Abraham ?

[riverrat]

What were God's statutes and laws that Abraham kept as per Gen 26:5 ?

 

[St_Worm2]

What were God's statutes and laws that Abraham kept as per Gen 26:5 ?

Abraham obviously didn't have the Torah to obey, or even the 10 Commandments. What he did obey was the voice of God, everything God told him to do. Here are a few examples:

Genesis 12:1 & 4a - The Lord had said to Abram, “Leave your country, your people and your father’s household and go to the land I will show you". So Abram left, as the Lord had told him..............

Genesis 17 - Abraham obeyed God's command to be circumcised.

Genesis 22 - Abraham obeyed God's command to sacrifice his son, Isaac.

​

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - even more important than Abraham's obedience to God was his faith in Him. He believed God would do what He said He would do (Romans 4:20-21) and look what happened as a result:

“Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,
and he was called the friend of God"
James 2:23​

 

[Julian of York]

Fine answer!
I am also reminded of the Jews claiming Abraham as their "father" in the Book of John. Christ, who obviously had a personal relationship with Abraham, told the Jews that,if they were Abraham's children, they would NOT act towards Christ as they were. The Book of John also reminds us that In the beginning was the Word..and All things were made by Him. Therefore, any info Abraham needed,he could get directly from the Creator. Any information we receive about Spiritual or Religious matters must come from God's Word and no other source. Interestingly, the Bible says this about itself,"We have also a more sure word of prophecy.."
Did you know that this statement was in direct response to the Voice of God? What a Book!

Julian of York

 

[ministerfortson]

Fine answer!
I am also reminded of the Jews claiming Abraham as their "father" in the Book of John. Christ, who obviously had a personal relationship with Abraham, told the Jews that,if they were Abraham's children, they would NOT act towards Christ as they were. The Book of John also reminds us that In the beginning was the Word..and All things were made by Him. Therefore, any info Abraham needed,he could get directly from the Creator. Any information we receive about Spiritual or Religious matters must come from God's Word and no other source. Interestingly, the Bible says this about itself,"We have also a more sure word of prophecy.."
Did you know that this statement was in direct response to the Voice of God? What a Book!

Julian of York

It wasn't the Jews Jesus was talking to. Jesus was talking to the Pharisees, Sadduccees and Scribes. All of which happened to be Jews, but not all Jews were these three groups. Context is super important because a lot of replacement theology comes from taking things completely out of context and trying to say that Jesus was talking to all Jews.

Jesus was from the line of Judah and a Jew Himself. He was also talking about actions and not lineage. You need to understand the difference between Sperma and Ek in John 8, which is what you are referring to. Those Greek words have two different meanings.

Jesus said, "I know ye are Abraham's SPERMA (physical seed).
Jesus said, "Ye are EK (place from which actions originate) your father the devil."

A lot of the crap the comes out such as Serpent Seed Theology could be avoided with a little deeper research.

Serpent Seed: Debunked

 

[Ormly]

ministerfortson

Since we know Angels cannot procreate, who do you believe the "giants" were?

 

[Ormly]

Fine answer!
I am also reminded of . . . . . Christ, who obviously had a personal relationship with Abraham, . . .

Julian of York

Chapter and verse, please.

 

[Julian of York]

Please excuse my inability to be clear at times.
I understand your question is: "In what chapter and verse are we informed that Abraham had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ?"
Being as brief as possible, I would like to point out my reasons for making that statement.

1) Genesis 17:1-22 The Lord speaks unto Abram and renews covenant Whom did you think he was speaking to? Who was he in a covenant relationship with? Surely you are not saying that Abram knew God the Father, but not God the Son?
2) Genesis 18:2 The Lord appears before Abram in Mamre along with two angels. The KJV calls them "three men". Remembering Jesus' firm statement that no man hath seen the Father at any time, either this was a lie,a mistake, or it was the Christ. Remember that the demons that were expelled from the Gaderene Demoniac refered to Him as "the Christ of God". They were well aquainted with a visible, Humanoid manifestation of God. And,of course, Abraham's grandson, Jcob, knew Christ well enough to wrestle with Him and limp the rest of his life because of it.
3) Genesis 18:9-13 The Lord rebukes the laughing Sarah while in the form of a Man. He reads Sarah's thoughts, as Christ was able to do in the New Testament.
4) Genesis 18:33 "The Lord went His way..." The Bible makes the statement that God in Human Form walked away from Abrahyam toward Sodom after their conversation. QUESTION: What do you call Gos in Human Form? ANSWER: Christ This is refered to as a Christophony, or pre-incarnate appearence of Christ.
5) John 8:58 "Jesus said unto them,verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am." Christ certainly pre-existed Abraham.
6) THE SMOKING GUN: John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and saw it, and was glad." I consider this to be the prime example of the relationship.personal relationship. of Christ with Abraham.
7)Galatians 3:14 "That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ..." Seems to me indicative of a relationship.
8) James 2:23 "...Abraham believed God...and he was called the Friend of God." Was Abraham friends with only God the Father?
9) John 8:57 "Then said the Jews unto Him,Thou art not yet fifty years old,and hast thou seen Abraham?" Before Abraham was, I am.

