How some creationists pushed me away from christianity

[Oncedeceived]

Well, it's a pretty standard excuse that I've been hearing for years.

But it creates a false dichotomy in a way. And atheist like me would require pretty strong evidence to believe in God. But that would pretty much constitute proof, which would eliminate my choice in the matter. But it then seems that the only other alternative is absolutely nothing at all to try to convince me. But there's a lot of middle-ground; He would know exactly how much I would need to set me on the proper path while at the same time not being so much as to remove all doubt.

You got enough to convince you without over-riding your free will. Why don't I?

I don't know. It may be that you will later on.

Still waiting on that wrong number phone call...

Do you want that call?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Yes, the key word is gaining. But lets address the issue here:

You can honestly say that quality of life was better in the 1800's?

No.

I guess a better question would be, how do you define standard of living? Ethically? Health wise? Education wise? Safety wise? By infant mortality? By wealth? Because all of these have improved.

USW: The U.S. Wage Gap and the Decline of Manufacturing

I'm not sure I follow. Do you consider death as a positive or a negative? (or positive but negative for loved ones?)

I think I have been very clear in what I was saying. We as humans feel death is a negative when we lose a loved one even though we as Christians know they are going to a better place. God does not see death the way we humans do. He sees it as we are coming to our true home.

So if a child is spared from death, it's a happy occasion. But if the child had died, it would have simply been his time to go to heaven? It's a cop out.

No.

That website indicates that there were multiple ones the year the article was written. Aurora's happen all the time, but you just need a clear enough sky to see them. I think empirical evidence will work better than hearsay. What evidence would you like to provide? (I'm not sure what's changed atmospherically between now and 04 )

Whatever. Like I said you can take it or leave it.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Wait, so he claims things have improved, you show the numbers showing that things have improved (as far as GDP), but claim they show the opposite of improvement?

ETA: and which table are you getting your info from (this page, for reference: A History of the Standard of Living in the United States | Economic History Services)? I assume it's Table 1. But your 1973-1990 number isn't in there, and is way off. You also seem to be ignoring the annual growth rate, which is higher for 1973, 1990, and 1998 than it is for 1870, 1913, and 1950. Plus, the years covered in each increment is significantly shorter; 1913 to 1950 covers a much longer time than 1990 to 1998, yet the GDP increased by about the same amount. The biggest increase in annual growth is between 1950 and 1973, the era many suggest as the time when secularism/liberalism/what-have-you was on its biggest rise.

If it were true that secularism/w-h-y increased from the fifties until the early seventies what is it going down now and it didn't keep rising?

 

[Oncedeceived]

The fact that the information is old and that other people don't hardly see it in person much reminds me of a book I once read...

The fact that there is no other such articles except for that year was the significant point.

 

[docpotter]

People with hard hearts , and a skeptical nature will never see or feel God until they are totally defeated by the world , then they might .

 

[Non sequitur]

If it were true that secularism/w-h-y increased from the fifties until the early seventies what is it going down now and it didn't keep rising?

Recovery from the 2008 crash, caused by athesits?

Poor budgeting from the atheist U.S. leaders?

 

[Skaloop]

If it were true that secularism/w-h-y increased from the fifties until the early seventies what is it going down now and it didn't keep rising?

Because the secularism/liberalism/what-have-you of American society has little if anything to do with the GDP? Because GDP growth is not linear, and is subject to wanes and waxes? Because of the increase in evangelical, fundamentalist Christians? The continued reduction in the number of pirates? Increased internet usage?

I dunno. Why do you think it is going down now?

 

[Skaloop]

I don't know. It may be that you will later on.

But the longer I wait, the more it hardens my heart. So the later it comes, the less successful it will be.

Do you want that call?

Absolutely. If there's a God, and Jesus is His son who died for our sins, and by accepting Jesus as such (and all that entails) I am spared eternal damnation, then yes, a simple phone call that would almost certainly make the idea of God far more palatable and believable for me is a call I absolutely want.

 

[Simply_Amazing]

USW: The U.S. Wage Gap and the Decline of Manufacturing

So... Secularization has been increasing. (there really isn't a measurement, but if you'd like to provide the relevant statistics...) over America's history. Work quality has drastically improved... and then dropped off slightly over the last 20 years? It's much better than it was at the turn of the 20th century, and that's not going to change. (not to mention the improvement of equal rights and overall healthiness) Your point still hasn't been remotely made.

