and all powerful it would require the same effort to start from scratch as it would reusing an existing design.

If we like the existing design there is no need to start from scratch. We simply modify the existing design to suit our needs.

Adam was formed from a pre-existing design that was resurrected with bodily modifications giving us our modern look:

Perhaps you should tell Greg1234 that. He claims he does know what God would do, and it includes inserting retroviruses in genomes to make it look like evolution occurred.

Greg's theory acknowledges what God is capable of doing. Your theory completely ignores God, which renders your theory meaningless.

Ahh yes, the "do what we say and don't question it" part of christianity.

You can question it, as long as you are open to doing what you are told. Otherwise what's the point in questioning it?

"Come now, let us reason together," Says the LORD. (Isa 1:18).

 

[dad]

It should be noted that these insertions have never been observed presently Who is Your Creator: Endogenous Retroviruses

“The question arises as to whether HERV elements can continue to change our genomic landscape through active retrotransposition or recombination events. While no direct evidence indicates that such events are ongoing in the human genome, members of the HERV-K family appear to be the most likely candidates for playing such a role.”
Human Endogenous Retroviral Elements as Indicators of Ectopic Recombination Events in the Primate Genome
“Although repeated sequence elements such as HERVs have the potential to lead to chromosomal rearrangement through homologous recombination between distant loci, evidence for the generality of this process is lacking.”
Evidence for genomic rearrangements mediated by hu... [Nat Genet. 2001] - PubMed - NCBI.
PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus
“As for the elimination of the numerous copies produced by such rapid and extensive bursts, it is not yet clear whether recombination occurs continuously through time, thus slowly and regularly decreasing large amounts of DNA, or if there is any mechanism that would activate large recombination events following bursts of amplification, as proposed by some authors (Rabinowicz 2000).”
Formation of Solo-LTRs Through Unequal Homologous Recombination Counterbalances Amplifications of LTR Retrotransposons in Rice Oryza sativa L.


“No current transposition activity of HERVs or endogenization of human exogenous retroviruses has been documented so far.”
Retroelements and the human genome: New perspectives on an old relation
“Most of these elements represent ancient retroviral infections, as evidenced by their wide distribution in primate species, and no infectious counterparts of human endogenous retroviruses (HERVs) are known to exist today.”
Human endogenous retrovirus K solo-LTR formation and insertional polymorphisms: Implications for human and viral evolution

The present and current transposition is irrelevant. We need to know how they used to get around.

 

[dad]

They have been observed. Here is a map of thousands of insertions observed in this study:



Do you really think that there is a world wide conspiracy to cover up the non-existence of retroviruses? Do you really think retroviruses are incapable of being endogenized?

Irrelevant. The issue is not what is now observed, but how the ERVs got around long ago.