What do you believe in?

[GrayAngel]

Sorry, about the delay, but I've been really busy. If the Bible does not teach free will, then I must not be able to read plain English. The Bible does in fact teach free will and election. I'm not trying to sound insulting but maybe you should pray for guidance on this subject, and try listening to God rather than John Calvin.

If there is no mention of free will in the Bible, than you will have to correct all the great men of God who, by the Holy Spirit, teach it. Adrian Rogers, Billy Graham, Clarence Larkin, Tim Lahaye, Hank Hanagraff, D.L. Moody, etc.

I'm going for coffee now; but when I get back, I will show alot more evidence to support free will, and election. Also, the reason God said to love our enemies, and pray for them is found in the verse itself. "So that we may be the sons of our Heavenly Father" in other words, to be like Him. This cannot be argued since it says it plain as day in the verse. Unless of course you will be found to argue even against God.

Love in Christ

I don't doubt your reading ability, but I doubt you have any scripture. People have been arguing this point from the very start of the topic, and I've yet to see one Biblical account of free will. It's not in there.

Rather, what people do is they take their own preconceptions and use them to interpret scripture. They'll quote things that they can twist around in their defense, but the scripture itself never speaks of free will.

Predestination, however, is not only hinted of, but it's spoken of very directly. You don't have to twist scripture around to find it. Those He foreknew, He predestined according to His will. We are saved by faith--which is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God--so that no man can boast. No one can come to Jesus unless the Father has enabled him.

According to the Bible, we are slaves to one of two masters: God or Satan. If we're slaves to Satan, we live in sin, and if we're slaves to God, we follow God's precepts. But slaves do not have any choice in the matter.

 

[Texan40]

I don't doubt your reading ability, but I doubt you have any scripture. People have been arguing this point from the very start of the topic, and I've yet to see one Biblical account of free will. It's not in there.

Rather, what people do is they take their own preconceptions and use them to interpret scripture. They'll quote things that they can twist around in their defense, but the scripture itself never speaks of free will.

Predestination, however, is not only hinted of, but it's spoken of very directly. You don't have to twist scripture around to find it. Those He foreknew, He predestined according to His will. We are saved by faith--which is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God--so that no man can boast. No one can come to Jesus unless the Father has enabled him.

According to the Bible, we are slaves to one of two masters: God or Satan. If we're slaves to Satan, we live in sin, and if we're slaves to God, we follow God's precepts. But slaves do not have any choice in the matter.

So basically if I find myself sinning I should just forsake Jesus and be the best sinner I can be? I don't need a supernatural spirit of discernment to see that this completely contradicts why Jesus was sent and what he taught while he was here.

 

[Skala]

Sorry, about the delay, but I've been really busy. If the Bible does not teach free will, then I must not be able to read plain English. The Bible does in fact teach free will and election. I'm not trying to sound insulting but maybe you should pray for guidance on this subject, and try listening to God rather than John Calvin.

If there is no mention of free will in the Bible, than you will have to correct all the great men of God who, by the Holy Spirit, teach it. Adrian Rogers, Billy Graham, Clarence Larkin, Tim Lahaye, Hank Hanagraff, D.L. Moody, etc.

I'm going for coffee now; but when I get back, I will show alot more evidence to support free will, and election. Also, the reason God said to love our enemies, and pray for them is found in the verse itself. "So that we may be the sons of our Heavenly Father" in other words, to be like Him. This cannot be argued since it says it plain as day in the verse. Unless of course you will be found to argue even against God.

Love in Christ

Bro, what do you mean exactly by "Free will"?

If you mean, defined as this: "Man is able to choose what he wants to choose". then of course, there is free will. No calvinist would disagree with you.

But if you mean "Man is unstained by the fall and therefore is able to both desire and choose good as much as he is evil. Ie, man's will is neutral between the two, not inclined toward one over the other, not biased at all"

Then every Calvinist and every Christian regardless of their soteriology should disagree with you, because that is very close to heresy. It is close to a denial of the fall, original sin, and man's fallen, corrupted nature.

So before you run around acting as if Calvinists have a blind devotion to Calvin instead of the Bible, it would be helpful if you defined your terms.

By the way, every single Calvinist I know personally has never read John Calvin's writings. They defend their beliefs from the Bible. Calvinism has nothing to do with John Calvin. It's just a nickname.

The Bible most certainly does not teach that man's will is free in this sense, but rather, is in bondage to the corruption of sin, his nature is fallen, ruined, and he can only do evil, he cannot please God (Rom 8:8), he cannot understand spiritual things, and he by nature finds the gospel foolish. Therefore, he cannot desire that which is good, until given a new nature.

Thus the absolute necessity of the new birth, which is monergistic, for anyone at all to positively receive Christ. Nobody has ever made themselves born again, it's God's work (John 3), nobody has ever came to Christ on their own, it's God's work (John 6), nobody has ever desired Christ without God first working on their hearts, for they only desire evil continually.

It is biblical to attribute man's conversion and salvation to God's mighty, effective grace, than to man's supposed "Free will".

 

[GrayAngel]

So basically if I find myself sinning I should just forsake Jesus and be the best sinner I can be? I don't need a supernatural spirit of discernment to see that this completely contradicts why Jesus was sent and what he taught while he was here.

The Bible is contradictory? I don't think so. Or do you doubt it's in there? The Bible teaches many times how we are servants to either God or Satan/sin/the world, and there is nothing in between.

Matthew 10:24-25 - “The student is not above the teacher, nor a servant above his master. It is enough for students to be like their teachers, and servants like their masters. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebul, how much more the members of his household!"

John 8:33-36 - They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?” Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed."

John 8: 42-47 - Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

Romans 6:6 - For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—

Romans 6:15-22 - What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

I Peter 2:16 - Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God’s slaves.

Matthew 11:29-30 - "Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”