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Should Christians touch?

Apr 15, 2009
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Are you a mail order ordained Reverand, Is it or is it not a sexual act, there is no sexual acts permitted outside of marriage end of story, Its an addiction that is so powerful, even good Reverands can't get free so they tell you its not a sin, so they can feel better about themselves. take every thought and hold it captive to Christ, stop feeding your lustful heart impure thoughts and this addiction will go right away.......dear God help us all when Reverands are telling people they can lust and commit sexual sins by themselves and its not a sin:prayer:

Excuse me, but can you demonstrate that the bible says sexual acts period rather than sexual acts with other persons?
 
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dayhiker

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Ya. I've read the Greek Lexicons as well. I just don't see how history backs up the definition.

p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }a:link { color: rgb(0, 0, 255); } From American heritage Dictionary at Bartleby.com Bartleby.com: Great Books Online -- Quotes, Poems, Novels, Classics and hundreds more
SYLLABICATION: for·ni·cate
ETYMOLOGY: Late Latin fornicr, fornict-, from fornix, fornic-, vault, vaulted cellar, brothel.

Harper’s Latin Dictionary, 1879
This page has been taken down so its not there any more.


But you can go to your library and check out old dictionaries. Here's a few.


p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; } The New World of English Words: Or, a General Dictionary, Edward Phillips, Cambridge / Oxford, 1658
Fornication – whoredom.


A New English Dictionary, John Kersey, 1702
A harlot, or harlot; a lewd Woman that prostitutes her self for gain. …Whoredom, or fornication.
A Pronouncing Dictionary of the English Language, 1796, p. 37
Whoredom, fornication


[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]The Century Dictionary and Cyclopedia, 1887, p.2340[/FONT]
[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]a brothel, so called because generally situated in underground vaults; lit. an arch, a vault; see fornicate. To have illicit sexual intercourse; said of an unmarried person.[/FONT]


[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]So when the KJV was written when one went to a dictionary to see the meaning of fornication one would believe it to mean prostitution.[/FONT]


Composition of Scientific Words: A manual of methods and a lexicon of materials for the practice of logotechnics, Brown, 1956, p.[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif] 98[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif] [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]fornix [FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]- [/FONT][FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]arch, vault, brothels in an underground vault[/FONT][/FONT]


[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]The World Book Dictionary, 1971, p.828[/FONT]
[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]brothel; (originally) arch, vault (because brothels were often situated in underground vaults)[/FONT]


[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]Fornication being defined as consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other" is a fairly new definition. Its found in this Dictionary without the word consensual. New Webster’s Dictionary of the English Language: Modern Desk Edition, 1976, p. 201
[/FONT]



Yet, some dictionaries of our time still keep the history of the word.

[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]Slang and Euphemism, Spears, 1982, p. 152, “fornix”[/FONT]

  1. [FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]Fornix 1. a brothel, said to be named for the arches of public buildings in Rome where prostitutes or solicitation took place. [from Latin] 2. fornication.[/FONT]


Merriam Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary, 1997, p. 459, “fornicate”
f[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]ornicare – to have intercourse with prostitutes. fr. L fornic-, fornix arch, vault, brothal[/FONT]


[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif]When we look at the origin of the word fornication we fine that it comes from the Latin. In the 4th century Jerome translated the Greek Bible in Latin. When he came to the Greek work proneia family of words he chose the Latin word fornix. Fornix was one of 26 slang words for prostitution. Fornix meant vault or arch. Prostitutes in Rome used to stand in arch doorways to invite their johns into their basement rooms below. Early Roman Christians used fornix to mean brothel.
Arcade Dictionary of Word Origins, Ayto, 1990, p. 237, “fornication”, Merriam Webster’s Dictionary of Law, 1996, p. 201, Encarta World English Dictionary, 1999, p. 701
[/FONT]


Fornicatrix – prostitute



Even if we read the KJV we find that many of the words assoctiated with porneia are consistently transtated harlot.
Take the Lexicons on pornay
p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }

Louw & Nida – A woman ... prostitute.


