Blowing on Knots - Questions to Muslims.

[AskTheFamily]

It's the 2nd last Surah in the Quran.

قُلْ أَعُوذُ بِرَبِّ الْفَلَقِ [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]{1}[/FONT]
[SIZE=-1][Shakir 113:1] Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of the dawn,[/SIZE]
مِنْ شَرِّ مَا خَلَقَ [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]{2}[/FONT]
[SIZE=-1][Shakir 113:2] From the evil of what He has created,[/SIZE]
وَمِنْ شَرِّ غَاسِقٍ إِذَا وَقَبَ [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]{3}[/FONT]
[SIZE=-1][Shakir 113:3] And from the evil of the utterly dark night when it comes,[/SIZE]
وَمِنْ شَرِّ النَّفَّاثَاتِ فِي الْعُقَدِ [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]{4}[/FONT]
[SIZE=-1][Shakir 113:4] And from the evil of those who blow on knots,[/SIZE]
وَمِنْ شَرِّ حَاسِدٍ إِذَا حَسَدَ [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]{5}[/FONT]
[SIZE=-1][Shakir 113:5] And from the evil of the envious when he envies.[/SIZE]

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Idk, maybe God doesn't approve of us seeking supernatural help from any other source than him? Viewed in that sense, trying to work magic would be a kind of polytheism in itself. Call it trying to subvert God's authority.

But if there is no other source, anyway, then what are people doing other than calling the deity by another name, and imagining "Him" incorrectly?

If you had created a bunch of sentient beings whose mental faculties could never suffice to grasp you completely, would you feel offended and punish them if they tried to imagine you in terms that were understandable to them - even if these were wrong?

I think you presume much if you think you can deduce what an omnipotent, omniscient deity with certain properties would "think".

And yet, that seems to be the very nature of religions such as your own, picturing a personal deity with very specific properties, motivations, feelings, and agendas - all of which curiously fit into specific cultural contexts.

 

[awitch]

So why does Quran tell us to seek refuge from it, if it has no power?

Because people are superstitious.
It's a parlor tick; a gimmick. The cord, knot, and blowing provides the visual trigger to psych people out. To say, "I did magic" is not convincing enough.

 

[AskTheFamily]

Also, to add, the Prophet is addressed singularly in this. So saying something like not to be pyschologically effected by them, doesn't make sense, because the Prophet is the one told to seek refuge from their evil.

 

[Robban]

So why does Quran tell us to seek refuge from it, if it has no power?

This thread is intended for muslims, but if I may chip in, muslims also believe there is but one true God. If it has siilarities with Judaism, then magic is forbidden, the negative commandments 31-37,8, I think should do it. The main reason seems to be, to seperate oneself from other peoples and beliefs and so on, don,t do as others who do not know me, kind of thing.
"I shall raise my eyes to the mountains, from where will my help come?"
Ps 121:2,
"My help is from the Lord, the Maker of Heaven and Earth."
If one has put their trust in the one true God, there is no need to turn to magic or any other hokus pokus.
Who is one going to point to?
Btw, if you are searching for the truth, how will you know when you have found it?

 

[AskTheFamily]

Btw, if you are searching for the truth, how will you know when you have found it?

I can know true things, I will never know everything that is true, or the whole truth. I will probably always have false ideas as well. I might think those ideas are true.

I use to think I knew I found the true religion. So I really won't trust "this is so amazing and wonderful" type feeling to determine the truth.

The thing is once you feel that way, and your convinced, it's very hard to convince yourself otherwise.

I know some people think they see something special and amazing in the bible. I use to feel like that about Quran. Bahais feel like that about their revelation.

At the end, I don't think it's reliable. I probably won't follow another religion.

I also don't trust third eye mystical experiences anymore. So if I have one of those with some pagan goddesses or fairies or dragons or djinn or aliens, I won't believe it, and rather say my mind is acting up on me.

 

[Robban]

I can know true things, I will never know everything that is true, or the whole truth. I will probably always have false ideas as well. I might think those ideas are true.

I use to think I knew I found the true religion. So I really won't trust "this is so amazing and wonderful" type feeling to determine the truth.

The thing is once you feel that way, and your convinced, it's very hard to convince yourself otherwise.

I know some people think they see something special and amazing in the bible. I use to feel like that about Quran. Bahais feel like that about their revelation.

At the end, I don't think it's reliable. I probably won't follow another religion.

