How can omniscience and free will co-exist?

[Strider1002]

I would say, Chris, that you're attempting to define God with human limitations. There are many things about God that we are incapable of understanding, at least in our present state. For instance, we believe that God created the universe out of nothing. We can't understand it, but that doesn't make it untrue.

 

[Chris72]

The answer really depends on what we mean by God's plan. If that means God has planned everything out in my life then yeah I suppose there would be no free will. I don't see that as the case though as omniscience, specifically foreknowledge, does not entail direct causation and so the future God has foreseen is what we have chosen to do.

If God does not force human behavior as a result of knowing it we act of our own will and how we choose to act, hence free will. In that sense free will is balanced with omniscience (foreknowledge).

Yes, but you wouldnt have even been born if not for a countless number of very small "free will" decisions made by a countless number of people each and every day in the lives of countless generations prior to your day of birth. Any one of those decisions goes differently and you never make it here. nor do your children, or your grandchildren, etc.

I'll just take one isolated decision, for example. When your mother was ten years old, one day she crossed the street (I dont know anything about your mom, but I think it's a safe guess she crossed the street once between her 10th and 11th birthdays). A stranger makes the "free will" decision to run a red light and take his eyes off the road for a moment to adjust his radio, or to sneeze, etc. He strikes and kills your mother at 10 years of age. She therefore never meets/marries your father and never conceives you.

Any such decision could have been made literally countless number of times by countless numbers of people in any day of your mother's life resulting in her not conceiving you.

The same goes true for your father, and your grandparents, and your great-grandparents. Hell, one of your ancestors (I dont know your ancestry) could have made the free will decision to ignore the advice to duck during a moment in the peloponnesian war and been struck and killed by an arrow, prior to him meeting his future bride and conceiving your ancient ancestor!

Your parents could have made a free will decision resulting in a completely different genetic make-up for you, and hence you wouldnt have been you. You could have been the opposite gender, you could have had down's syndrome, you could have been a foot and a half taller and a superstar basketball player. Your genetic make-up would have been completely different if a different sperm had fertilized a different egg. For example, if your dad had been busy at work the night you were conceived, so they didnt have intercourse that night, and they didnt conceive for another month (and hence a different ovulatory cycle), it would have been an entirely different egg, as well as most certainly a different sperm.

So you cant have this sort-of loose freedom of choice if there is any sort of plan involving you, because you wouldnt even exist were it not for a pretty much infinite number of decisions going just right up until the day you were born. Free will cannot co-exist with omniscience.

 

[Chris72]

I think we are using the word plan differently. If I say God has a plan for me I mean that God knows what it is best for me to do. I don't mean that God caused me to be born. God is omniscient and so knows I would be born. So I agree that God didn't plan me to exist and then hope it worked out.

Again, if that were the case you cannot have free will in your decisions. see my post above. You cant have it both ways unless you just dont want to really think about.

 

[Chris72]

I would say, Chris, that you're attempting to define God with human limitations. There are many things about God that we are incapable of understanding, at least in our present state. For instance, we believe that God created the universe out of nothing. We can't understand it, but that doesn't make it untrue.

It doesnt make it true either. Again, this whole "his ways are beyond us" cop-out is just that, a cop-out. You reach a boundary in your knowledge, or a point where the facts/logic dont add up, and instead of looking for other possible explanations you just throw up your hands and say "well I guess it's just beyond my understanding. Praise be to (insert name of whatever gods you were raised to believe in by the culture around you)."

When the square peg doesnt fit in the round hole, dont keep trying to mash it in, dont just give up and claim "well it must fit in ways I dont understand". just put down the peg and try a different one. Preferably a round one.

 

[Cieza]

This is pretty simple and is discussed in detail at http://www.christianforums.com/t7573883/http://www.christianforums.com/t7573883/

If God is fully omniscient, then he knows on day 1 what your A/B choice will be on day 3. However, if you have not yet made your day 3 free A/B choice as of day 1, then you could still potentially choose A or B. So let's say God knows on day 1 that you will choose A on day 3. You then choose B per your ability to make a free choice. God's foreknowledge would thus be compromised. Very simple.