Strong - AV-harlot 8, harlot 4; 12


1) a woman who sells her body for sexual uses
1a) a prostitute, a harlot, one who yields herself to defilement for the sake of gain
1b) any woman indulging in unlawful sexual intercourse, whether for gain or for lust



Thayer – gives the root of this family of Greek words as “to sell.”

  • a woman who sells her body for sexual use. A prostitute, a harlot, one who yields herself to defilement for the sake of gain.
  • Any woman indulging in unlawful sexual intercourse, whether for gain or for lust.
  • Metaphorically – idolatress.


Wigram-Green – Prostitute, harlot, harlot


Pornos refers to a male prostitute.



If you want to see what porneia is in Greek today just got to translate.google.com


If you want to know if I'm right about the Greek moral writers, you will have to find one that lists porneia as a wrong. I don't know of one that lists it. You know I can't prove a negative.
 
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Jul 26, 2011
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Excuse me, but can you demonstrate that the bible says sexual acts period rather than sexual acts with other persons?
It really wouldn't matter what the bible says, follow the Rev. you will find out if he was correct or not, soon enough, we all have but one short span of time, "do as thou wilst"
 
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Rev.Ross

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Dear Prophecy,
I do not teach "do as thou wilst". First I do not speak King James English, secondly I follow Jesus Christ in the freedom He has given us. I do not believe in sex outside of marriage (by that I mean intercourse), The Bible does not address masturbation, as it does lut. I am against lust, but not masturbation. Masturbation is just a physical act which prevents HIV,STD's, unwanted pregnancy, and affairs. Thanks, Rev. Ross
 
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It really wouldn't matter what the bible says, follow the Rev. you will find out if he was correct or not, soon enough, we all have but one short span of time, "do as thou wilst"

Actually, no, if you have a strong assertion to make and believe it is scriptural I'd like to hear it. If not, then please don't point fingers.
 
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AgapeGrace

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It doesn't say you cannot touch in the bible. I've studied it and there is no where that says that at all. It says not to lust after a person particularly if you are in a relationship with someone else.


Matthew 5:27-30
This is about Adultery which is defined as:

sexual relations between a married person and someone who is not their spouse.
Thi comes from the greek "Moicheia"

the story about Onam is about disobedience.

I'm yet to find something that actually stops you from masturbating.
 
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contango

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It doesn't say you cannot touch in the bible. I've studied it and there is no where that says that at all. It says not to lust after a person particularly if you are in a relationship with someone else.

Which goes right back to what many people have already said about the two usually going together. If you can touch while thinking of nothing more erotic than your weekly shopping list then you're probably OK. I suspect most people do indulge a lustful thought or two while they touch, which is where the problems appear.
 
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dayhiker

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Each side gets to state how they view it. That helps others thing thru why they believe what they believe.

As for us coming to a unified position. Nope. But people were even unified in views in NT times. So I don't know why we would be today!
 
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armyman_83

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Why? Not being Protestant, I don't have to find everything that I think about stuff inside the Bible. It's hard to get to the doctrine of the Trinity or the doctrine of the two natures of Christ, which are vital for our salvation, by looking only at the Bible.


Perhaps you should then question such doctrines? Be they of man, or of God.
 
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technofox

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I can't help, but to respond to this. Personally I think it is up to your own personal convictions as to whether you should touch. The thing is too many people are indoctrinated into thinking one way or another, why don't you just read the Bible, pray, and ask for God's guidance?

Masturbation in general is a healthy activity overall; especially for men due to the fact that our prostate's have no other way to drain its fluids except through some form of sex that leads to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. Basically there have been proven studies that guys who touch 3 times a week (or more) will reduce their risk of prostate cancer significantly versus those who don't. Overall I know guys who do and do not touch for various reasons, including those who have cited the spilling of seed, which is technically disobedience not masturbation.

For women masturbation can help relieve stress, hormones, and has other health benefits. It may prevent a woman (or even men) from having pre-marital sex, which is a whole other topic on its own.