I also don't trust third eye mystical experiences anymore. So if I have one of those with some pagan goddesses or fairies or dragons or djinn or aliens, I won't believe it, and rather say my mind is acting up on me.

O come on ATF ,what,s happened?
I remember you from before or about a year ago, I think, I thought then, what a devoted guy, and then you took a break to study more, I thought to myself then , Yeah, that,s what I should do as well.
Well, I was taken aback by this turn up, I can tell you that much.
I have no wish to poke my nose into other peoples buisness, so I will say no more. But the one who is running the show, the one who steers the Universe knows already the outcome, so just hold on in there.

 

[AskTheFamily]

I found logical errors in Quran, contradictions, verses that didn't make sense. That big faith I had just vanished after I realized logic proved the Quran wrong.

I stopped posting the issues I have here, I'm posting them on a Muslim forum, but so far I don't see any answers.

 

[Robban]

I found logical errors in Quran, contradictions, verses that didn't make sense. That big faith I had just vanished after I realized logic proved the Quran wrong.

I stopped posting the issues I have here, I'm posting them on a Muslim forum, but so far I don't see any answers.

Well it,s a given that I wish you all the very best ATF.
You pop up in my thoughts from time to time.
I say no more. Keep well.

 

[JJWhite]

Well it,s a given that I wish you all the very best ATF.
You pop up in my thoughts from time to time.
I say no more. Keep well.

Tell me about it. I'd stopped coming on these forums for the most part.. just stopping by every week or two... then, when I saw this... I don't know.... I keep coming on like five times a day just to check up on ATF.

Wishing the best for all,

JJ

(P.S. Magic is considered idolatry in our religion. I'm guessing it's similar in Judaism. The mitzvot forbidding magic come right under the ones talking about idolatry, no?)

 

[Robban]

Tell me about it. I'd stopped coming on these forums for the most part.. just stopping by every week or two... then, when I saw this... I don't know.... I keep coming on like five times a day just to check up on ATF.

Wishing the best for all,

JJ

(P.S. Magic is considered idolatry in our religion. I'm guessing it's similar in Judaism. The mitzvot forbidding magic come right under the ones talking about idolatry, no?)

Hi JJ, to your PS first, that is correct.
Well JJ, what is there to tell? Nothing goes unnoticed,I don,t really know what to say, but thoughts are on-going all the time or so it seems, though it seems also that we can think God,s thoughts, and then do them. Well that,s all I can say, please excuse me if I am not that clear.

 

[PHenry42]

It's the 2nd last Surah in the Quran.

قُلْ أَعُوذُ بِرَبِّ الْفَلَقِ [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]{1}[/FONT]
[SIZE=-1][Shakir 113:1] Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of the dawn,[/SIZE]
مِنْ شَرِّ مَا خَلَقَ [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]{2}[/FONT]
[SIZE=-1][Shakir 113:2] From the evil of what He has created,[/SIZE]
وَمِنْ شَرِّ غَاسِقٍ إِذَا وَقَبَ [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]{3}[/FONT]
[SIZE=-1][Shakir 113:3] And from the evil of the utterly dark night when it comes,[/SIZE]
وَمِنْ شَرِّ النَّفَّاثَاتِ فِي الْعُقَدِ [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]{4}[/FONT]
[SIZE=-1][Shakir 113:4] And from the evil of those who blow on knots,[/SIZE]
وَمِنْ شَرِّ حَاسِدٍ إِذَا حَسَدَ [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]{5}[/FONT]
[SIZE=-1][Shakir 113:5] And from the evil of the envious when he envies.[/SIZE]

It's just a prayer for refuge from evil. It just implies that those who blow on knots are somehow evil. It doesn't say or imply that they have awesome magical powers.

And it's just a prayer, intended to be said during salah. It's not intended to be a lecture on what is evil. Taken in such a literal way, you'd have to think that the night itself is evil too, per verse 3. Which is of course would be an absurdity, since the night isn't some conscious entity capable of doing evil by itself.

 

[SanFrank]

To put sura 113 (and 114 for that matter) into another perspective, consider this rendition when the word "alfalaqi" is taken as "hell".