 

[Strider1002]

well I guess it's just beyond my understanding.

I don't guess; I know. I pray that the Lord reveals Himself to you, brother

 

[Chris72]

This is pretty simple and is discussed in detail at http://www.christianforums.com/t7573883/http://www.christianforums.com/t7573883/

If God is fully omniscient, then he knows on day 1 what your A/B choice will be on day 3. However, if you have not yet made your day 3 free A/B choice as of day 1, then you could still potentially choose A or B. So let's say God knows on day 1 that you will choose A on day 3. You then choose B per your ability to make a free choice. God's foreknowledge would thus be compromised. Very simple.

I'm sorry, but I really dont have the time to go through an entire other thread. I think that you are agreeing with me, that free will and omniscience are logically incompatible. If such a being knows the decision you make, you are powerless to do differently. If you have the power to do differently, such a being cannot be omniscient.

Of course, I am specifically addressing with this thread the point that such a being could not possibly have any plans with respect to you personally (if you believe we have free will) since it is only by chance that you would have even been born.

 

[AllieBaba2012]

Not a god, but the one and only God. I thought this forum was for believers.

Freewill can and does exist with the omniscience of God because we on our end experience Free Will. God on his end knows everything we do, and knows what we will do, before we do it...because he is God.

Humans cannot understand the mind of God because it is God who created your mind. We didn't create His. He knows the world and each of us future, past and present. But we can only see through the mirror darkly...we do not have access to all knowledge and understanding yet, and we cannot comprehend the greatness that is God. So while God knows us intimately inside and out, and has a plan that includes each of our decisions in it, and we cannot surprise him...at the same time, we are completely blind and must still weigh our choices carefully...and we do have the freedom to choose. God just already knows what choices we have made. He didn't make us make them, he lets us make them. But he knows what choices we make, and that's all a part of the whole ball of wax.

People who spend much time trying to figure out God and who doubt Him because they cannot fathom him are generally too arrogant to experience salvation. They are trapped in the belief that if it is beyond their understanding, it can't be.

 

[Chris72]

I don't guess; I know. I pray that the Lord reveals Himself to you, brother

See that's what gets me, this complete certainty despite not having anything, either through logic or evidence, to support your assertion. And this is the serious danger inherent to religion. As long as all those around you share this delusion, then all is fine. But your blind unyielding belief in such an imaginary being or beings will INEVITABLY clash with those who have a blind unyielding belief in a different imaginary being or beings. Conflict is inevitable and the vicious cycle of violence continues.

Any suicide bomber has similar unfounded certainty in their position. It is a natural extension of such fanatical beliefs. You just keep telling yourself and telling yourself that your gods are the true ones, and keep squashing out any seeds of doubts that may form, you eventually compartmentalize your brain so effectively that you become fully brainwashed and nothing can touch that belief any longer. And, as Voltaire once said, "those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

If you HAVE some evidence, logic or reason in support of your beliefs, let's hear it. If you HAVE any reason you came to your beliefs aside from just it being the predominant belief system in the culture around you, I'm all ears. That's what I'm hear for, a discussion on the matter. But just saying "I just KNOW it is, that's all" is how little children discuss things.

Base your beliefs on what you come to through logic, evidence, and reason, not primitive cultural superstitions that you have brainwashed yourself into believing that you "know". Then you will start to see an end to this madness.

I think rationally that open-mindedness reveals itself to you, brother.

 

[Chris72]

Not a god, but the one and only God. I thought this forum was for believers.

Freewill can and does exist with the omniscience of God because we on our end experience Free Will. God on his end knows everything we do, and knows what we will do, before we do it...because he is God.