(FYI, even if your claim that quality of life has gone down is true, you'd still have to link this to secularization. You'd need prove of causation and not correlation or coincidence.)

I think I have been very clear in what I was saying. We as humans feel death is a negative when we lose a loved one even though we as Christians know they are going to a better place. God does not see death the way we humans do. He sees it as we are coming to our true home.

So... an earthquake kills thousands. One child survived unscathed in a situation where the odds say he almost certainly should have been killed. Would you call this a miracle?

Whatever. Like I said you can take it or leave it.

Like most subjective, anecdotal evidence, I chose to leave it.

 

[Greg1234]

Many Christians unknow Gods existence and become nonbelievers. You can claim they were simply not christian, but the truth is that they were at one point just like you.

Matthew 13

[bless and do not curse]

1The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.

[bless and do not curse]2And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.

[bless and do not curse]3And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

[bless and do not curse]4And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

[bless and do not curse]5Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

[bless and do not curse]6And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

[bless and do not curse]7And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

[bless and do not curse]8But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

[bless and do not curse]9Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

[bless and do not curse]10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

[bless and do not curse]11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

[bless and do not curse]12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

[bless and do not curse]13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

[bless and do not curse]14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

[bless and do not curse]15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

[bless and do not curse]16But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

[bless and do not curse]17For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

[bless and do not curse]18Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.​

Youre attempting to take simplify something highly complex. Notice for instance that the seeds didn't make the ground and environment. And that the ground stifles the seed. Of course, the standard retort is "evolutionary psychology" or something of that nature but it should be noted that everywhere Darwinism is cited, Creationism is already known to have an influence there.

God is not a someone but an idea people desperately want to be true.

Stop at people. Created.

 

[Catherineanne]

I really do not like sharing personal experiences due to the fact that they can be dismissed so readily and yet they are very personal to the one that has them. Regardless, I will tell you of one instance that gave me knowledge that God cares for each of us on a very personal level.

Background: My husband and I left our lives in another state so that our daughter would be closer to extended family. We were a little concerned about starting somewhere else and had been praying about it. We were hoping that God would give us some sort of sign that we were doing the right thing. It wasn't long that we started seeing the northern lights spread across the sky. It is pretty rare in this area, in fact few people have ever seen them. Cars were pulling over to stand and watch. We thought this might be the sign we were looking for.

So jump ahead some seven years later. My husband is a painter and he and I were going to a near by town to see if he could get some art sold. I had done some sculpting as well and we were in need of cash. We had been trying to live on art and I wasn't so sure we should be. (Wasn't giving us much of an income) So we tried all the places we thought might be interested and sold a few things but it was pretty much a disappointment. My mother-in-law and husband were in the front seat, while I sat rather dejected in the back. I was asking God what we should do and I remembered for some reason the time earlier when we saw the northern lights and how we felt it was a sign. I asked God that if we were doing the right thing to show me the Northern lights again. We were just leaving a small town and so when at first I saw a red haze I questioned if I was just seeing the lights from town. I even asked my husband if he thought the sky was turning red. He said he thought it was just the lights from the town. So I sat there a few more minutes still praying and then the sky just went crazy. Red and green swept across the sky. It was incredible. I couldn't believe my eyes. The lights continued until we pulled into our driveway and then just stopped.

I have no proof of this. It is one of those things that you can dismiss, but I am being perfectly honest here. It happened.

This is consistent with my experience of God. He uses the small things in our lives to convince us of his love for us. Looking back there will be a natural explanation for each one, because God is not interested in breaking the laws of nature, but because we know the context, we can see the hand of God, and we know.

This kind of experience will resonate with other believers, and leave non believers unconvinced. Pretty well the same as during the Lord's lifetime, really. And after many, many years of such experiences it is rather entertaining to be accused by unbelievers of having faith against reason, and against all evidence. The evidence is there.

 

[Catherineanne]

Yes. I do not think any information was learned about God in this story which is what asked for.

When people say that by doing X they gain more Understanding of God, Is it wrong of me to expect something from that word?

If i gain more understanding of a person, it should mean i know more about them, and i should be able to convey what i know to another.

I hope this is not a case of abusing words.

I gain more understanding of God by being a mother. I consider my relationship to him to be similar to that of myself and my daughter. If it is unthinkable for me to send her to her room for the rest of eternity, let alone suffer endless torment, in response to a minor misdemeanour, then it is ridiculous to have such a concept within my understanding of God.