113.1 Say: "I seek refuge from Hell's lord." (The author announces that he seeks refuge from Satan, i.e. “allah”)
113.2 “From evil that he created.” (Refuge from Satan’s evil)
113.3 “And from evil flowing when darkness overspread (from the) pit.” (The opening of the abyss)
113.4 “And from evil, the evil whisper in the bond." (The binding of Satan)
113.5 “And from evil, the envies, when he envied.” (The envy of Satan)

114.1 Say: "I seek refuge from the people's lord." (The author announces that he seeks refuge from Satan, i.e. “allah”)
114.2 "The people's king." (Refuge from the king of the people)
114.3 "The people's god." (Refuge from the god of the people)
114.4 "From evil, the whisperer, the devil.” (Refuge from Satan)
114.5 "Whom he whispers in the people's heart." (Refuge from Satan’s temptation)
114.6 "From the jinn and the people." (Refuge from the people possessed by the demons)

Notice that the people's god is the same god that whispers or blows. I would venture that muslims inadvertently tie their own knots, without knowing it. Is that possible?

 

[Rationalt]

To put sura 113 (and 114 for that matter) into another perspective, consider this rendition when the word "alfalaqi" is taken as "hell".

113.1 Say: "I seek refuge from Hell's lord." (The author announces that he seeks refuge from Satan, i.e. “allah”)
113.2 “From evil that he created.” (Refuge from Satan’s evil)
113.3 “And from evil flowing when darkness overspread (from the) pit.” (The opening of the abyss)
113.4 “And from evil, the evil whisper in the bond." (The binding of Satan)
113.5 “And from evil, the envies, when he envied.” (The envy of Satan)

114.1 Say: "I seek refuge from the people's lord." (The author announces that he seeks refuge from Satan, i.e. “allah”)
114.2 "The people's king." (Refuge from the king of the people)
114.3 "The people's god." (Refuge from the god of the people)
114.4 "From evil, the whisperer, the devil.” (Refuge from Satan)
114.5 "Whom he whispers in the people's heart." (Refuge from Satan’s temptation)
114.6 "From the jinn and the people." (Refuge from the people possessed by the demons)

Notice that the people's god is the same god that whispers or blows. I would venture that muslims inadvertently tie their own knots, without knowing it. Is that possible?

Is there any basis to render alfalaqi as hell?.

Also "refuge from" is incorrect.Refuge with or seek with is what all the translators arrived at.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

It doesn't.

That it's forbidden to try out magic does in no way imply that magic would actually have to work. There's no inconsistency in forbidding it even if we postulate that it doesn't work.

Islam also holds that praying to idols "doesn't work", but still it's forbidden to do so.

The connection you make between some practice being forbidden and that practice having to have actual power is an arbitrary one, not following logically in any way.

That's the position I take. I don't believe biblical rejection of various forms of divination and the like necessitates that such stuff works, only that it has no place in Judaism and Christianity.

I think one of the big reasons it's condemned is because a general thrust of Biblical thought (and I'd assume Qu'ranic thought as well) is that the people of God ought to trust in God rather than on powers/charms/magics/whateverhaveyou; that God is the only Almighty, the only Power, the only Ultimate, etc.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[SanFrank]

Is there any basis to render alfalaqi as hell?.

Also "refuge from" is incorrect.Refuge with or seek with is what all the translators arrived at.

Dictionary of Qur'an by Mannan Omar, Pg 434, Falaq is the "plain appearing of a truth having been once dubious" which others seem to shorten as "dawn". Also means Hell, hidden and manifest evil.

• Since the sura deals with good vs evil, it is only fitting that the word should be understood as hell.
• The sura is at the end of the qur'an allowing the author to fully disclose or (make plain what is dubious) the truth about "allah".
• the word "falaq" appears this one time in the entire qur'an (i may be wrong on this point)

Bi or Ba can be taken as "from". Birabbi is "from the lord"

 

[AskTheFamily]

You know what's funny, out of the 15-20 problems I have with Quran, I don't think any are from anti-islam sites. Everything they bring up is easily refuted.

I never seen the problems I have presented by anyone.

 

[SanFrank]

You know what's funny, out of the 15-20 problems I have with Quran, I don't think any are from anti-islam sites. Everything they bring up is easily refuted.

I never seen the problems I have presented by anyone.

Would you list all of them here. I remember your issues with blowing knots and morality but some of the other issues were on Paul's words. It would help to list just the qur'anic problems.

 

[AskTheFamily]

I will post them all on one topic once I'm done discussing them all on Islamic forums. Over here, it's putting all pressure on JJwhite, with no one else to respond. Once I got argument, counter argument, counter counter argument, I will write it all up (all the reasons).

I will also then present that to my family while telling them I no longer believe.

 

[AskTheFamily]

One issue was resolved just now.