What do you believe in?

[dies-l]

your question lacks a space for both to be true, which is the true and correct answer

Exactly!

 

[susan.baker]

Interesting.

 

[Skala]

Well, Calvinists do believe that both are true (God predestines, and man chooses, see Acts 4:27-28), but you have yet to provide Bible evidence for the order of faith and regeneration

I have provided plenty.

Dies, I asserted that you provided no evidence for the order of faith and regeneration, and you say you provided plenty.

Can you please demonstrate that you provided any at all? None of the verses you pasted even mention the doctrine of regeneration, much less demonstrate the nature between it and faith.

If they don't even mention regeneration, how can it be counted as evidence? For example, one of your "proofs" is John 3:16:

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whoever believes in him will not perish, but have everlasting life.

Can you show me where in this verse the doctrine of regeneration is found?

Also, it seems you have not done much study in 1 John,e specially regarding 1 Jn 5:1 , for throughout the book John lists attributes of believers and credits them to the fact that they are born of God:

1Jn 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

1Jn 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.

1Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

According to your reasoning, men become born of God by:

Not sinning
overcoming the world
and Loving

It is strange that in 1 Jn 5:1 suddenly, for no reason whatsoever, that you can demonstrate, John suddenly means that you become born of God by believing in Jesus, even though he words his argument the exact same way as he does in these other verses.

Further, I urge you to study the Greek grammar behind the verse brother, as you will find that born of God is the perfect tense, and 'believe' is a present participle. This means that the verse is saying that anyone who currently believes, was, in the past, born of God.

This, coupled with the facts from the other three verses in that john credits our actions with being born of God means that your conclusion is absolutely wrong and false.

There is no arguing this on the basis of grammar and context. And that's all that matters in Bible exegesis my friend.

 

[GrayAngel]

One verse alone should be enough to end this debate, though I know it won't, because some will interpret the Bible by their own ideas.

Ephesians 2:1-9 - As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.

Here we see many major proofs for the Predestination, the one I would emphasize the most is verse 8-9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."

We've all heard this verse before, but I've highlighted the part Free Will proponents frequently gloss over. Faith is a gift from God. We do not choose faith out of our free will: God gives it to us.

But why would God have to give faith to us? It's because we are unable to obtain it ourselves.

"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient." (1-2)

We were dead in our transgressions. Dead people cannot do anything for themselves. How many dead men have given life to their own dead bodies? What's more, according to scripture, everyone who is not ruled by God is ruled by Satan, AKA the "ruler of the air." We are never free, but we are slaves to one or the other, and believe me, Satan is not going to let anyone come to faith in Christ.

It's only by God coming in and rescuing us from that power that we can be saved.

"But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved." (4-5)

God gave us life, when we were helpless to find it ourselves. It is by grace--which by definition is a free gift which has nothing to do with anything we can do to earn it--that we are saved. We couldn't choose faith ourselves, which is why scripture says "no one can boast."

 

[histruth]

Skala, these are not supposed verses. I have already posted some of them, but I will be glad to post some more. John 3:16, John 12:32, John 3:17, 1st John 2:1-2, Acts 17:26-27, Acts 17:30, Romans 10:13, 1st Timothy 2:3-6, Luke 9:56, etc.

There are many more, and I will post them after work. Also, there are many verses that tell us to love our enemies. The reason we are to love our enemies is so that we will be like our Heavenly Father who loves them also.(see Matthew 5:44-45) I don't see God telling us to love and pray for people that He Himself does not love. If that were the case, His command would be to stay away from them and pray for their distruction. But, that is not what He says at all.

Moreover, Jesus lamented over Jerusalem because He wanted to gather them under His wings, but they would not.(see Mathew 23:37 and Luke 13:34) This shows that God desired a relationship with them, but they were not willing. The same holds true for the Gentiles. God revealed Himself to them ages ago; and even though they knew Him, they did not like to retain Him in their thoughts so God gave them up.(see Romans 1:18-32)

Anyway, I've got alot more I want to point out, but I've got to get to work. I'll continue with this later today, maybe during lunch.

Love in Christ.

 

[dies-l]

Dies, I asserted that you provided no evidence for the order of faith and regeneration, and you say you provided plenty.

1Jn 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

Look at the order here, one is born of God, and then overcomes the world.

1Jn 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.

And, here the order is switched. Love is evidence that one is born of God. So, according to John, if a person loves then they are born of God. A person who does not love is not born of God. The two go hand in hand.

1Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

Back again to the other order of things, being born of God causes one to not make a practice of sinning.

Now, let's look at the other verses we were talking about.

"Whoever believes in Him shall not perish . . . " The order here is belief, then not perishing.

"Everyone who believes . . . is born of God." Once again, but admittedly less clearly, believing causes one to be born of God. Now, I'll admit this much, if it weren't for the repeated command throughout Scripture to repent and believe, I might concede this one to the Calvinists. But, the entirety of the Gospel contains a command and a promise, which implies that anyone who hears can obey the command and thereby receive the promise.

According to your reasoning, men become born of God by:

Not sinning
overcoming the world
and Loving

You are stretching here. The only one of these that you pulled from a verse that grammatically matches 1 John 3:1 is 1 John 4:7. And, like John, I do believe that one cannot be saved if one does not love and one cannot love if one is not saved. Neither is a condition precedent to the other. The two occur in unison.

It is strange that in 1 Jn 5:1 suddenly, for no reason whatsoever, that you can demonstrate, John suddenly means that you become born of God by believing in Jesus, even though he words his argument the exact same way as he does in these other verses.

Further, I urge you to study the Greek grammar behind the verse brother, as you will find that born of God is the perfect tense, and 'believe' is a present participle. This means that the verse is saying that anyone who currently believes, was, in the past, born of God.

This, coupled with the facts from the other three verses in that john credits our actions with being born of God means that your conclusion is absolutely wrong and false.

In light of the above, I have to say that you are really stretching here.

There is no arguing this on the basis of grammar and context. And that's all that matters in Bible exegesis my friend.

I just did.

 

[RobertZ]

"Everyone who believes . . . is born of God." Once again, but admittedly less clearly, believing causes one to be born of God.

I gotta disagree here, this passage isnt saying that belief is what causes one to be born of God. Its simply showing that all who believe "have been born of God".


Its a result of one whom has been born of God and that result is belief. Those who do not believe obviously have not been born of God.

 

[dies-l]

I gotta disagree here, this passage isnt saying that belief is what causes one to be born of God. Its simply showing that all who believe "have been born of God".


Its a result of one whom has been born of God and that result is belief. Those who do not believe obviously have not been born of God.

And, as I said, I can see how the passage could be interpreted either way. But, John 3:16 combined with the repeated command throughout Scripture to repent and believe and the promise of salvation would tend to support the synergist interpretation.

 

[GrayAngel]

There are many more, and I will post them after work. Also, there are many verses that tell us to love our enemies. The reason we are to love our enemies is so that we will be like our Heavenly Father who loves them also.(see Matthew 5:44-45) I don't see God telling us to love and pray for people that He Himself does not love. If that were the case, His command would be to stay away from them and pray for their distruction. But, that is not what He says at all.

There's nothing in that verse that tells us that God loves our enemies.

Matthew 5:44-45 - But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

It says to love our enemies and to pray for them. Why should we? Not because God loves them, but because we want them to be saved. Paul himself used to be a persecuter or Christians, and he was transformed by God and used to write a majority of the New Testament. We don't know who God has elected, and to judge our enemies would be an attempt to usurp God's place as Judge of the living and the dead.

Also, Christians are told to be thankful for their persecutions, to be praise God that they would be "considered worthy" enough to be tortured for the name of Jesus. It's not the people who afflict us with pain, but it is God who ordains it. So we are thankful, no matter what He gives us in life, because we know that God is righteous, and He will reward our faith.

And if you think that the Bible says that God loves everybody, you've got a very limited knowledge of the Bible, because the Bible says in many places how God hates. He does not "hate the sin, and love the sinner." He hates the sin as well as the one who lives in it. This is why there is a Hell, and why Paul says that we were all once "objects of God's wrath" before salvation.

 

[RobertZ]

It says to love our enemies and to pray for them. Why should we? Not because God loves them, but because we want them to be saved.

But if God doesnt love them then their is no chance that they will be saved right?

This is why there is a Hell, and why Paul says that we were all once "objects of God's wrath" before salvation.

Hmm, makes me wonder then if we were all once objects of Gods wrath then Jesus sacrifice really does only make salvation a possibility for the one whom believes.

 

[Skala]

Dies, I don't think you understand. The order that it appears in the sentence does not matter. What matters is the "tense" of the Greek grammar.

The phrase "has been born of God" is perfect tense, ie, it happened already in the past.

As you rightly noted, the attributes that John lists (overcoming the world, loving, etc) are evidence of their new birth.