As for myself, I was in a sexless marriage which thankfully I am out of. If it was not for masturbation, I am not sure what would have happened. Seriously masturbation prevented me from being tempted to sleep with another woman while I was in a terrible marriage. So keep that benefit in mind as well.

For the question on how far to go in regards to intimacy, well you are an adult and capable of making your own decisions, based on the God given conscience that you have. God will let you make your decisions, just remember though that there are consequences. Sex in generally changes the nature of any relationship regardless if you are married or not. Personally sex should only be out of love, not lust or some form of sin in my opinion. If you need further guidance to sex and relationships a few good books are:

Love & Respect
Boundaries and Dating
Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis - he touches on marriage, sex, and relationships towards the end of the book, but overall a must read for all Christians.
 
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iambren

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Wow, TechnoFox, a lot of wisdom packed concisely in your post. It's interesting that I share your views on mb AND I too was in a sexless marriage. I wonder if it helped illuminate on this topic.

Beyond sexual, didn't you find it maddening and hurtful to love someone, to have given your all, to envision a sure future with her but she keeps you at arms length to not wholly love her. I remember the deep pain of rejection where I retired to the bathroom to mb with my heart breaking. Yes, this is off-topic but it was so nice to talk with someone who has gone down the same road. May God bless you in your future and with someone who will completely love you. A woman is a great replacement for mb, yes?
 
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technofox

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iambren said:
Wow, TechnoFox, a lot of wisdom packed concisely in your post. It's interesting that I share your views on mb AND I too was in a sexless marriage. I wonder if it helped illuminate on this topic.

Beyond sexual, didn't you find it maddening and hurtful to love someone, to have given your all, to envision a sure future with her but she keeps you at arms length to not wholly love her. I remember the deep pain of rejection where I retired to the bathroom to mb with my heart breaking. Yes, this is off-topic but it was so nice to talk with someone who has gone down the same road. May God bless you in your future and with someone who will completely love you. A woman is a great replacement for mb, yes?

Yes it was maddening and hurtful. The lack of teamwork, love, sex, and other intimacy really was heart breaking. My ex-wife essentially destroyed my belief of waiting until marriage before having sex.

I waited until we were married before engaging with her in sexual activities, but after being a sexless marriage, I find it hard to even consider waiting until marriage again. To me sex in general should only be done in a loving relationaship and nothing else. I don't condone sleeping around, but neither would I be supportive of someone remaining in a marriage like your's and mine if their spouse is not making any attempt to make the marriage work. Overall I would prefer waiting until marriage, but I am no longer dedicated to that ideal as I once was and that I think leaves me jaded when I see or hear people talking about waiting until marriage without the realization that they too could end up in a sexless marriage themselves.

Was your wife abusive like mine?

As for a woman being a great replacement over mb, I would have to say it depends on the woman ;-P
 
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iambren

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You know that your advice would be shot down by 99% of the women on this board but I certainly understand. What kills me is the Christian girl who takes NO thought whatsoever about how she will be a sexual partner in marriage. Then after the fancy wedding and the guy locked in she all of a sudden comes to the notion that she doesn't like sex after all, leaving the guy high and dry. SO cruel and so unChristian.

My ex was not abusive physically but I remember asking her "Why do you hate me so much?". I think she resented the sexual pressures marriage laid on her so it came out as resentment towards ME. Post-divorce we have gotten along well, mostly warm,supportive friendship. The killer is that teases me to want to be affectionate and sexual that hits a wall. It's like loving someone that's encased in a glass shell. Still healing from this.

All this talk, heavy hurt and issues, makes the issue of mb to be SO SO insignificant. I would challenge ANY man on these boards to be married to a woman, love her, see her walk around with a towel etc and NOT mb because she was a rejector. God didn't build us that way---which is why I'm single.
 
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technofox

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iambren said:
You know that your advice would be shot down by 99% of the women on this board but I certainly understand. What kills me is the Christian girl who takes NO thought whatsoever about how she will be a sexual partner in marriage. Then after the fancy wedding and the guy locked in she all of a sudden comes to the notion that she doesn't like sex after all, leaving the guy high and dry. SO cruel and so unChristian.