Humans cannot understand the mind of God because it is God who created your mind. We didn't create His. He knows the world and each of us future, past and present. But we can only see through the mirror darkly...we do not have access to all knowledge and understanding yet, and we cannot comprehend the greatness that is God. So while God knows us intimately inside and out, and has a plan that includes each of our decisions in it, and we cannot surprise him...at the same time, we are completely blind and must still weigh our choices carefully...and we do have the freedom to choose. God just already knows what choices we have made. He didn't make us make them, he lets us make them. But he knows what choices we make, and that's all a part of the whole ball of wax.

People who spend much time trying to figure out God and who doubt Him because they cannot fathom him are generally too arrogant to experience salvation. They are trapped in the belief that if it is beyond their understanding, it can't be.

No, actually just another god. If you have evidence, logic, or reason to support your claim that your god is the "one true god", then let's hear it. And if your beliefs are threatened by my posts, you can feel free to ignore them. I am here to have a discussion on the matter with those who feel their beliefs can stand up to it. If for some reason I get banned, then that just represents the height of intellectual cowardice.

As far as the "his ways are beyond us" argument, this is nothing more than a cop-out. It's not answer, it just means you gave up on asking the question. I dont see anywhere in your post where you address the topic I posted.

 

[elopez]

So you cant have this sort-of loose freedom of choice if there is any sort of plan involving you, because you wouldnt even exist were it not for a pretty much infinite number of decisions going just right up until the day you were born. Free will cannot co-exist with omniscience.

Aside from your rambling example, I think the jest of what you may be trying to convey is that free will means the ability to change the future or the ability to do other than how we originally have done? Is that correct? If so I don't believe this 'loose' freedom exists at any rate.

All the factors that lead to my birth were going to happen no matter what. My parents relationship came about because they wanted it to come about. It was of their own will that it did. Again, God's foreknowledge does not conflict with this sort of freedom as it does not coerce my parents into acting, and thus they act out of their own will as to how God foresaw they would act. This freedom is known as compatibilism and differentiates from the 'loose' freedom you described.

Your argument is short coming however as the 'loose' freedom is not even logically supported, otherwise meaning you have to connect the ability to do otherwise (known as PAP in the free will/determinism debate) to the concept of free will to indeed show that free will actually means what you're saying it means.

 

[solarwave]

Again, if that were the case you cannot have free will in your decisions. see my post above. You cant have it both ways unless you just dont want to really think about.

I don't think your post above deals with what I said at all. I agree that any number of tiny choices would resulted in me not being born. No where in the post does it explain why omniscience and free will can't co-exist. It does explain why things wont always go exactly how God wants them to go if there is free will. I agree that that though.

If I say God has a plan I don't mean that things happen according to that plan. For example, I might plan on how to win a football match, but due to free will other people don't follow my plan and so lose the match. I still had a plan, its just that no one wanted to follow it.

 

[lesliedellow]

You will get different answers to this from different Christians, depending upon what their views are regarding predestination.

Personally, I would say that our wills are only relatively free; in the sense that we are not conscious of them being constrained in any way, and being able to act in accordance of our inclinations.

But of course our wills ARE constrained, even on the assumption that there is no God. They are constrained by the circumstances we find ourselves in. If they were not so constrained our actions would be merely arbitrary, and not particularly deserving of the label "rational". But if our actions are not unconstrained by circumstances, still less are they unconstrained by the will of the God who preordained those circumstances and who also created us with our particular temperament and personality.

As the originator of both our personalities and our particular circumstances, an omniscient God can easily predict how we will behave at every moment of our lives; thereby ensuring that his will is done, and his plans are fulfilled.

 

[Chris72]

Aside from your rambling example, I think the jest of what you may be trying to convey is that free will means the ability to change the future or the ability to do other than how we originally have done? Is that correct? If so I don't believe this 'loose' freedom exists at any rate.

That's not what "free will" means by anyone's definition that I've ever heard. Free will meaning ability to do other than what we have already done? I dont know where to begin with refuting that. Free will means the freedom to make your own choices.