You don't become born of God by overcoming the world, but rather, you overcome the world because you have been born of God.

These "attributes" are present participle, ie, they are "currently ongoing". And again, has been born of God is perfect tense in the Greek.

If you are overcoming the world you have been born of God
If you are loving you have been born of God
If you are ceasing to sin you have been born of God
If you are believing in Jesus you have been born of God

One thing is for sure brother, even if you deny my argument here, you must admit that the passage and the Greek do not allow for any interpretation that says that you become born of God by believing in Jesus.

1) For starters, the Grammar doesn't allow it.

2) But for the sake of the argument (though #1 is all that matters), you'd also have to conclude that John is teaching that we become born of God by overcoming the world, loving, ceasing to sin, etc.

And you rightly noted that that is not what John is saying. How can you be consistent in continuing to assert the opposite in verse 5:1? It is not consistent my friend.

Be blessed,

Joe

 

[MichaelKelley]

You didn't give all the choices!! I believe in BOTH free will AND predestination. The Bible clearly teaches both and they are NOT contradictory.

God exists OUTSIDE of space and time, as He is the Creator. All we know is life WITHIN the space-time domain, so to us the two seem paradoxical, but to God there is no paradox. Can I explain it, no because I'm not a Quantum Physicist and I also only know what it's like within space-time.

How about changing that poll so people have the opportunity to give the RIGHT answer. The Bible clearly teaches both are correct.

 

[Skala]

Moreover, Jesus lamented over Jerusalem because He wanted to gather them under His wings, but they would not.(see Mathew 23:37 and Luke 13:34) This shows that God desired a relationship with them, but they were not willing. The same holds true for the Gentiles. God revealed Himself to them ages ago; and even though they knew Him, they did not like to retain Him in their thoughts so God gave them up.(see Romans 1:18-32)

Histruth, for one, which conversation are you meaning to respond to? I am confused by your response, perhaps I do not know the context?

For two, I think you are icnorrect regarding Matthew 23:37

Notice, Jesus was not trying to gather "Jerusalem", but rather "their children"

Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!

Notice, the ones Jesus longed to gather is not the same group that weren't willing. The Jewish leaders (ie, jerusalem, whom he has been condemning for the past 30 verses) were not willing to let Jesus gather their children.

You are assuming that the verse reads this way: "I longed to gather you, but you were not willing"

But that's not what it says He longed to gather their children, but they were not willing (he doesn't say their children weren't willing)

This may seem strange to point out, but if you read the verse in context, you will see what I mean. For the past 30 verses Jesus is condemning the religious leaders "Woe to you!", etc

Verse 37 is not Jesus crying over people who were not willing to come to Him, but rather, it is a continuation of condemnation. He says he longed to gather their children, but they were not willing, and they are guilty for such.

If you have a Bible that says "Jesus weeps over Jeruselem" in the footnotes, go ahead and throw that away, because it is pure tradition and has nothing to do with the context of the chapter. It wasn't added by Matthew, it was added by translators who have no idea how to interpret the bible in context.

The rub:

The people Jesus longed to gather is not the same group of people that weren't willing. Context matters!

 

[RobertZ]

God exists OUTSIDE of space and time, as He is the Creator. All we know is life WITHIN the space-time domain, so to us the two seem paradoxical, but to God there is no paradox. Can I explain it, no because I'm not a Quantum Physicist and I also only know what it's like within space-time.

How about changing that poll so people have the opportunity to give the RIGHT answer. The Bible clearly teaches both are correct.

At this point in time I have to agree with you until at least someone can prove this to be wrong.

 

[Skala]

Despite MichaelKelly's post, the question remains:

Do we believe because God predestined us?
Or did God predestine us because we believe?

I'm convinced it's the former. It's based on God's grace alone. The Bible never says he chose us based on what he saw we would do, but rather, because "of his own purpose and grace" to his own glory.

 

[GrayAngel]

You didn't give all the choices!! I believe in BOTH free will AND predestination. The Bible clearly teaches both and they are NOT contradictory.

God exists OUTSIDE of space and time, as He is the Creator. All we know is life WITHIN the space-time domain, so to us the two seem paradoxical, but to God there is no paradox. Can I explain it, no because I'm not a Quantum Physicist and I also only know what it's like within space-time.

How about changing that poll so people have the opportunity to give the RIGHT answer. The Bible clearly teaches both are correct.

You're not the first to come in here and say this. But the fact of the matter is the two are NOT compatible, and free will is nowhere to be seen in the Bible. No one has yet been able to provide any Biblical proof of anything otherwise.