My ex was not abusive physically but I remember asking her "Why do you hate me so much?". I think she resented the sexual pressures marriage laid on her so it came out as resentment towards ME. Post-divorce we have gotten along well, mostly warm,supportive friendship. The killer is that teases me to want to be affectionate and sexual that hits a wall. It's like loving someone that's encased in a glass shell. Still healing from this.

All this talk, heavy hurt and issues, makes the issue of mb to be SO SO insignificant. I would challenge ANY man on these boards to be married to a woman, love her, see her walk around with a towel etc and NOT mb because she was a rejector. God didn't build us that way---which is why I'm single.

Yeah, mine wasn't physically abusive either, just emotionally. As for what you have stated about the 99% of woman on these forums shooting down my advice, you are probably right or close to it. It seems to me that some Christian woman do not take the necessity of sex in marriage enough to know how damaging the lack of it can be to a marriage. Corinthians (I don't remeber which one) mentions that we are not to withhold ourselves lest we be tempted, basically it is wrong to withhold sex from our spouse. This passage was discussed during my marriage counseling when I was married to her, which she flatly disregarded, because it didn't benefit her in shape or form in her mind. This is why women or men who profess their belief in Christ and withhold sex need to realize that withholding sex is equivalent to marrital suicide.

If someone doesn't believe me then they shouldn't be surprised when they find out their spouse started to delve into porn or going to prostatutes or having an affair or end up in divorce. The lack of sex in marriage, except for an agreed upon time, can cause a brother or sister in Christ to stumble into sin; this is why God addressed sex in marriage in the bible so explicitly, because he knew that the lack of it would cause trouble for those who believe in Him.

Personally I don't care if the 99% of women on this forum disagree with me about mb and/or withholding of sex in marriage is wrong. I know what scripture says about withholding of sex and the fact that God never addressed mb in the Bible as some people claim. I am very tempted to attack their reading comprehension skills; however, that will not be a loving way to debate the issue.

Mb in my point of view is the graceful way to stay celibate in the face of temptation, not to mention the aforementioned health benefits. Only compulsive mb would ever be a problem (e.g. masturbating at work or in a public restroom, etc and not being able to stop masturbating throughout the day). In the end as I have stated earlier, I believe it is up to each individual's conscience.

God bless you brother, because you and I have been through hell, and He delivered us from it. I don't blame you one bit for staying single, I on the other hand started dating and this time I am far wiser than I was before. If I see major red flags, the relationship will be over if they are not addressed promptly. This was a tough lesson that I had to learn the hard way and hopefully, Lord willing of course, I will marry again and that marriage will last a lifetime and truly be a loving one.
 
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Larry Mondello

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What kills me is the Christian girl who takes NO thought whatsoever about how she will be a sexual partner in marriage. Then after the fancy wedding and the guy locked in she all of a sudden comes to the notion that she doesn't like sex after all, leaving the guy high and dry. SO cruel and so unChristian.
.....

All this talk, heavy hurt and issues, makes the issue of mb to be SO SO insignificant. I would challenge ANY man on these boards to be married to a woman, love her, see her walk around with a towel etc and NOT mb because she was a rejector. God didn't build us that way---which is why I'm single.

It seems to me that some Christian woman do not take the necessity of sex in marriage enough to know how damaging the lack of it can be to a marriage. Corinthians (I don't remeber which one) mentions that we are not to withhold ourselves lest we be tempted, basically it is wrong to withhold sex from our spouse. This passage was discussed during my marriage counseling when I was married to her, which she flatly disregarded, because it didn't benefit her in shape or form in her mind. This is why women or men who profess their belief in Christ and withhold sex need to realize that withholding sex is equivalent to marrital suicide.
Very true.
The verse is I Corinthians 7.
Refers to withholding sex as "defrauding" a spouse.

If someone doesn't believe me then they shouldn't be surprised when they find out their spouse started to delve into porn or going to prostatutes or having an affair or end up in divorce.

The lack of sex in marriage, except for an agreed upon time, can cause a brother or sister in Christ to stumble into sin; this is why God addressed sex in marriage in the bible so explicitly, because he knew that the lack of it would cause trouble for those who believe in Him.