All the factors that lead to my birth were going to happen no matter what.

And therefore no free will involved. Or at least, not according to what you apparently believe.

My parents relationship came about because they wanted it to come about. It was of their own will that it did. Again, God's foreknowledge does not conflict with this sort of freedom as it does not coerce my parents into acting, and thus they act out of their own will as to how God foresaw they would act. This freedom is known as compatibilism and differentiates from the 'loose' freedom you described.

No, actually what you are doing is contradicting yourself. You're saying they were free to make their own decisions but the god you believe in foresaw what decision they would make. Again, if someone can make either of two (or many choices) then no being can predict what decision will be made. If such a being can predict what decision will be made, then such a decision has already been decided and thus no free will.

You see, just repeating a logical contradiction enough times doesnt eventually make it true. You might eventually train your brain not to ask the question anymore, and thus convince yourself it makes sense. But it still represents a logical fallacy.

Your argument is short coming however as the 'loose' freedom is not even logically supported, otherwise meaning you have to connect the ability to do otherwise (known as PAP in the free will/determinism debate) to the concept of free will to indeed show that free will actually means what you're saying it means.

Free will absolutely means what I say it does. You are the one coming up with new definitions for the concept about changing what we have already done. You're fighting a losing battle.

 

[Chris72]

I don't think your post above deals with what I said at all. I agree that any number of tiny choices would resulted in me not being born. No where in the post does it explain why omniscience and free will can't co-exist.

The fact that any number of decisions could have resulted in you not being born ABSOLUTELY means that omniscience and free will can't co-exist. Take any particular decision:

If there exists an omniscient being, he knows what choice will be made.

If free will exists, one can choose any of a number of choices resulting in any number of outcomes.

So you can't have it both ways. Either the decision has already been predetermined and therefore omniscience. Or the decision has not been predetermined and free will.

If you want to keep repeating "if A=B and B=C, then A doesnt equal C" over and over and tell yourself it makes sense, go ahead. But the logic is pretty straightforward. Ignoring it is an extreme form of denial.

It does explain why things wont always go exactly how God wants them to go if there is free will. I agree that that though.

And thus not omniscience.

If I say God has a plan I don't mean that things happen according to that plan. For example, I might plan on how to win a football match, but due to free will other people don't follow my plan and so lose the match. I still had a plan, its just that no one wanted to follow it.

Sure. YOU had a plan. But you're not claiming that you personally are omniscient, are you. That's the difference.

 

[Chris72]

You will get different answers to this from different Christians, depending upon what their views are regarding predestination.

Personally, I would say that our wills are only relatively free; in the sense that we are not conscious of them being constrained in any way, and being able to act in accordance of our inclinations.

But of course our wills ARE constrained, even on the assumption that there is no God. They are constrained by the circumstances we find ourselves in. If they were not so constrained our actions would be merely arbitrary, and not particularly deserving of the label "rational". But if our actions are not unconstrained by circumstances, still less are they unconstrained by the will of the God who preordained those circumstances and who also created us with our particular temperament and personality.

Being constrained by circumstances is a whole lot different than predestination. You are just clouding the discussion. I'm not talking about constraints on free will, I am talking about omniscience and free will being mutually exclusive.

Again, any one of a basically infinite number of decisions made by countless people on a daily basis have the potential to alter any plan a supposedly omniscient being would have for his creation. It's ridiculous to think such a being would have a plan for you when any small decision could have resulted in you not being born.

As the originator of both our personalities and our particular circumstances, an omniscient God can easily predict how we will behave at every moment of our lives; thereby ensuring that his will is done, and his plans are fulfilled.

And thus no free will, again if this is what you believe. If he knows what decision you will make at any branch point, then such a decision has already been pre-ordained and thus any "free will" you have to make such a decision is just an illusion.

 

[lesliedellow]

And thus no free will, again if this is what you believe. If he knows what decision you will make at any branch point, then such a decision has already been pre-ordained and thus any "free will" you have to make such a decision is just an illusion.

