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Lets talk about the supposed vow of chastity of Mary

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Dorothea

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Another part pulled from the same article above from the Coptic Orthodox beliefs:

angel Gabriel proclaimed to St. Mary herself when she asked him: “How can this come about, since I do not know man?!”, “ the Holy Spirit will come upon you ” , the angel answered, “and the power of the Most High will overshadow you, and so the Child will be called Son of God” ( Luke 1: 34, 35). Subsequently, this Virginal Birth formed a principal element in all the creeds of the Early Church, not because it says something about St. Mary, but rather because it reveals the Person and Nature of Jesus Christ. For example, the Creed of St. Hippolytus (c. 215) states: “Do you believe in Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who was born of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary.....?”(1) This argument was used also by the early Christian apologists, such as St. Justin and Athenagoras, in their defence on behalf of Christianity. St. Ignatius of Antioch (m. 110 A.D.), preached this Virginal Birth as one of the great Christological (dealing with Christ) mysteries, which were loudly proclaimed to the world in his time: “The virginity of Mary, her childbirth, and also the death of the Lord”. These were hidden from the prince of the world. Three mysteries loudly proclaimed but wrought in the stillness of God.(2) (1) The Apostolic Tradition of St. Hippolytus 21:15 (2) St. lgnatius: Epist. Ad Ephes. 19:1 12

In brief, this doctrine “the Virginal Birth” in fact is the outward sign of the mystery of Incarnation. For it affirms that Jesus Christ who is the real son of a real mother, was not conceived of human seed, but of the Holy Spirit. Although the Son of Man, He has no hereditary sin, but stands at the Head of a new human race.(1) Virginity and Our Salvation 1. God comes to us, born of a virgin and conceived not of human seed. He unites Himself with us (humanity), not because of our human efforts or merits, but rather as a divine grace bestowed on us. It is the free gift of love which only comes from God. In other words, St. Mary's virginity is, therefore, a sign of man's poverty and his inability to work out his own salvation; to bring into being One who can save him.(2) 2. St. Mary's virginity does not mean that we have to be passive in our spiritual life. For God did not force Himself in St. Mary's womb, nor did she conceived Him unwillingly, but played an active role. God asked her to accept! The Divine Incarnation was realized by the free grace of God, but she herself humbly accepted obedience. (1) John McHaugh: The Mother of Jesus in the N.T., N.Y. 1975, p. 339 (2) Max Thurian: Mary, Mother of all Christians, N.Y. 1964. p. 32 13


Saint Mary in the orthodox concept by father Tadros Jakob malty
 
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mrmccormo

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So Joseph disobayed the command from the lord via the angel to take her as his wife?

  1. Matthew 1:20
    But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
  2. Matthew 1:24
    When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife.
This was brought up earlier and was refuted earlier.

Just because two people get married does not mean they will have sex. Does it mean it's a possibility? Of course. Is sex something God blesses within the marriage context? Of course. But you cannot say "they are married, therefore they had sex" no more than you can say "he plays sports, therefore he is a quarterback".
 
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washedagain

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I think you might want to check the translations. The term translated here as "wife" is actually 'gyne', and means a woman of any age. Christ uses the term to address His mother, and other women - it can also mean betrothed or wife.


She was already betrothed. The angel did not tell him to take her as his betrothed AGAIN.
 
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washedagain

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This was brought up earlier and was refuted earlier.

Just because two people get married does not mean they will have sex. Does it mean it's a possibility? Of course. Is sex something God blesses within the marriage context? Of course. But you cannot say "they are married, therefore they had sex" no more than you can say "he plays sports, therefore he is a quarterback".

I didn't say anything about them having sex when I posted those scriptures... not sure what you are going on about.
 
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Thekla

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She was already betrothed. The angel did not tell him to take her as his betrothed AGAIN.

Suspecting her of adultery, Joseph was planning to 'put her away quietly'.

In this way, Joseph is informed that she did not commit adultery.

As pointed out, they are still betrothed when she is about to deliver.
 
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washedagain

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Suspecting her of adultery, Joseph was planning to 'put her away quietly'.

In this way, Joseph is informed that she did not commit adultery.

As pointed out, they are still betrothed when she is about to deliver.

So?

And he did as the angel said... took her as his wife. Unless of course he was disobedient.

24And Joseph rising up from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and took unto him his wife.


Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

Matthew 1:24

King James Version (KJV)


24Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

King James Version (KJV)

Matthew 1:24

American Standard Version (ASV)


24 And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took unto him his wife;

American Standard Version (ASV)

Matthew 1:24

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

24And Joseph, having risen from the sleep, did as the messenger of the Lord directed him, and received his wife,
 
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Thekla

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So?

And he did as the angel said... took her as his wife. Unless of course he was disobedient.

24And Joseph rising up from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and took unto him his wife.


Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

Matthew 1:24

King James Version (KJV)


24Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

King James Version (KJV)

Matthew 1:24

American Standard Version (ASV)


24 And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took unto him his wife;

American Standard Version (ASV)

Matthew 1:24

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

24And Joseph, having risen from the sleep, did as the messenger of the Lord directed him, and received his wife,


All of these verses use the term "gyne"; the translators have given the translation "wife". They likewise could have translated this as "woman" or "betrothed".

Luke attests that they were not married when Mary was about to deliver:

"To be taxed with Mary his espoused (mnisteuw) wife, being great with child." Luke 2:5

How can this passage in Matthew be translated as "wife" when the passages in Matthew describe a time period prior to the time period when Luke states they were still engaged ?
 