Good points.
Started a thread on another board:
"Long-time refused and considering leaving."
So the title showed what I was considering (briefly).
Talk About Marriage - View Single Post - My long distance marriage...



Mb in my point of view is the graceful way to stay celibate in the face of temptation, not to mention the aforementioned health benefits. Only compulsive mb would ever be a problem (e.g. masturbating at work or in a public restroom, etc and not being able to stop masturbating throughout the day). In the end as I have stated earlier, I believe it is up to each individual's conscience.

Dittos.

I MB frequently. Tried to stop, but it's hard.
MB'd a lot in my 20s during times of frustration and unable to get dates.

Will admit I used to MB to porn, but gave that up almost 2 years ago.
Knew it was wrong, even the "light" and "regular" stuff that I viewed, but with the Lord's help, won't ever go back to it.

Won't recommend guys MB but think that's preferable to MB'ing to porn, which is a snare.
 
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Larry Mondello

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Lemme add:
I MB'd a lot in my 20s, a lonely single guy who seemed invisible to Good Christian women....
Couldn't get many dates and once I got some dates, rarely got second or third dates.... though was told was "good looking" even into my 40s...

So got real frustrated thinking God had "forgotten" about me and my pledge to live "sexually responsible" like a semi-virgin @19 in college when I became of faith and repented over some sex I had @17.... a big regret...

Felt terribly guilty about MB'ing in my early 20s.... but later read statements from Christian leaders like Dr. James Dobson saying it wasn't necessarily a sin...


Here's something I wouldn't recommend a guy doing in his MB:
@26 when dating this 30 y.o. virgin, one night alone, MB'd and fantasized about ending her virginity....

Thought God "judged" me for sexually desiring her -- I DID desire her but never made any sexual moves... thought I was a real gentleman toward Christian women, the ones I dated in my late 20s....
Never pressed them for sex, though looking back, I had opportunities.....

Feared the fantasizing "jinxed" our relationship, which she ended (against my choice) shortly after.
My first adult relationship for a guy who hadn't had a lot of dating experience, it devastated me and I called in sick at work and used boxes of kleenex.... Where was God?

Looking back, I realize the ending likely had nothing to do with my thoughts, and I never told her about that.
And think God understands us singles and the struggles we endured when we see others in loving relationships that seem only a dream to us...

God made sex, after all, and called it good. He also made us, and like it is written, was tempted "in every way..." which I think would include sexual thoughts... so I think he understands what we go through.... especially when we live with spouses who don't allow us access....
 
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airfro14

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For those that have mentioned that there are professionals that state masturbation is/can be good for you, there are just as many professionals (as is the case with any debate) that sit on the other side of the fence. For example:

Dr. David Horrobin, M.D. and Ph.D. from Oxford University, states:

"The amount of zinc in sperm is such that one [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] may get rid of all the zinc that can be absorbed from the intestines in one day. This has a number of consequences. Unless the amount lost is replaced by an increased dietary intake, repeated [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] may lead to a real zinc deficiency with various problems developing, including impotence.
"It is even possible, given the importance of zinc for the brain, that 19th century moralists were correct when they said that repeated masturbation could make one mad!"—Zinc (Vitabooks: St. Albans, Vermont, 1981), p. 8.

Carl C. Pfeiffer, Ph.D., M.D.,
"We hate to say it, but in a zinc-deficient adolescent, sexual excitement and excessive masturbation might precipitate insanity."—Zinc and Other Micro-nutrients (Keats: New Canaan, Conn., 1978), p. 45.


As far as whether it is possible to touch without lusting, some say they can and its not my place to judge either way. Personally, I think its inviting temptation and would much rather let 'nature take its course' until I get married.
 
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LinkH

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Well, after I said it was wrong for him to do it I did tell him he should talk to his male friends at church about it since he may get a better point of view from them. Since I don't want to be a nagging girlfriend. The thing is, I need to know if it's wrong to touch? and where it says in the bible about it.

I haven't read all the posts, so this is semi-blind.