Therefore, when the Bible talks of hell, it is not being literal but allegorical. And our relationship with God can then become one of love and understanding, rather than of crime and punishment.

And just in case I am wandering off into a theology all of my own, I can then check this with the teachings of my church, and with the person of Christ himself. Finding my interpretation to be sound on both counts, then I am happy to accept it.

 

[Catherineanne]

I probably have less knowledge than I should have,and I was thrown by what I would say was
a totally heretical interpretation of satan etc .

Nonsense.

Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;
To commit heresy, one must refuse to be corrected. A person who is ready to be corrected or who is unaware that what he has been saying is against Church teaching is not a heretic.
Finally, the doubt or denial involved in heresy must concern a matter that has been revealed by God and solemnly defined by the Church (for example, the Trinity, the Incarnation, the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the sacrifice of the Mass, the pope’s infallibility, or the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary).

The Great Heresies

There is no heresy in relation to interpretation of satan in Anglicanism. For that you would need a satanic church, with satanic dogmas.

 

[Catherineanne]

Just to briefly clear this small misunderstandin up (yes, it's a nitpick):

Agnostic: Thinks that knowing a god (exists) is impossible.

Atheist: Lacks belief in god(s). ("Strong atheism" could make the positive statement that "there is no god", but most of the atheists you'll find here are "weak atheists" who don't make that positive statement ((myself included))).

You are mistaken. These are relatively new concepts that atheists are trying to make into a definition, but it is not the received version. There is no such thing a weak atheism, for a start.

Lacking a belief in God - or anything else - does not make you an atheist. I am not an Allah atheist, or a Vishnu atheist. Such a suggestion is meaningless.

However, feel free to believe it if it makes you happier.

 

[Catherineanne]

The reason is because the person who does not believe in hell does not see any reason to be saved.

I do not believe in a literal hell fire, but there is certainly plenty of reason outside the fear of punishment to want a relationship with the Living God.

Having a relationship with the Living God for one thing. After that, if he chooses to send me to a lake of eternal fire, or to allow me to enter eternal joy, I really don't mind. Either is fine with me, for the sake of following the Lord.

 

[Catherineanne]

So anyways, can we get back to new knowledge that was gained about god from seeing the northern lights?

If that had happened to me, the new knowledge would be that although I knew in theory that our God is a personal God, with interest in each one of us, however small, the lights would have been a direct statement from him that he is interested in my life, and that I am safe in his hands.

In one way this is nothing new; we can read the same message in Psalm 23, but having Psalm 23 portrayed all the way across the sky in lights, just for you to see, is a lovely gift from God.

Several thousand other people probably saw those lights at the same time, but only those who had asked God for a sign would have been able to recognise exactly what they were seeing. That is how it works.

 

[Catherineanne]

You'd think God would at least stop his churches from dying. Anyone would think he enjoyed people getting the wrong idea so he could send them to Hell!

Rest assured, the Bride of Christ does not suffer from necrosis. Such a suggestion is unBiblical in the extreme.

 

[Catherineanne]

It means that you just aren't being receptive enough to God's message. Remember, the fault always lies with you.

Works theology; man effecting (or not) his own salvation by his own actions.

Good luck with that.

 

[Catherineanne]

Does he not care enough for other people when they ask for help and no help is forthcoming?

That is a very good question, and one that we have to wrestle with endlessly. It is all very well heaing about such things as a Christian being pulled out of an earthquake 2 weeks after it happens, and praising God, but what about the others who died? Do we really think they did not pray, or do we rather think that God ignored them?

And the answer is ... I haven't got a clue. I am sure they prayed, I am sure God heard them, and had compassion on them. I do not know why bad things happen to both good and bad people. It is part of the mystery of life. What I would say, however, is that if all Christians got to live a charmed life with no financial hardships, no unemployment, no sickness and no pain of any kind, then that would be a far worse kind of world to live in than one we have, where the rain falls equally on the righteous and the unrighteous.

 

[Catherineanne]

Does every Christian never doubt?

I get doubts all the time. Funnily enough I never doubt that God exists, but I do doubt whether he cares about me, or wants me in church.

My priest is very patient with this one; as often as I let him know that the doubts are there, he will patiently tell me once again that God does want me there, and I try to take his word for it.

It is very difficult to believe contrary to doubt. The best we can do is to say, 'Lord, I believe. Help thou my unbelief.' And then act as if we believe as much as we would want to; in my case by going to church in spite of those doubts, rather than allowing them to take control.