Now, in an attitude of humble exposition, I hope you have time to study and consider these Scriptures regarding the personal relationship of Christ with Abraham.
Thank you.

Julian of York
"After that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you." I Peter 5:10

 

[Ormly]

Please excuse my inability to be clear at times.
I understand your question is: "In what chapter and verse are we informed that Abraham had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ?"
Being as brief as possible, I would like to point out my reasons for making that statement.

1) Genesis 17:1-22 The Lord speaks unto Abram and renews covenant Whom did you think he was speaking to? Who was he in a covenant relationship with? Surely you are not saying that Abram knew God the Father, but not God the Son? [/quyote]

God's Son wasn't even born. And I wouldn't say that he even knew God. The fact he is said to be a friend of God shouldn't cause anyone to carry his friendship that far.

2) Genesis 18:2 The Lord appears before Abram in Mamre along with two angels. The KJV calls them "three men". Remembering Jesus' firm statement that no man hath seen the Father at any time, either this was a lie,a mistake, or it was the Christ.

Christ is a title as is the title, messiah. Both titles are never attributed to any of the manifestations of God in the OT.

Remember that the demons that were expelled from the Gaderene Demoniac refered to Him as "the Christ of God". They were well aquainted with a visible, Humanoid manifestation of God.

Could it not be that they knew who Jesus was without any prior knowledge, given Jesus was totally capable of causing them to recognize Him?

And,of course, Abraham's grandson, Jcob, knew Christ well enough to wrestle with Him and limp the rest of his life because of it.

You keep calling the OT manifestation of God, Christ. That is error inasmuch as it is a title. If you wish to call Him the Word, who had a form, I can easily agree. But Jesus?? He needed to be born and was the body prepared for the Word to own.


3) Genesis 18:9-13 The Lord rebukes the laughing Sarah while in the form of a Man. He reads Sarah's thoughts, as Christ was able to do in the New Testament.

4) Genesis 18:33 "The Lord went His way..." The Bible makes the statement that God in Human Form walked away from Abrahyam toward Sodom after their conversation. QUESTION: What do you call Gos in Human Form? ANSWER: Christ This is refered to as a Christophony, or pre-incarnate appearence of Christ.

The Lord, not Jesus. Jesus was human.

5) John 8:58 "Jesus said unto them,verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am." Christ certainly pre-existed Abraham.

To comment would only be to repeat myself.

6) THE SMOKING GUN: John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and saw it, and was glad." I consider this to be the prime example of the relationship.personal relationship. of Christ with Abraham.

Yes. God let him in on what He was going to do.

7)Galatians 3:14 "That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ..." Seems to me indicative of a relationship.

8) James 2:23 "...Abraham believed God...and he was called the Friend of God." Was Abraham friends with only God the Father?
9) John 8:57 "Then said the Jews unto Him,Thou art not yet fifty years old,and hast thou seen Abraham?" Before Abraham was, I am.

Now, in an attitude of humble exposition, I hope you have time to study and consider these Scriptures regarding the personal relationship of Christ with Abraham.
Thank you.

Thank you Julian, I have and in reply, have given ample clear insight as to what you believe as being error. Now you have to give me reasons why I am wrong OR say that I am correct. . . . . That is only fair. . .

 

[Julian of York]

I believe that, after studying your latest post, I have identified where we are at odds with each other. Here are a couple of questions that I am interested in your answer to:

Is Jesus of Nazareth God in the Flesh?
Is Jesus co-equal with, and of the very essence, of the Old Testament Jehovah God of Israel?
Thanks for helping me understand why we are at odds.

Julian of York
"But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man hath appeared,Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regen- eration and renewing of the Holy Ghost,Which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour...that being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." Titus 3:4-7

 

[Steve Petersen]

What were God's statutes and laws that Abraham kept as per Gen 26:5 ?

