The Bereans

[Fireinfolding]

Also its interesting that they of Judaea knew not Paul by face as the others. And it was (they) who had question regarding this circumcision issue.

So The Judaeans (themselves) would not be settled in their question UNTIL this question be submitted to the apostles who were BEFORE Paul (I am just so LOVING this now!!!)

How could I have missed this!?

And for the sake of the gospel did they did just that (because the Judaens requested this of them).

Works for me

Others were just subverting them with WORDS (that which was not by them)

Then we see James (elsewhere) listening to everything and giving His sentence (after hearing all) and concluded with to this agrees the prophets, seemed good to all (then).

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What is that? Is that bowing down to worship a mere mortal? Don't you know you're to reserve that for the LORD?

Typical RC apologetics

Reve 22:8 And I John, the one hearing and beholding these things.
And when I hear and behold, I fall to worship before the feet of the Messenger, the one showing to me these-things.
9 And He is saying to me "be thou seeing no!
A fellow bond-servant of thee I am and of the brothers of thee, the prophets and of the ones keeping the words of the scroll, this.
To the God worship thou!"

Anywho, for those really interested in an in depth study of Acts 17:11, I created a greek study thread just for that purpose

http://www.christianforums.com/t7585054/#post58300195
Acts 17:11 greek verse study only

 

[Fireinfolding]

Jerm 28:8 The prophets that have been before me and before thee of old prophesied both against many countries, and against great kingdoms, of war, and of evil, and of pestilence.

Seems to be a good patern which can be shown beforehand too

 

[MKJ]

I disagree.

This is virtually the definition of Sola Scriptura. See post 262.

What Paul said was regarded as accountable. The Rule embraced in the norming of such was Scripture. That IS Sola Scriptura.





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I don't think it is the same, though perhaps it should be. The Bereans didn't just accept that Christ was who Paul said. They also accepted the authority of the Church to produce the New Testament among other things.

However, if you want to strictly accept that version of Scriptural norming, that allows for the Church to make authoritative teachings apart from what is actually contained directly in the text, you simply aren't saying anything new. Catholicism and Orthodoxy won't have a problem with that.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Jerm 28:8 The prophets that have been before me and before thee of old prophesied both against many countries, and against great kingdoms, of war, and of evil, and of pestilence.

Seems to be a good patern which can be shown beforehand too

Which begs the question, what is the difference between a prophet and teacher

Matt 24:11 `And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray;
12 and because of the abounding of the lawlessness, the love of the many shall become cold;
13 but he who did endure to the end, he shall be saved;

2Peter 2:1 There became yet also False Prophets in the people, as also in ye shall be False Teachers, whoany shall be carrying in sects of destruction.
And the One buying them, Owner/Master/despothn <1203> disowning, bringing on them swift destruction.
[Jeremiah 14:14,15/Matt 24:11/Jude 1:4/Reve 6:10]

 

[Gregory Thompson]

My main perception of Josiah's mini essay on Norming is that it does not exist . because it calims to be not arbitrary . but all people are arbitrary . so it cannot exist or be connected with reality except as a robot .

 

[LinuxUser]

Upload? That makes no sense and does not address my reply to you.

meant uphold.

 

[LinuxUser]

But He makes a valid and important point.
And his point includes ANY denomination that
does not rely on Scripture.. I am hoping that
the ones you mention do indeed rely on God's Words
for proper doctrine.. ALL Scripture IS profitable for such..
after all.
If we have no plumb line, we DO end up with strange doctrine.
it only follows, doesnt it?
...
Anyhow, that's what I saw.

Those two don't

 

[Fireinfolding]

Jesus said this...

John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

But also says this...

John 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Likewise Abraham to the rich man here...

Luke 16:31 If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


So Jesus (he who is raised from the dead) is expounding """the things"" (of himself) out of the law and the prophets that they can believe ...

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Saying "None other things" (here)

Acts 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

"Those things" (which God shewed) by the same again (here)

Acts 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.


So they are searching the scripture to see whether "those things" (be so) again (here)

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

He likewise says, we write, "none other things" then what ye read or acknowledge (here)

2Cr 1:13 For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end;

Which is of that Jesus spake likewise...

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

So likewise the same out of them (persuading others of Him) here...

Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

Likewise convincing others (not of themselves) but Him (showing themselves true to Christ)

Acts 18:28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.