Predestination is Biblical. Free will is a man-made concept. Free will is not in the Bible: it's read into it (ie forcibly inserted).

As for your poll options, as I keep saying, your opinion is an alternative, which means you should pick "Neither," because you don't believe in one by itself. No one else is going to vote that option unless they don't believe in God, in which case I'd wonder why they consider themselves Baptists.

 

[histruth]

Sorry, about the delay, but I've been really busy. If the Bible does not teach free will, then I must not be able to read plain English. The Bible does in fact teach free will and election. I'm not trying to sound insulting but maybe you should pray for guidance on this subject, and try listening to God rather than John Calvin.

If there is no mention of free will in the Bible, than you will have to correct all the great men of God who, by the Holy Spirit, teach it. Adrian Rogers, Billy Graham, Clarence Larkin, Tim Lahaye, Hank Hanagraff, D.L. Moody, etc.

I'm going for coffee now; but when I get back, I will show alot more evidence to support free will, and election. Also, the reason God said to love our enemies, and pray for them is found in the verse itself. "So that we may be the sons of our Heavenly Father" in other words, to be like Him. This cannot be argued since it says it plain as day in the verse. Unless of course you will be found to argue even against God.

Love in Christ

 

[98cwitr]

Can anyone wrap their brain around free will just being a perception?

 

[MichaelKelley]

WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?! Why can't you all just believe what the Bible says? It CLEARLY teaches BOTH free will and predestination. Both sides in this whole debate are correct!

Despite MichaelKelly's post, the question remains:

Do we believe because God predestined us?
Or did God predestine us because we believe?

I'm convinced it's the former. It's based on God's grace alone. The Bible never says he chose us based on what he saw we would do, but rather, because "of his own purpose and grace" to his own glory.

To your questions, YES TO BOTH.

God does predestine, but yet God does give us free will too. Those seem like paradoxes because we exist WITHIN the space-time domain. When you take into account that God created space-time and thus, exist outside of it, all paradoxes vanish. I don't totally understand it because all I know is life within space-time... And I'm not a Quantum Physicist either.

You're not the first to come in here and say this. But the fact of the matter is the two are NOT compatible, and free will is nowhere to be seen in the Bible. No one has yet been able to provide any Biblical proof of anything otherwise.

Predestination is Biblical. Free will is a man-made concept. Free will is not in the Bible: it's read into it (ie forcibly inserted).

As for your poll options, as I keep saying, your opinion is an alternative, which means you should pick "Neither," because you don't believe in one by itself. No one else is going to vote that option unless they don't believe in God, in which case I'd wonder why they consider themselves Baptists.

THEY ARE BOTH BIBLICAL AND CORRECT. Listen to this teaching from the Word of God on the subject of Free Will and Predestination, titled, "Sovereignty of Man."
Sovereignty of Man - YouTube

 

[rturner76]

Romans 1:17 (Romans 1)

For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith,1 as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”2

Romans 3:22 (Romans 3)

the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:

Romans 3:25 (Romans 3)

whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

Romans 3:26 (Romans 3)

It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Romans 3:27 (Romans 3)

Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.

Romans 3:28 (Romans 3)

For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Romans 3:30 (Romans 3)

since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

Romans 3:31 (Romans 3)

Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Romans 4:5 (Romans 4)

And to the one who does not work but believes in1 him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Romans 4:16 (Romans 4)

That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

Romans 5:1 (Romans 5)

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we1 have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Footnotes
[1] 5:1 Some manuscripts let us

Romans 5:2 (Romans 5)

Through him we have also obtained access by faith1 into this grace in which we stand, and we2 rejoice3 in hope of the glory

Romans 9:30 (Romans 9)

What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith;

Romans 9:32 (Romans 9)

Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,

Romans 10:6 (Romans 10)

But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down)

Romans 10:8 (Romans 10)

But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim);

Romans 10:17 (Romans 10)

So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Romans 16:26 (Romans 16)

but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith—

Acts 26:18 (Acts 26)

to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

Acts 15:9 (Acts 15)

and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.

Shall we continue? We are saved by grace. That grace is made alive in us by our faith in that grace. Th evidence of that faith is our works.

I wonder if people worship our lord Jesus Christ or Mr. Calvin who was an intelligent man but never the less a man and fallible like the rest of us. How can you be saved by grace without faith in that grace?

God Bless you all for we are all Christians. I assume none are Calvians.