According to the Mishnah, Abraham kept ALL of the commandments of the Torah.

Kiddushin 4:13

Rabbi Nehorai says:
I leave aside all professions in the world,
and I teach my son only Torah;
for a person eats of its reward in this world,
and the principal endures in the world to come.
And all other professions are not so —
when a person comes into sickness, or into old age, or into suffering,
and is not able to be involved in his work, he dies in hunger.
But the Torah is not so —
but rather it guards him from all evil in his youth,
and gives him finality and hope in his old age;
In his youth what does it say?
"And those who hope in God shall renew their strength."
In his old age what does it say?
"They shall still produce in ripe old age."
Similarly it says by Avraham our Father, peace be upon him —
"And Avraham was old ... and God blessed Avraham in everything."
We find that Avraham our Father performed the whole entire Torah before it had been given,
as it says, "By reason that Avraham listened to my voice,
and kept my safekeeping, my commandments, my statutes and teachings."(Gen 26:5)

 

[Julian of York]

Thank you, my beloved Messianic brother. Do you have input on the identity of the appearences of God in the form of man in the Old Testament? Are you of the opinion that the Christ Jesus is the same Man that wrestled with the patriach Jacob, for example?

Julian of York

 

[Steve Petersen]

Thank you, my beloved Messianic brother. Do you have input on the identity of the appearences of God in the form of man in the Old Testament? Are you of the opinion that the Christ Jesus is the same Man that wrestled with the patriach Jacob, for example?

Julian of York

Could well be. I can't be dogmatic about it though.

 

[Ormly]

It wasn't the Jews Jesus was talking to. Jesus was talking to the Pharisees, Sadduccees and Scribes. All of which happened to be Jews, but not all Jews were these three groups. Context is super important because a lot of replacement theology comes from taking things completely out of context and trying to say that Jesus was talking to all Jews.

He didn't say Jesus was speaking to all Jews and it can't be denied that the religious sects represented the condition of the Jewish state. After all it was them that crucified Jesus and for which God judged that nation. That is a poor testimony for any lover of God. Don't you believe that had the leadership believed the testimony of Jesus, the nation would have followed suit?

 

[Elder 111]

Abraham obviously didn't have the Torah to obey, or even the 10 Commandments. What he did obey was the voice of God, everything God told him to do. Here are a few examples:

Genesis 12:1 & 4a - The Lord had said to Abram, “Leave your country, your people and your father’s household and go to the land I will show you". So Abram left, as the Lord had told him..............

Genesis 17 - Abraham obeyed God's command to be circumcised.

Genesis 22 - Abraham obeyed God's command to sacrifice his son, Isaac.

​

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - even more important than Abraham's obedience to God was his faith in Him. He believed God would do what He said He would do (Romans 4:20-21) and look what happened as a result:

“Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,
and he was called the friend of God"
James 2:23​

The tenants of the ten commandments were known and kept by Abraham.

 

[Ormly]

The tenants of the ten commandments were known and kept by Abraham.

What leads you to believe that <though I do as well>?

 

[Elder 111]

What leads you to believe that <though I do as well>?

1. God is the same always, a known and accepted fact. He will not then have a standard for all of us and another for Abraham.
2. Staring with Cain we seek the laws of the ten Commandments being required of men.
3. God destroyed the world with a flood, for nothing else but sin.
4. Sodom was also destroyed for sin.

If there were no law then then no one could have been guilty of sin.

 

[Ormly]

1. God is the same always, a known and accepted fact. He will not then have a standard for all of us and another for Abraham.
2. Staring with Cain we seek the laws of the ten Commandments being required of men.
3. God destroyed the world with a flood, for nothing else but sin.
4. Sodom was also destroyed for sin.

If there were no law then then no one could have been guilty of sin.

So where is the law when referring to Abraham? I don't follow your drift.

 

[Elder 111]

So where is the law when referring to Abraham? I don't follow your drift.

God called him because kept the law.

 

[Ormly]

God called him because kept the law.

What part?

I will admit that God even chose Abraham because of the character of him. God saw in him righteousness that said: I believe God, I will honor Him as best I can.

 

[Elder 111]

What part?

I will admit that God even chose Abraham because of the character of him. God saw in him righteousness that said: I believe God, I will honor Him as best I can.

All. Just as was required of Israel.(note that thing ceremonial, such as the passover would not have been part of it)
Genesis 17:9
And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
Genesis 18:19
For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
It amazes me that person would think that God required of Abraham and us anything difference than that revealed in His commandments.