God bless

 

[Fireinfolding]

Which begs the question, what is the difference between a prophet and teacher

Matt 24:11 `And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray;
12 and because of the abounding of the lawlessness, the love of the many shall become cold;
13 but he who did endure to the end, he shall be saved;

2Peter 2:1 There became yet also False Prophets in the people, as also in ye shall be False Teachers, whoany shall be carrying in sects of destruction.
And the One buying them, Owner/Master/despothn <1203> disowning, bringing on them swift destruction.
[Jeremiah 14:14,15/Matt 24:11/Jude 1:4/Reve 6:10]

Those who draw others after themselves, which testify of themselves. Theres more then that ofcourse given various examples we have in scripture.

God bless you

 

[razeontherock]

They used Scripture, yes, but how will you support the claim that they used Scripture alone?

According to the very passage you cite, they laid 'burden' upon the faithful with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Notice that they do not say 'in accordance with Scripture, you must follow these necessary things'.

Acts 15
28For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

What significance does "things strangled" have to us today?

 

[Tzaousios]

Those two don't

Which ones might those be and how? Please, do tell.

 

[razeontherock]

As well, there is no way to get a sola scriptura approach out of this. The Bereans did not go on to tell Paul that unless what he said was already contined in the OT they would reject it - they accepted the new information he had for them, and his authority to give it. And the more strict types of "Bible only" Christians simply can get no help here. It is clearly not dealing with the kinds of claims they make, unless they want to reject pretty much all specifically Christian Scriptures.

I humbly urge you to reconsider, as well as to take a closer look at post #289, which is the very bedrock of my Faith. These Bereans did exactly what you said they didn't! You see, Paul's teaching was nothing new; it had been hidden from ages and for generations, and was only revealed in Christ Jesus, our Lord.

There was no new information, and the authority was (and is) G-d Himself, confirmed by no less than Moses, and also everyone before and since.

 

[Fireinfolding]

I humbly urge you to reconsider, as well as to take a closer look at post #289, which is the very bedrock of my Faith. These Bereans did exactly what you said they didn't! You see, Paul's teaching was nothing new; it had been hidden from ages and for generations, and was only revealed in Christ Jesus, our Lord.

There was no new information, and the authority was (and is) G-d Himself, confirmed by no less than Moses, and also everyone before and since.

Yes! Amen! Shown in both of these...

Acts 8:34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

Acts 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

Acts 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:


God bless you brother

 

[Thekla]

What significance does "things strangled" have to us today?

The quantity of blood left in the meat (slit/drain is a cleaner way to slaughter, as fewer pathogens* are transmitted through the meat).

* the degree of trauma before and at slaughter affects the meat in other ways, too; traumatic slaughter (like strangling) is not only 'inhumane', but effects the adrenaline load in the flesh.

 

[razeontherock]

So yet again, G-d reveals both higher knowledge, and concern for our welfare!? I'll have to try to remember this example, as these 2 issues seem to be high priority concerns among unbelievers who are drawn to discuss the Lord ...

 

[Thekla]

So yet again, G-d reveals both higher knowledge, and concern for our welfare!? I'll have to try to remember this example, as these 2 issues seem to be high priority concerns among unbelievers who are drawn to discuss the Lord ...

Absolutely !!



For example, incense has been used in services at the Temple since the git-go.

I read a scientific study on the properties of frankincense and myrrh (published aprox. 10 years ago) that found both act as germ-killers (can't recall if it was specifically bacteria, viruses, or both). IIRC, myrrh is the stronger of the two ... Consider that incense was (and still is) used for services where many people are gathering (transmission crucible ) and for purification (see Tobit, and the use to purify the Temple).

Trust God

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Catholicism and Orthodoxy won't have a problem with that.

You're new here....

The RCC, EOC (and generally Catholics and Orthodox - as well as the LDS and Mormons) are PASSIONATELY opposed to Sola Scriptura, more than almost anything else in Christian theology or elsewhere. Keep reading the threads on this topic, you'll see.





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[Fireinfolding]

True, scriptures are utilized to prove selves over Christ

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I asked you how you will support the claim that Scripture alone was used in Acts 15:15-19.

Quote anything in the verses that says something else was used as the norma normans? And if you desire to uphold the RCC position, where it states that whatever a teacher says is to be embraced with docility (rather than held accountable) AND that the appropriate norma normans is Catholic Tradition? Is Catholic Tradition mentioned by name? Is it quoted verbatim? If not, then were do you support that some OTHER rule is being employed in Acts 15:15-19 and that specifically, it is current RCC "Tradition?"





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