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mrmccormo

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And what is the point of all these Mary is virgin forever thing?Maybe those believers can tell us what they hope to achieve.
It's not that anyone is trying to "achieve" anything at all. Since we are all flawed Christians trying to follow Christ, we're doing our best to learn God's message. We've noticed that the early Christians believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary, and since they did a pretty good job creating our Bible, we figure we should also pay attention to some of the other things they said.

At least, that's where I'm coming from. I cannot speak for all people.
 
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washedagain

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Definition of ESPOUSE

transitive verb
1
: marry

2
: to take up and support as a cause : become attached to

— es·pous·er noun

See espouse defined for English-language learners »

See espouse defined for kids »

Examples of ESPOUSE


  1. The new theory has been espoused by many leading physicists.
  2. Those espousing unpopular views were often excluded.




Related to ESPOUSE

Synonyms: marry, match, wed


I am sorry... I don't see what you are seeing. Luke and Matt both attest that Joseph took her as his wife.
 
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washedagain

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It's not that anyone is trying to "achieve" anything at all. Since we are all flawed Christians trying to follow Christ, we're doing our best to learn God's message. We've noticed that the early Christians believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary, and since they did a pretty good job creating our Bible, we figure we should also pay attention to some of the other things they said.

At least, that's where I'm coming from. I cannot speak for all people.

The word of God was already created in the First Century. Men simply put the volumes together.

Man did not "create" it. God is the originator and creator.

Yes, SOME early writers did write of Mary being a perpetual virgin. They speak of nothing of where this teaching originated from.

The Earliest writers are completely silent on the issue.


I think the poster is asking of what value is there to know about Mary's sex life? If it truly is the word of God and truth, of what bearing does it have on the believer? What is the significance of knowing this truth?

How is your life impacted knowing that Mary never had sex?
 
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Thekla

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Definition of ESPOUSE

transitive verb
1
: marry

2
: to take up and support as a cause : become attached to

— es·pous·er noun

See espouse defined for English-language learners »

See espouse defined for kids »

Examples of ESPOUSE


  1. The new theory has been espoused by many leading physicists.
  2. Those espousing unpopular views were often excluded.




Related to ESPOUSE

Synonyms: marry, match, wed


I am sorry... I don't see what you are seeing. Luke and Matt both attest that Joseph took her as his wife.

That's interesting, because Langenscheidt (dictionary), Harper (analytical Greek lexicon), Thayer (lexicon) and the Apostolic Bible (lexical concordance) all state it means betrothal.

They also all agree that "gamew" and its related terms indicate marriage.

I would question the accuracy of your source for use with the Greek language.
 
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washedagain

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That's interesting, because Langenscheidt (dictionary), Harper (analytical Greek lexicon), Thayer (lexicon) and the Apostolic Bible (lexical concordance) all state it means betrothal.

They also all agree that "gamew" and its related terms indicate marriage.

I would question the accuracy of your source for use with the Greek language.

So, you are suggesting that the word of God is contradicting itself?

Are you suggesting that Joseph never married Mary?

If that is the case, Jesus would have been looked upon by his contemporaries as a bastard. Mary would have been looked upon by her contemporaries as breaking the law and a harlot. We read nothing of that in scripture.

What I read in scripture is that Joseph took Mary as his wife.
 
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mrmccormo

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The word of God was already created in the First Century. Men simply put the volumes together.

Man did not "create" it. God is the originator and creator.

Yes, SOME early writers did write of Mary being a perpetual virgin. They speak of nothing of where this teaching originated from.

The Earliest writers are completely silent on the issue.


I think the poster is asking of what value is there to know about Mary's sex life? If it truly is the word of God and truth, of what bearing does it have on the believer? What is the significance of knowing this truth?

How is your life impacted knowing that Mary never had sex?
You are incorrect: the canon of the Bible has been preserved and protected by God's Church. There is no infallible document that says "Thus saith the Lord, here are the 77 Bible books you should use".

If you ignore the value of the Church, you ignore history and you ignore Scripture.

Most of the "earliest writers" (outside of the Bible itself) are found in the 4th century, and they are definitely NOT silent on the issue. Of course, I've already established that just because a writer is silent on the matter does not mean that the Tradition of the Church was silent on the matter.

So, I stand by what I said. The early church was persecuted, killed, and driven out of cities. Yet they managed to preserve the truth, and the perpetual virginity of Mary was among the truths they preserved. That is why I pay attention to it.

As other posters have expressed, it has very little to do with Mary's sex life. It has to do with Mary setting herself apart for the Lord for an expressed purpose. The vow of chastity just happened to be a part of it. It could have been a vow of not eating matzo for all I care (even though that is nonsensical). The content of the vow is not as important as the reasoning behind it.
 
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Thekla

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So, you are suggesting that the word of God is contradicting itself?

Are you suggesting that Joseph never married Mary?

If that is the case, Jesus would have been looked upon by his contemporaries as a bastard. Mary would have been looked upon by her contemporaries as breaking the law and a harlot. We read nothing of that in scripture.

What I read in scripture is that Joseph took Mary as his wife.

The Scriptures never state that they married.

The translation of Scripture that you are using is not accurate. The translation has twisted what the Scripture actually says !!

The state of betrothal was a contractual state, yes.

You are welcome to think what you might think beyond that.

(And, in John, the pharisees' suggestive taunt re: the parentage of Christ, "we know who our father is" is recorded.)
 
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