Whether or not there is free will depends upon how you define free will, and it is not at all an easy thing to define.

 

[Chris72]

Whether or not there is free will depends upon how you define free will, and it is not at all an easy thing to define.

It's actually very easy to define. Nothing ambiguous about the term at all.

"Free" means not controlled by the obligation or the will of another. "Will" in this context means volition, the power of choosing or deciding. Put them together and you have free will, meaning voluntary choice or decision. It's not a nebulous term in the least bit.

It is only when you deliberately try to change the term, and then change the term "omniscience" hoping that if you keep stretching them out eventually you can make them both fit, that you run into difficulties.

But changing definitions isnt really making a logical argument. The concept is very simple. What is difficult is trying to make two contradictory statements fit together and make sense.

It's sort of like trying to understand for yourself for why 2+3=7. You could keep struggling and struggling with it, trying to stretch the definition of "2" or "3", eventually just stating "2+3=7" and that's that. Or you could ask yourself why you felt that way in the first place. If the only reason is because it was what you were told by the culture around you, and it would have been different (eg 2+3=9) in another culture, then you should re-think your original position.

When the peg doesnt fit in the hole, put it down and try a different peg. Dont just keep telling yourself the peg fits!

 

[elopez]

That's not what "free will" means by anyone's definition that I've ever heard. Free will meaning ability to do other than what we have already done? I dont know where to begin with refuting that. Free will means the freedom to make your own choices.

Then obviously you have not heard many people's take on free will. The argument from fatalism that is the argument you are basically presenting defines free will in that sense. That view of free will is known as libertarianism and is even held by some evangelical Christians. I'm not saying that's what free will means I'm saying usually according to the argument presented that's how the advocate defines free will.

I would say that part of free will is the ability to make choices, though I think that is a rather simple definition. I believe free will is the ability to act how we desire apart from external and internal factors that would otherwise prevent or force one to act.

And therefore no free will involved. Or at least, not according to what you apparently believe.

I don't see how free will isn't involved as I've described to how I believe...

No, actually what you are doing is contradicting yourself. You're saying they were free to make their own decisions but the god you believe in foresaw what decision they would make. Again, if someone can make either of two (or many choices) then no being can predict what decision will be made. If such a being can predict what decision will be made, then such a decision has already been decided and thus no free will.

I'm not contradicting myself. First, if God has foresaw the future what He has foreseen has not actually happened yet, so a decision has not actually been made in reality but as been perceived of by God that it will be made. Moreover, the desicion God has foresaw is the free will decision that my parents, not anyone else, will make. The 'prediction' doesn't make the future happen it is simply that: a prediction of what will happen.

You see, just repeating a logical contradiction enough times doesnt eventually make it true. You might eventually train your brain not to ask the question anymore, and thus convince yourself it makes sense. But it still represents a logical fallacy.

So no, there is no logical contradiction just a misunderstanding on your behalf. No fallacy as you have not even began to show one. Free will as defined in the above post is consistent with omniscience as again it is my parents that made the choice that arouse from their own minds and doing and God's knowledge did not conflict with that choice or acting. My parents acted how they wanted to and thus of their own will.

Free will absolutely means what I say it does. You are the one coming up with new definitions for the concept about changing what we have already done. You're fighting a losing battle.

Maybe, but what you say free will means is pretty dry. I have not come up with any new definitions but have asked you if your definition of free will was the one of libertarianism, of which I did not come up with. So if you think this is some battle and you are winning, I would tend to think you are the one training your brain to think so.

 

[lesliedellow]

It's actually very easy to define. Nothing ambiguous about the term at all.

"Free" means not controlled by the obligation or the will of another. "Will" in this context means volition, the power of choosing or deciding. Put them together and you have free will, meaning voluntary choice or decision. It's not a nebulous term in the least bit.

If free will is defined to mean, "not controlled by God's providence," then it doesn't exist. Happy?