The Bible doesn't directly address masturbation as far as I know. Some might disagree, though.

The Old Testament doesn't mention masturbation. I suppose some could say that is what was going on in the story of Onan. The Jews and the patriarchs had a custom, which would be written as law in the Law God gave to Moses. If a man died without descendants, his brother or close relative was to marry his widow and raise up a child in his name. Judah had a son who was wicked, so the Lord slew him. The young brother, Onan, took Tamar and was to 'raise up seed unto his brother' by having that first child with her.

Well, apparently Onan didn't mind having sex with Tamar, but he didn't want to have a child for his departed brother. So he spilled his seed on the ground. This was probably 'coitus interruptus' rather than masturbation. But who knows? It could have been both.

So in the middle ages, celibate priestly theologians developed a belief around this that masturbation was Onanism and that it was wrong for a man to spill his seed for non-reproductive purposes. The Bible doesn't directly teach this. It is derived from theological reasoning about passages like this and the purpose of sex in marriage.

This type of argument against masturbation is the same type of reasoning used in forbidden condoms and birth control in general. The Roman Catholic teaching relies heavily on church tradition, and so relies on this whole theological tradition related to the purpose of sex for their doctrine. Protestants tend to be 'scripture only' in their approach to such matters. Neither birth control nor masturbation are directly forbidden. So some Protestants are not against masturbation.

Now some Protestants are against masturbation for a number of reasons. Some people think it is impossible to touch without having lustful thoughts about another person. Other people disagree. I guess this could be a case of someone applying their own personal experience to others. There are numerous other arguments against masturbation.

Some people could view the practice as akin to a nocturnal emission, which wouldn't be sinful. Others see it more like a forbidden sex act.

I've encountered another line of reasoning against masturbation, too. The idea is that 'malakos' could refer to masturbators as well as certain homosexuals. I don't buy this, but it is one opinion that I have read.

In I Corinthians 6, Paul writes of a long list of sinners that they will not 'inherit the kingdom of God." There are two words there that are translated in a number of ways. The KJV says 'abusers of themselves with mankind' for the Greek arsenokoite and 'effeminite' for malakos.

Arsenokoite means 'man bedder.' It looks like the word might have been used because it is taken from words used in the Greek translation of that command not to lie with a man as one does with a woman. My guess is that this is a reference to that commandment from Leviticus.

The Grecco-Roman world distinguished in their thinking between the two types of participants in a homosexual act. The upper class free males, the virii of Rome, could do the arsenokoite thing and that could be considered, by some, to be somewhat socially acceptable. He could be the recipient of certain sexual acts, but not the giver of them. Lower status people, like slaves, could take the more servile role in these acts, but not the upper class person. It was considered degrading. We know both participants were sinning, but they probably didn't think of it that way.

Malakos is a bit more complicated. It has to do with being soft. I'll use the word 'softee' to refer to it. It can refer to the passive servile participate of a homosexual act, a catamite. But in Greek literature, it has a much broader use. A man could be called a 'softee' if he wore make-up or primped, or perhaps if he lacked discipline in certain areas. If a man plucked the hair out of his thighs, in one piece of literature, he would be considered a softee. (Of course, that could have been for homosexual purposes, too.) It seems like a lot of the uses had to do with things we would associate with being 'gay', but not everything.

Anyway, some have associated masturbating with being 'malakos'-- a softee. I am not sure if it was because this is something a catamite would do for an arsenokoite, and the logic is if he does it to himself, that's being a softee, too. Or maybe it has to do with the concept of a lack of sexual or moral discipline that comes with being a softee.

Whatever the case, in context, I am inclined to believe that Paul is talking about two types of homosexual behavior, especially since the Old Testament does not address the issue of masturbation as far as I know, or label it as sinful. I tend to view the 'fornication' restriction of Acts 15 as applying to sinful acts in Leviticus 18, for which Gentiles were driven out of the land, and ergo such actions are considered sinful for Gentiles. But if masturbation is not included among such sins, it would seem strange for Paul to suddenly spring that on everyone so unclearly in I Corinthians 6.
 
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